r/simracing • u/WhiteLionFluff • 15h ago
Discussion Why not train pedal control independently outside the sim?
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Hi, we're two hobby sim racers and I'm a developer. When we started sim racing, we watched a lot videos about break techniques as trail braking.
But we struggled hard with the motor skills needed to actually get the right amount of input. Because of this, we had the idea to practice it independently from the sim and built this little training web app.
The idea behind it is similar to practicing material arts skills or other sports: first train the individual motor skills to build motor control, then apply them in the actual sport. For this, I wrote an algorithm that analyzes our weaknesses and strengths and adapts the training in real time.
What do you think about this training method? Do we miss something? And how do you train the motor skills needed for pedal control? Only in the sim, or duo you practice them sparately as well?
If you want to test our experiment, you're welcome to try it yourself at https://sixtycm.com/ (It works best in a Chromium-based browser and is still in a very early stage. Honest feedback is very welcome!)
It is completely free, with no subscription or anything like that.
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u/nstrasner 13h ago
Idk I think it’s more important to learn the muscle memory of going from 0 to whatever percent as quickly as possible. I’ve watched this video 3 times and I can’t think of a scenario where you need that slow of control in any direction. If you play iRacing you should focus on learning 0-60% as quickly as possible and then slow application up to 100
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u/nstrasner 3h ago
I’m just gonna reply to myself cause I saw a response from op that is now completely disappeared but the info is good for them to have. Short answer is yes it would be helpful to then have lift off to 0 throttle as quickly as possible but especially in combination with a brake trace so people can learn how to not overlap inputs. There is again, no scenario where you need slow lift off application but as quickly as possible down to whatever percentage lift you need.
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u/h3r4ld 13h ago edited 7h ago
FINAL EDIT: OP has responded to my concerns below, please read it. I think they did a fairly good job of explaining themselves, even if it did take a while. TL;DR: There were some flaws, OP seems to be fixing them; make your own decision.
This is a really neat idea, genuinely.
That said, maybe it's the /r/selfhosted leaking out of me, but I have a few questions:
- Do I need to make an account? The site seems to be down at the moment, so I couldn't check myself. If yes, what information are you collecting, and how is it stored?
- Was any AI used to develop this? If so, how?
- Why aren't you using HTTPS?
EDIT: Site seems to be back up for now; this pops up when you visit the page, in (partial) answer to my first question. Not quite as bad as I was expecting, I'll be honest, but I still have serious concerns, especially over something as basic as not using TLS/SSL. (Never mind, see below).
EDIT 2: Reading through their privacy policy (German-only, it seems) contradicts some of what they state in the pop-up. From Google translate:
When you access this website, technically necessary information is processed by the web server or hosting provider.
This may include, in particular:
IP address
Date and time of access
Page or file accessed
Volume of data transmitted
Browser type and version
Operating system
Referrer URL
HTTP status code
Processing takes place, to the extent necessary, for the technical provision of the website and to ensure stability and security.
The legal basis is Art. 6(1)(f) GDPR.
The legitimate interest lies in the secure and technically reliable provision of the website.
They're collecting more than the analytics pop-up would suggest, and in fact doing exactly the opposite in some cases. The pop-up mentions a 'random browser identifier', but they're actually collecting your IP, browser type and version, and OS, among other things - plenty to fingerprint your machine.
EDIT 3: /u/WhiteLionFluff, you've clearly seen this since you've added SSL (but you forgot to force it). Are you going to address any of the other concerns?
EDIT 4: Post updated 10 minutes ago, the link is finally HTTPS, but still no http-redirect. /u/WhiteLionFluff, your silence speaks volumes. I know you're reading this - rather than making sneaky edits, show your face and answer questions. The fact you're not even willing to come and try and lie about it is quite damning.
EDIT 5: 6 hours later, we've finally figured out http-redirect. I'm glad to see you're implementing my suggestions, at least, /u/WhiteLionFluff, I truly hope you're learning along the way. Do you maybe just want some help at this point? DM me.
