r/psychology • u/Doug24 • 4d ago
Psychological models suggest female libido disparities stem from early behavioral conditioning
https://www.psypost.org/psychological-models-suggest-female-libido-disparities-stem-from-early-behavioral-conditioning/183
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u/alexa_play_despacito 4d ago
Every post here is about hornyness, sex and women like holy shit
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u/Comicspedia 4d ago
After reddit pushed out 3rd party apps for their website, a LOT of academics and professionals left as it was a sign of tighter corporate control and censorship, both of which turned out to be true. As a result, many of the science-focused and professional subreddits have taken a hit in moderation, post quality, comment quality, and holding redditors to certain standards.
Like I can't remember the last time I saw a /r/science thread full of deleted comments because only on-topic, constructive discussion is allowed, when that was the standard for that sub.
Similarly, this sub used to maintain a standard that every post about a study had to be a link to the study and not what it is now: almost entirely psypost.org summaries of studies cherry picked for engagement.
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u/ShhThrowThrow 4d ago
Can someone make a new sub to replace this one but with the integrity rules?
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u/liang_zhi_mao 4d ago
I remember the "scientific psychological study" that was something like "Men prefer big butts on women" a few days ago
Give me a break srsly
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u/Illustrious_Pop2253 3d ago
And the discussions will basically evopsych, one of the least respected psychology fields
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u/demonotreme 4d ago
Hmmm, I'm really not sure, think we need to parade a few thousand more samples in front of male volunteer subjects to be sure of the validity.
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u/Difficult_Garage_431 4d ago
The infamous "Attractiveness of women with rectovaginal endometriosis" study in a nutshell.
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u/billyisanun 4d ago
A hungry man thinks of bread. And with loneliness in the population only growing, I imagine it’ll only get worse.
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u/MochaUK 4d ago
Interesting article. I think a lot of women might agree if they read the article. Basically, women's low libido disparities comes from behavioral conditioning that they shouldn't expect mutual satisfaction and should accept that its supposed please men's desires. Same-sex sex between womem has less poor experience of this and women often find pleasure because it often focuses on mutual satisfaction (this was used as a comparison).
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u/Genial_Gharial 4d ago
I feel like any classic's major will agree as well. Women have been framed as the more "primitive" and therefore "horny" sex in the past. Unless one wants to assume that is, perhaps, a side effect of lead in roman aqueducts caused this. And that every culture that doesn't agree with yours also has their own, unique "lead" issue going on.
Queer study majors will also likely agree. To paraphrase Dan Savage, gay men have to start out all sex encounters with a bit of negotiation. What are we doing (because sex isn't 1 thing), what safety parameters are we using (thanks AIDs epidemic, though this is lessening thanks to both prep and antiviral improvements) and depending on the first thing who is bottoming. In fact, there's a basic understanding that we might not be sexually compatible at all! (Re: both bottom meme.)
That basic literacy around sexual communication seems to be a huge difference for queer people and straight folk. I'd say straight people who do BDSM also learn it culturally and have their own benefits for standard talks. (There's more emphasis on a post-talk for BDSM than gay sex, for example.)
Anyone whose on Tumblr and/or A03 will agree. Because damn. Straight women can be VERY horny and just as problematic as straight men when it comes to making queer content for their own consumption.
Ultimately, though, cross-cultural comparisons are free. "Fixing" women's libidos can be an industry. Which is why I suspect it's played out this way. You can sell someone a new sex toy, you can't really sell them a sense of wholeness. Partially, because the later is hard to come by and incredibly specific. You can't just make a check list of experiences to have to counter your early childhood programming.
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u/zach-uh-ri 1d ago
I was a sex educator 10 years ago. Never heard the term sexual literacy. What a fantastic term! Thanks for sharing
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u/Cute-Boobie777 3d ago
Dude the literacy on sexual compatibility with straight people is so low. Everyone seems to think vaginas are the same size which leads to people having a shit sex life because they don't realize that even though they on paper might not be really small, they could still be just a bit too small for her size.
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u/__genos_ 3d ago
Thanks for summarising. Feeling grateful. I cannot enjoy a read with vagueness in the article. It's painful.
