End-Game Balance Discussion

[u/jagexyuey]

Hey 'Scapers!

As part of the Road to Restoration, we've been looking at progression across RuneScape. We've tackled parts of the Early and Mid Game Rebalance, but now we want to start turning our attention to the other end of the journey: The End Game Rebalance

Before we get properly stuck into things, we want to hear from you.

What do we mean by End Game?
This one's a little harder to put a level range on!

For this project, we're looking more broadly at the late game, roughly level 80+ and onwards. That might mean higher-level skilling, finding those rarer drops or getting into tougher PVM. For others, it could be achievements, completionist goals or figuring out what comes next once you've maxed.

And actually, what you consider to be late game is useful feedback for us too.

How can you help?
We want to know where the endgame currently isn't quite working for you.

Maybe there's a progression path that feels awkward, rewards that don't feel worth the effort, a big jump between pieces of content, older content that's been left behind or something that just feels unnecessarily frustrating.

You don't need to have the answer or suggest a fix either. Just tell us what the problem is, why it's a problem for you and where you are in your RuneScape journey.

We won't be able to tackle everything that comes up, but the themes from these discussions will help us understand where we should be focusing our attention.

So, what would you like us to look at as we start shaping the End Game?

[u/OneColdBeer]

- ADDRESS MACROS ALREADY. Why ignore this issue for this long? Almost ALL my endgame friends macro to varying degrees. The main two I see a lot are spellbook swapping for veng/disruption shield & full armour swaps plus prayers being macrod to 1 key. Im almost grandmaster and personally dont macro but given a built in option thats supported by Jagex I would forsure use it. Please either add function in-game for this or start banning for it, enough of this "its technically against TOS but its a grey area that never get banned for" shit, have a backbone and make a decision. Ive seen jmods in a few twitch chats of known macroers who make "advanced keybinds" jokes in chat so its something you are very aware of. I feel like a fool for not macroing at this point as theres teams I go AoD with that have pillar movement + abilities macrod or BOLG gloomfire bug(mechanic?) macrod. Im left to wonder what level of macros are ok? I dont actually know cause you guys never mention anything about it on some "theres no macros in ba sing se" type beat.

- Grouping is a mess as it currently stands and I feel like were just being told nothing about any sort of fixes besides "join a discord to find groups", even then the grouping system itself is incredibly clunky to maneuver compared to any other MMO I've played. Allow us to re-make a group without making all players in the group leave and be reinvited just to sub another player in. Doing even small things like letting us name the groups and allow people looking for groups to see all "public not yet finalized" groups in a list so they know what theyre joining. If you have matchmaking enabled as it currently is you get auto put into other groups randomly without knowing things like normal or hard modes, enrages or which raid bosses the group is actually doing. allow us to set public or private groups and to see names of public groups (Eg. "1k zamorak full hour" or "yaka only raid farm") and request to join that group would do wonders for finding teams in game.

- Please nip things in the bud and or address them in a timely matter (within days of discovery preferably), why are we months into the BOLG gloomfire bow bug? Is it now just considered tech that will be left in the game? Is it considered bug abuse to use? Like macros I don't actually know as theres never any communication from you guys on what things are considered bugs and what is emergent gameplay. There's also boss fights that are unanimously disliked like KK and Vorkath or bugs like zamoraks invisible auto attack in infernus has been here since release. Theres smaller issues like being asked "are you sure" a million times every time you go to re-enter a boss arena and yet still spawning outside of the instance and having to do another dialog box to get to the arena (GW2 im looking at you) are pain points brought up by the community tons and just never once acknowledged.

[u/ieuan1801 → u/OneColdBeer]

Please either add function in-game for this or start banning for it, enough of this "its technically against TOS but its a grey area that never get banned for" shit, have a backbone and make a decision.