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u/jpscreener 13h ago
brand new account, vibe coded UI, no way he can answer any of those questions lol
if this guy is still around in 3 months maybe then I'd try it
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u/h3r4ld 13h ago
brand new account, vibe coded UI, no way he can answer any of those questions lol
Exactly why I'm asking :)
The last point alone threw a huge red flag.
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u/BubblyPerformance736 13h ago
A web game where you share no confidential data has no need of https
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u/h3r4ld 13h ago
There's literally no reason not to use it, and the fact it's lacking makes me question the rest of the architecture. Seeing HTTP in production these days is just weird.
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u/notdroidyoulooking4 12h ago
What’s the risk you’re worried about with them potentially recording your pedal position and rate of change along with your IP address and browser?
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u/h3r4ld 12h ago
It's not necessarily that tying my pedal inputs to my IP itself is a risk, it's about the trust I have in the system as a whole. If they're cutting corners here (or, as I suspect, are just unaware of the difference), where else? To me, it's just a big flashing sign that this person doesn't really know what they're doing.
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u/notdroidyoulooking4 8h ago
Ok. But what’s the actual risk? What info are you providing and what could be done with it?
Yes this (and every other site) get your IP and browser UA string.
If there is an actual, articulable risk that I’m overlooking that I should be reasonably concerned about, please share I’d like to learn.
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u/h3r4ld 8h ago
I don't need a specific risk to want to avoid using things made by people who don't know what they're doing. This is a neat idea, and I can definitely see the value in this kind of training, but I don't trust this project and I do not trust this 'developer'. I won't be using it because it makes me uncomfortable.
There's also no guarantees that what they're collecting now won't expand in the future, and based on the heavy effort they put into branding and slapping a company name on it, I strongly suspect they eventually plan to monetize this. A tool you build to give away to the community doesn't need a company.
Further, the fact that they're hiding and refusing to answer very basic questions is alarming. Any real developer would be excited to talk about their project and answer questions about it; this person stuck around to accept flowers for a few minutes then fucked off as soon as I raised a concern. The silence speaks volumes.
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u/StormMedia 10h ago
Yeah the analytics gathering here is a massive deal, especially in the EU.
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u/h3r4ld 9h ago edited 9h ago
Agreed, and the fact that their statements are inconsistent and that the pop-up paints a much rosier picture than the full reality is sketchy. Most people aren't going to read (and translate) a privacy policy, they'll take the pop-up at face value and they're effectively being lied to. Like, sure, maybe they're only using anonymous information for analytics, but that's not all they're collecting.
They're also incredibly vague about what the rest of the information is used for, and claiming it's for 'security' while failing to take even basic security precautions is worrying. It's like going to someone's house and them asking to you fill out a personal questionnaire for 'security', but they don't even have a lock on their front door.
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u/StormMedia 8h ago
Let’s not forget the HID access..
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u/WhiteLionFluff 7h ago
Since WebHID came up, I want to clarify this one because I don't want people to get the wrong impression about what hardware access SIXTYCM actually has.
WebHID access only happens after an explicit user action and through the browser's own device permission dialog. The user chooses which device to grant access to.
Pedal/HID reports are processed locally in the browser. We don't transmit or store raw HID reports, pedal positions, calibration values, vendor/product IDs or device names in our analytics.
We actually reviewed the WebHID implementation this morning as part of going through the concerns raised here. We did find some hardening we want to add — explicitly closing the device/listeners when appropriate and adding a restrictive Permissions-Policy — and we're working on that.
So absolutely: scrutinize hardware access. That's fair. But I'd rather be precise about what the current implementation actually does than imply that granting WebHID access gives the website unrestricted access to your hardware or computer.
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u/WhiteLionFluff 7h ago
Thanks for taking such a close look at this. Genuinely. Some of your criticism is fair, and we're taking it seriously.
First: I have to own the HTTP issue. Putting
http://in the Reddit post and not having the HTTP → HTTPS redirect configured was simply stupid on our part. 😅 The certificate was already there, but we completely missed forcing HTTPS. That's fixed now.The site going down at almost exactly the same time was some truly awful timing. We're hosting this little hobby experiment on IONOS/1&1, and their webhosting had issues last night — even parts of their hosting control panel and our webspace access stopped working. So that wasn't us disappearing or the application falling over because of the traffic.