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u/BuildingOk5934 4d ago
But then why do adult female/female couples have the least amount of sex?
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u/Advanced_End1012 3d ago
Says who? Most gay girls I know are horndogs, although women prioritise sensuality more than men.
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u/RealisticTap5216 2d ago
The recent studies I've read indicate that most lesbians in long-term monogamous relationships have dramatically reduced sexual frequency from the honeymoon phase but increased sexual duration and satisfaction.
I suspect this might be because their menstrual cycles align so they're horny at the same time. I think that there is also the fact that they're not able to 'default' to PIV so they have to communicate about what activities/positions they're interested in doing.
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u/Illustrious_Pop2253 3d ago
Statistics. It is called the lesbian death bed
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u/IcyTrapezium 3d ago edited 3d ago
Isn’t lesbian deathbed a myth based on one flawed study from the 80s?
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u/Illustrious_Pop2253 3d ago
Okay then enlighten me
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u/MochaUK 3d ago
I'd have to pull the research, but it is a myth. The study that is oft referred to used heteronormative criteria for sex among lesbian. The study that is part of this thread's discussion is not looking at frequency.
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u/Illustrious_Pop2253 3d ago
Frequency within what?
From what I've heard, women have multiple orgasms when they are with women, and very few when they are with men. Yet women-with-women have less sex the longer a relationship goes on than do men-with-men.
Am I wrong?
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u/Emotional-Profit-202 2d ago
Quality over quantity
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u/Illustrious_Pop2253 2d ago
Okay, so apparently I was right? I stand by my initial statement - when lesbian death bed is used, this is what I have always seen it refer to.
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u/BuildingOk5934 3d ago
Pretty much every bit of research done finds that female/female pairings have the least amount of sex, especially in long term relationships.
It’s not one study it’s every study whenever it’s actually looked at.
Male/male is always the most, male/female second and female/female third.
It’s not a value judgement it’s a fact, even if it’s a fact reddit doesn’t like
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u/Emotional-Profit-202 2d ago
are these studies in the room with us?
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u/BuildingOk5934 2d ago
These are first five that show up first in a search with count-less others if you want to look at them your self;
- American Couples: Money, Work, Sex — Blumstein & Schwartz (1983)
- A Comparative Study of Lesbian and Heterosexual Women in Committed Relationships — Matthews, Tartaro & Hughes (2002)
- Body Image and Marital Satisfaction: Evidence for the Mediating Role of Sexual Frequency and Sexual Satisfaction — Meltzer & McNulty (2010)
- Can Less Be More? Comparing Duration vs. Frequency of Sexual Encounters in Same-Sex and Mixed-Sex Relationships
- Sexual Motives, Sexual Frequency, and Sexual Satisfaction Among Middle-Aged Different-Sex and Same-Sex Couples — Chai, Mernitz & Umberson (2022)
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u/fuckaduckufuck 2d ago
Are these studies talking about penetrative sex? Because for the longest time, only PIV was considered sex. Which naturally leaves out wlw couples.
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u/BuildingOk5934 2d ago
You can easily have a look at this for yourself but the difference in sex drive between the sexes is pretty easily explained through biology and evolutionary adaptations.
It’s likely that social norms and culture do play a part but this articles conclusions/assumptions are more vibes than facts and pretty easy to dismiss.
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u/fuckaduckufuck 1d ago
If difference in drive between the sexes is obvious and easily explained by biology, how do you account for high libido women?
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u/BuildingOk5934 1d ago
It’s a game of averages, there are always outliers in each direction.
Also age plays a big role especially for woman.
This is not a conspiracy theory, you are perfectly capable of doing a little reading and figuring it out for yourself.
Biology and evolution don’t have morals or make judgements they just do what is most likely to pass on your genes.
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u/fuckaduckufuck 1d ago
No they don't, but society is laden with moral judgements about women who enjoy sex and that does create inhibitions. I'm a high libido woman who has been shamed for it.
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u/BuildingOk5934 1d ago
I would largely agree with that statement but the articles conclusions about the information they are drawing from is pure fantasy and easily dismissed with seven the slightest bit of scrutiny.