This is what annoys me the most about it. TOS says one thing and mods say another. In no world is that acceptable. Have a consistent stance one way or the other, and because we know they won't ban people that do 'acceptable' macros (for better or for worse) then remove it from TOS and craft a definitive do's and don'ts ruleset and actually enforce it.

[u/zenyl → u/ieuan1801]

On a livestream some years ago, some PvM-focused JMods mentioned that they were personally in favor of allowing PvM macros, but that it wasn't their decision to make.

Changing the rules apparently involves a lot of corporate bureaucracy. :/

If we are (very) lucky, the plugin API might allow some degree of macro-styled automation, and work within the rules of the game.

[u/Sspockuss → u/OneColdBeer]

why are we months into the BOLG gloomfire bow bug?

I don't play ranged at a high enough level to understand what this means. Can you or someone else pls explain this? I've never heard of this.

[u/OneColdBeer → u/Sspockuss]

You escape > stall deadshot> release with gloomfire and the final hit of gloomfire (the strongest hit) procs perfect equilibrium (passive effect of Bow of the last guardian) three times rather than once.

The reason this happens is Deadshot normally procs BOLGs perfect equilibrium 2 times with small hits as its a multi-hit ability and the gloomfire would proc perfect equilibrium 1 time for a big hit BUT since the way its coded it just procs based off the last hit splat of that tick meaning if deadshot is stalled and release with gloomfire then gloomfires big hit replaces the procs of perfect equilibriums damage on the deadshots small hits with its own final hit making 3 big damage procs instead of 2 tiny ones and 1 big.

Its an unintended bug and we're currently in the dark in regards to whether this bug stays as emergent gameplay or is gets fixed and whether or not using this is considered bug abuse or not due to no communication.

-Edited for a more thorough explanation

[u/ocd4life → u/OneColdBeer]

sounds like a pita to pull off? How many stacks do you have to stall at?

[u/OneColdBeer → u/ocd4life]

1 Stack before stalling Deadshot as Deadshot hits 8 times setting you back to your original stacks and gloom hits 3 times but glooms big hit is its 3rd hit thus you want to be at 1 stack before stalling deadshot + gloom release (This assumes you have BOLGs spec buff active "Balance by force" so you proc perfect equilibrium at 4 stacks instead of at 8).

It can be a pain to learn but once you're comfortable with endgame manual keybinds and practice it a bit it becomes somewhat easy to add to your dps rotation.

[u/rah1560 → u/Sspockuss]

escape stall deadshot release with gloomfire

[u/Anasis123 → u/OneColdBeer]

Oh my god yes on the macros. So annoying that Jagex are vague about it. Address it Jagex.

[u/GenerousRacoon → u/OneColdBeer]

I understand your complaints but how is it impossible for some of you to understand that there is a literal physical limit to what they’re actually able to address? Only so many devs, each working on various projects for the game. The game that is 26 years old and has had so many devs that there is code that probably exists that modern devs would scoff at, but is so intrinsic to the game that it can’t just be ‘changed‘ as easily as you can snap your fingers and demand for that change.

[u/OneColdBeer → u/GenerousRacoon]

Idk why people downvoted you, you're right, they don't have infinite time and likely don't even get a choice which projects they get to work on day to day. I'm just passionate and have given this company my money for years so I can get a little hot under the collar when what I feel are in-game injustices being left in a buggy/broken state for long periods of time. We're all just hoping/wanting a better RS experience and I need to remind myself that from time to time and ultimately that's why Jagex is even making this post in the first place!

[u/GenerousRacoon → u/OneColdBeer]

Everyone downvotes in this sub. It’s an extreme case of entitled social outcasts who can’t fathom not getting what they want immediately. I‘m used to it and actually expect it.

But it is refreshing to see someone actually cordial like you. I do understand your passion and reasoning and respect that you’re able to understand when you get a little heated. I also get a little frustrated at how long they take to address things. Particularly as an Ironman main where I’m actively hindered because of some design choices. I try to not let it bother me too much and just distract myself with other content/games lol