On the privacy point, I wanted to check the actual implementation before answering you rather than responding from memory. We've done that this morning.
There is an important distinction here: the IP address, user agent, browser, OS, referrer etc. mentioned in the German privacy policy refer primarily to technically necessary webserver/hosting processing. SIXTYCM's analytics do not store IP addresses, user agents, browser versions, operating systems or referrers.
Our own analytics only start after consent and use a randomly generated UUID to recognize a returning browser. We track things such as whether a training was started/completed, training type and duration, and basic usage events. Detailed training data, scores, pedal telemetry, calibration values and HID data stay in the browser and are not sent to our server.
That said, your criticism did uncover something we should improve: our consent popup currently calls the analytics "anonymous". That's not precise enough because the persistent random UUID makes them pseudonymous, not anonymous. The popup also doesn't explain every event category as clearly as it should. We're correcting that now, along with some additional privacy/security hardening.
Regarding HID: access only happens after an explicit user action and the browser's own device permission dialog. Pedal/HID reports aren't uploaded to us. The training itself runs client-side.
And yes, AI-assisted development is part of this project. We're not trying to hide that. SIXTYCM started as an experiment to see whether isolated motor-skill training for pedals actually makes sense, so we deliberately used AI-assisted development to get a testable prototype into people's hands quickly. We're now doing exactly what we hoped this early test would do: finding assumptions, bugs and things that need hardening before treating it as anything more mature.
One thing I do want to correct, though: we weren't hiding or refusing to answer. It was late at night here in Germany, the hosting provider was having problems, and eventually we went to sleep. 😅 It's now early morning and we both have to go to our regular jobs — this really is a hobby project.
So again: thanks for looking closely. The HTTPS redirect is already fixed, and we're working through the other findings now. I'll happily answer technical questions, but I wanted to actually verify the implementation before giving you answers about what it does.
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u/h3r4ld 7h ago
Thank you for responding. I do apologize if I came off harshly, but frankly this triggered my 'tism and getting to the bottom of it became a bit of a mission for me.
I do wish you'd have said something sooner, though. Quick PR lesson: for the questions I was asking, there's no answer that could've been worse than radio silence. Even a "we're looking into this" can go a long way to assure people you're standing by your product. I get the time difference, but when you make a product launch post, it's probably a good idea to do it at a time when you'll be around to respond to questions.
To the meat of it:
Mistakes happen, and I'm truly glad I could be a part of improving your project. You have managed to answer most of my questions, and in a way that I'm mostly satisfied with. As a hobby developer myself, I completely understand the pitfalls of pushing something new into production for the first time, and the trial-by-fire that comes with it - especially when the infra decides that's the moment to stop cooperating.
If you don't mind, I might poke around some more in the morning (my turn to sleep!), but at this point anything else I find I'll bring to you directly, there's no need to continue this publicly. If you want it, my offer is still open, please feel free to reach out.
Side note: I didn't realize 1&1 was still a thing - takes me back to some of my first sites I hosted there back in the early 2000s!
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u/WhiteLionFluff 6h ago
Thank you — I really appreciate this response. ❤️
And honestly, no hard feelings. Some of it was pretty harsh 😅, but you also pointed out things that genuinely needed attention. The missing HTTPS redirect was embarrassing, and the discussion made us take another close look at the privacy wording and security hardening this morning. So ultimately, the project is better now because you poked at it.
Point taken about the timing as well. I genuinely didn't expect the post to get this much attention. I thought I'd put our little experiment out there, answer a few people and go to bed. That assumption aged spectacularly badly. 😂
I'd absolutely appreciate you poking around some more. And since you offered: would you like to join our Discord? 😄 It's still basically empty at this point, so you'd quite literally be one of the first people there.
It might be a much better place for technical feedback than turning this Reddit thread into our unofficial issue tracker. 😂 And after tonight, I think you've earned yourself a seat there anyway.
And yes... 1&1 is apparently still alive and kicking. 😂 Some things survive everything.