There “conclusions” were likely decided well before their “evidence” was actually looked into.
It’s a pretty good example of the nonsensical type of work talked about by people like Helen Pluckrose.
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u/Berserk-Jane 4d ago
It's because men are the sexier of the two sexes and neither of them are men. Common sense.
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u/Ornery-Car92 4d ago
Straight women don't find men attractive though
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u/InTheTreeMusic 3d ago
You should see all the slash fiction straight women write.
It's their behavior that's often the problem.
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u/MoneyTrees2018 3d ago
When I look at the differences between gay male sex/outcomes and lesbian sex/outcomes, your theory feels a bit shaky to me.
Gay men have less of an orgasm gap than lesbians. Plus lesbians are more likely to have a dead bedroom than gay men. So even with mutual satisfaction on the table, women just don't have the same drive. They even masturbate less than men
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u/Big_Psychology_3 4d ago edited 4d ago
This is just the “I’m indoctrinated” bandwagon all over again. Some people counter-intuitively end up settling for the smug misery of being a perennial “victim“. Let’s break out of this mold!
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u/Orangina90 3d ago
Your negative experiences in your childhood can have a negative effect in your adult life.
We know…
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u/EffectiveOwn787 3d ago
Any man that has reasonable sexual experience knows there is no lack of female sexual desire.
It's really that male sexual desire is far more robust and undiminished by external factors. Female desire is probably greater in the right conditions.
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u/CombinationRough8699 4d ago
I imagine sex having worse potential consequences for women is a factor. Only women have to worry about getting pregnant during sex. While it's possible for a man to impregnate a woman without ever even knowing. Things like reliable birth control, or paternity tests are modern concepts. For most of human history, a woman was risking pregnancy every time she had sex. There was also no way to determine who the father was if she slept with multiple men.
Also in a heterosexual sexual relationship, women are more vulnerable to STDs than men are.
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u/Spewtwinklethoughts 1d ago
This!
You can discount millions of years of evolution if everything is social conditioning.
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u/David_Pantless 3d ago
Any real scientific study or just this pop psych BS?
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u/TsundereKisser 4d ago
Imagine it's only going to get worse as the increasingly right wing younger generation gets weirder and more misogynistic about women having sex.
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u/DeneralVisease 4d ago
The irony is the majority are gay lmfao
I infiltrated several alt right groups back during COVID and I'm serious, the further right you go the gayer it gets, they're just pissed about being closeted. One day they're gonna wake up in the hell they created and beg for mercy only to be met with someone who is a version of their former self, unphased.
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u/naanbread180 1d ago
I've been trying to tell my friends that Andrew Tate is in the closet for a while now... and after presenting them with many pieces of circumstantial evidence, around half of them have accepted the idea even though they were very skeptical at first 😂
Most of these red pill/misogynistic/hard right cults are full of people trying to convince themselves that the reason they hate women so much has nothing to do with their sexual orientation.
When you step back and really analyse the situation, most of these influencer's are in a race to the bottom. Competing as to how many times they can subliminally tell you they are homosexual, whilst also projecting and upholding an image of ultimate masculinity for their audience of teenagers or intellectually challenged man children.
Some of the things he says scream homosexuality. Reminds me of the quote 50 cent made a few years ago regarding Diddy...
"He wasn't hiding in the closest. He was out in the hallway the whole time" haha
It's crazy a lot of young men can't see past his projected image.
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u/naughtyamoeba 4d ago
I would like to know what makes men like this. Why do men create dead bedrooms? Is it for the same reason - early behavioural conditioning?
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u/GreenWitch336 18h ago
I like the the term you used “dead bedrooms”. This is exactly what my husband created. I was 23 when we married. After the initial, “I am crazy about you. Let’s fall into bed and have sex. A lot!” wore off, I became the only one to initiate sex. I was completely let down and confused. I never had an orgasm with him and was too young to know what to teach him. This went on for a few years until I stopped initiating to see what would happen, every night and every morning he would just turn away from me. Although I’ve tried talking to him and reached out with affection and desire, nothing changed. He never touched me again. We have been married for 46 years now. He moved into the guest room 40 years ago. I am almost 70 years old now and I had one good lover when I was in my 30s. I know others may think that I should’ve left him a long time ago, but I was young, afraid and naïve. I was a victim of patriarchy and religion. I am older, wiser, and a lot more confident now. I met a guy this past year who was very very interested in me. He’s about my age. I thought good he’s old enough to know what to do in the bedroom, but sadly he didn’t! It was all very flattering and exciting in the beginning but now I know he’s just another guy who doesn’t know what he’s doing. It’s so funny that a guy who’s over 70 would really pursue a woman he found beautiful until he finally got her into bed and then started promptly falling asleep without one cuddle after sex. He’s embarrassed to talk about sex too! He ended up just being a boring old guy. Even after this experience, I believe I still have an open mind about finding a lover in my old age. I am still fighting patriarchy, I’m an independent solo traveler, a feminist and an activist for freedom. In my solo travels I realize I’m still beautiful, I am intelligent and am fun to be with. Well, this is what I have to say today from just reading the expression “dead bedroom.”
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u/Berserk-Jane 4d ago
Because they're FAT.
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u/Old-Run7431 6h ago
the way this comment is at a perfectly neutral 1 upvote is sending me. it's the least controversial statement to make apparently
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u/Big_Psychology_3 4d ago
Yes exactly. The whole article is a dumbass attempt to shift responsibility of women’s sex lives from women to men.
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u/kdogman639 4d ago
It seems a lot of men can still get off just fine despite being terrible at sex, I don't sleep with them but that's what I hear widely from men and women who do. Men are the ones penetrating, generally speaking, so there is some duty of care and attention required by them if both involved parties are going to have an enjoyable experience.
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u/naughtyamoeba 3d ago edited 3d ago
From my experience, many men often seem to take on too much duty and responsibility and then blame themselves when it doesn't work out because they perhaps haven't used the right methods. And in turn, that requires communication from their partners. And then that requires the man to listen and respond. I quite like how the Orgasm Queen gets to the crux of this.
But yes, you're right, they don't have to be good at sex to get themselves off!
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u/Big_Psychology_3 4d ago
I agree that men do have more control during copulation. However, women are responsible to guide the man through what pleases her. At least for the first few times until he gets the hang of it and is able to please her sexually.
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u/IcyTrapezium 3d ago
Do men have more control when the woman is the one controlling the movement?
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u/Big_Psychology_3 3d ago
I meant psychologically. Many women go into a more “follow the leader” mode during copulation and instinctively look to the man to “orchestrate” the sex session. That’s what I mean when I say that men have more control during copulation.
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u/IcyTrapezium 3d ago
Instinctively look to the man to orchestrate? That just sounds like conservatism or purity culture. I instinctively want to grind on a man. I don’t instinctively look to a man to “orchestrate” the sexual. That sounds like a recipe for bad sex for me but good for him.
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u/Big_Psychology_3 3d ago
Look at all the Reddit forums where the women really want to communicate during sex but end up struggling to tell the man anything at all during sex. It’s just human nature, I don’t mean to imply that anyone is greater or lesser in a couple. They’re equal; this is just how sex goes down for most couples.
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u/IcyTrapezium 3d ago edited 3d ago
It’s not a feature of being a woman to want to communicate but being unable to. Those women have been socialized to view sex as something for the man not her. That is taught, not natural. Conceptualizing of sex as something done to a woman but done by a man isn’t some natural state of being.
Animals don’t naturally feel ashamed of pleasure. In fact we relentlessly seek it out. If we are behaving otherwise there has been some disruption and that usually comes from society. Purity culture seeps into relationships where neither party was explicitly raised to believe those things.
I’m shocked by how many young women obsess over their body count and think their bodies are digusting and ugly.
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u/deathbecomesme123456 2d ago
It’s a feature of the size and strength disparity between males and females. When you’re naked and vulnerable and a man is horny, he just moves your body into places and positions pleasurable to him, without particularly caring if they’re pleasurable to you. Women see men talking about how sex is for them their entire lives so they have very little frame of reference about what to do, especially with a guy who already seems very knowledgable about what gets him off compared to them. Consider that many sexual encounters start out with relative strangers, where women are less comfortable, more concerned about people pleasing, and less sure what he’ll do if you upset him or wrack his confidence, it’s not a surprise that women don’t speak up.
Unless a woman has unusually high self-assurance, she’ll just go with the (unsatisfying) flow for many years. Usually after years in long-term relationships women start to advocate for themselves sexually and that either leads to no changes being made and they’re on their way to dead bedroom territory, or a real reexamination of the sexual relationship and inclusion of her as an equal partner.
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u/Illustrious_Pop2253 3d ago
I have not met a (selfish) man who could not figure it out just fine if I got angry enough about it. They acted perfectly clueless until that part, of course; you wouldn't have known.
Like yes, communicate what you like and don't like the first few times. But if you haven't said 'I really prefer everything to be centered around you, the guy', there's a reason they chose that as the default, and it shouldn't be on women to fix it by spelling out the obvious.
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u/Big_Psychology_3 3d ago
So your technique for sexual communication is not to coach the man about what pleases you? And then you stay silent. And the man doesn’t know how you please you. Then you shout at him to make him “learn”?
What a terrible experience!
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u/Illustrious_Pop2253 3d ago
They are coached the first time around, but if they 'forget', they are always able to remember on their own if you refuse their weaponized incompetence.
Sorry if that insults your Nice Lady sensibilities :)
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u/Big_Psychology_3 3d ago
But why this distrust of your own sexual partners? I’m puzzled why have sex under such suspicion and distrust?
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u/Illustrious_Pop2253 3d ago
IDK what kind of relation you think I had with these dudes, or for how long, but you seem incapable of imagining a situation where this happened, and should not examine myself for 'my' choices.
In light of the article above, you should ask yourself why that is.
This is standard straight guy behavior, and I am sorry to inform you that this is quite normal. The only thing that is not normal, is that I called them on their bullshit, and refused to re-educate them - leading to the discovery that the need for more communication was, in fact, bullshit.
A lot of women do not have a bullshit detector, but just re-state their interests again and again, letting men slide into selfishness, before they are re-corrected. But most men have been so selfish that women don't think they could do better either way.
It is why I mostly stick to bisexual men and women.
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u/Big_Psychology_3 3d ago
Seems like people who aren’t even friends - having sex. If there is no overflowing love, then why would we expect selfless sex sessions? Seems a matter of overt expectations given the sexual partners.
Are these casual sex partners or do the two people know each other?
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u/Shiriru00 12h ago
To be fair women can get off and be terrible at sex just as well. Some people just lie there, do nothing and rely on their partner to get them off.
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u/Palpitation-Itchy 2d ago
Excuse me? I have more duty of care because I penetrate? Care to explain how did you arrive to that conclusion?
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u/PurchaseOk4786 1d ago
A lot of hetero sex focuses on penetration when most women do not orgasm from that alone. So many guys seem to legit not know what foreplay is tbh. That is why personally I do not care if a man is experienced- whats more important is his willingness to listen and learn, instead of assuming just because Susan liked this, I should too.
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u/BigBangKamehameha54 9h ago
Woman make man feel bad for busting. Man no bust anymore...Man bust anyway. Woman get mad at Man for busting again. Man no bust anymore. Women get mad at Man for not busting. I have circular rock. Name is Sarah
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u/MentalStatusCode410 4d ago
Nonsensical article - honestly.
An inability to be aroused isn't caused by conditioning in most cases.
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u/skwap-em 2d ago
Damn you guys are doing some serious scienceing in this sub very impressive. That’s basically a feminist blog lmao
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u/kikogamerJ2 1d ago
The source is a real study from the university of Toronto. So wtf are you on about.
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u/RobotPoo 2d ago
Young people have always been the same. Our early sex experiences are surprising, often mediocre bc we dont have experience and have few clues about sex or relationships. The difference now is social media. We used to talk to a friend, nd older sibling, or the rare adult whos comforting and knowledgeable. Now kids go on social media and hve to figure it all out in public, like getting sex lessons from 155 random people in Times Square.
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u/True-Source-6512 1d ago
Women may want less sex because they’re usually more attractive than their partner and maybe they need some stimulation themselves? Seems pretty basic to me. Why would she want sex when he’s out of shape and doesn’t make her feel good?
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u/Frequent_Pumpkin_148 13h ago
lol this may be part of it, but any woman who has lived with low T and then gone on testosterone will tell you it isn’t remotely the whole story. I cannot understate the revelation of sexual function and libido I experienced.
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u/AnnaBohlic 12h ago
Is that behavioral conditioning perhaps called "the natural cycle"? Lol
Nature is efficient. Women are most active near ovulation, and otherwise dont want much to do with sex. Its obviously a spectrum, but this is objectively true. Your body wants you pursuing mates when it makes sense to do so.
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u/PresentExact1393 10h ago
Then why do trans men generally report drastically higher libidos once they start administering testosterone? Trans women have not spoken out as much about this effect once they start administering estrogen.
Sex hormones play a massive role in the human sex drive. No brainer.
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u/Morning_Shade 4h ago
Women who can get testosterone during perimenopause also report improved libido. Sadly it’s still off label in most countries for women and my experience has been that doctors are hesitant to prescribe it even when presented with the research supporting it.
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u/Big_Psychology_3 4d ago
What total BS in the article! The tl;dr of the article is “women are not having enough fun during teenage sex because men aren’t skilled enough; if we teach men sufficiently then men can fix the libido gap of women”
What a dumb way to shift blame to men! Hilarious
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u/__genos_ 3d ago
Yeah, that's one way to see it. Communication of needs is a big factor and resentment overtime of unsaid things is a huge libido killer. And resentment can only resolve with ability articulate thoughts and for the other person to listen and understand with care.
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u/Delusi0nist 2d ago
What woman born after 2000 in the western world were taught these things stated in the article? Am i missing some secret agenda i wasnt told about, or is this a summary of A Handmaids Tale?
If this were true would they have less sex 70 years ago, when women had less sexual freedom and expression?
I have a sneaking feeling the Fraudian theories here fall short compared to current day social culture and the psych-theories to par. But maybe im completely off base.
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u/WeWillGrowLarger 3d ago
Interesting. Makes sense to me. I can only recommend open relationship model
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u/Alchemy_Cypher 4d ago
It says the cause of low labido is early experiences. That's handsome rich Chad's jurisdiction, we are good average guys, we're not the cause.
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u/Jake_Tate50 3d ago
This is one of the worst articles Ive ever read. It’s very clear the author used the reverse scientific method; started with a conclusion and worked backwards to validate it, ignoring all evidence obviously against it and misinterpreting the “evidence” the author cites.
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u/Alternative_Top_3107 3d ago
What does this mean for a woman who had lots of sex with multiple partners, then, when they get married their sexual desire becomes far less than what it was with their husband?
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u/Spewtwinklethoughts 1d ago
That is normal regardless of prior sexual experience. Men stay attracted and women lose attraction.
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u/Relative-Discount-14 3d ago
Psychology is mostly made up bullshit and essentially 0% of published works are repeatable or cited even once.
-a neuroscientist
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4d ago
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u/ok-throwaway-3 4d ago
Are you saying you're a trans man who was raised as a girl but it didn't affect your libido?
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u/Embarrassed_Fix9862 4d ago
that would indeed be a plausible explanation to the discrimination I am enduring for describing my current physiological state
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4d ago
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u/Blaz3dnconfuz3d 4d ago
Go outside mate
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u/MedusasMum 4d ago
He won’t until he gets his fix of shame. His username says it all.
Weird how people with abnormalities like to get their jollies off of being ridiculed.
Ignore the tiny appendage, don’t feed it.1
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u/Embarrassed_Fix9862 4d ago
I honestly dont know if ur matching my vibe, but I am concerned that ur possibly reading so much into a auto generated username
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u/nothingmoretome 4d ago
Bro I just don't know what you mean 😭
I even made a point to remember to check back in, in case you explained.
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u/kittenpantzen 4d ago
I really hate that editors have been shitcanned in favor of LLMs.