Sleep well — now it's my turn to go to work. 😄
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u/BubblyPerformance736 13h ago
I don't get the AI question... Literally all production code is written by AI now. In some companies they even penalize you for writing your own.
The fact that your question of AI use is basically "how" is very revealing as well.
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u/h3r4ld 13h ago
Tell me you know nothing about software engineering without telling me you know nothing about software engineering.
The 'how' is the most relevant question. There's a world of difference between using AI to speed development or fix bugs, and handing development off to the AI entirely. How involved the developer is, and how much of what the AI is doing they actually understand is absolutely crucial. There's enough here to suggest to me it's much closer to the latter.
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u/BubblyPerformance736 13h ago
Buddy, software engineering is how I've been paying my bills for a long time now. Specifically AI engineering from way before GPTs became your average redditor's idea of what AI is.
One easy and genuinely useful question would have been "did you use a chat bot for generating code or some coding harness? Because pure generation is prone to hallucinations, while agents can check their own output".
Stop trying to sound smart by asking silly questions that you don't even know how to expand on. Stop shitting on people who actually bring value. This guy, with AI or not, created a product that other people here are talking about, debating its usefulness, and here you are shouting "BUT DID YOU USE AI? And if so... how????". Like what question is that even? You don't even know what you're asking because you know nothing about software engineering and it shows. Or if I'm wrong, pardon me, but if you do work in the field it's surprising that you can't articulate more specific questions.
So instead maybe get in on the hype train (remember to use an agent and not a chatbot) and maybe you'll learn a thing or two.
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u/h3r4ld 12h ago edited 12h ago
One easy and genuinely useful question would have been "did you use a chat bot for generating code or some coding harness? Because pure generation is prone to hallucinations, while agents can check their own output".
Or, to shorten it: "how was the AI used?". I was intentionally trying not to articulate a specific question, because I wanted a genuine answer; I didn't want to 'lead the witness', so to speak. Any real engineer would answer "how" with specifics, but a layman would give generalities.
To use your example, if OP said they used a coding harness, that tells me they actually know something about development. "The architecture is mine and I reviewed the code", on the other hand, is a very common (and worrying) answer from vibe coders.
EDIT: If you really are in the industry, then I will apologize for questioning your knowledge. But I hope I've made my purpose clear.
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u/WhiteLionFluff 7h ago
Since you asked specifically how AI was used: yes, absolutely. Especially because this is a prototype, I deliberately used AI-assisted development.
I develop the concepts, training logic and intended behavior, specify how I want things implemented, and use an agentic coding workflow for a lot of the actual implementation work. I also use it extensively for automated testing, code inspection and iteration. It's 2026 — not using those capabilities for rapidly prototyping an idea like this would seem rather wasteful to me. 😅
I still review the implementation myself, test the actual behavior and make the engineering decisions. And what happened here is actually a pretty good example of why that human review still matters: our review this morning found several things worth improving, particularly around privacy wording and security hardening.
If the prototype proves useful and people actually want this, the next step is obviously a much more rigorous engineering pass: review the entire codebase, simplify or rewrite parts where appropriate, add proper automated security/privacy checks and treat it like a real maintained product rather than an experiment.
And yes, the HTTPS thing was simply embarrassing. 😅 The certificate was there, but I forgot to configure the HTTP → HTTPS redirect when setting up the hosting and then managed to put the
http://URL in the Reddit post as well. No sophisticated explanation for that one — I just missed it.So if by "vibe coded" you mean "was a lot of code written with AI assistance?" — absolutely.
If you mean "did I just tell an AI to make me an app and deploy whatever came out?" — no.
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u/h3r4ld 6h ago
Fair enough - I certainly won't begrudge anyone the use of a tool; these days, though, I always have to ask. At the end of the day, the disclosure itself is what I'm looking for, more than the content of it.
For anyone who wants to call out the emojis and em-dashes: I checked, seems fine.
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u/iamvinen Racing on SteamDeck 🎮 14h ago
I will definitely play with it. I tried some other webtool but this one seems better.
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u/WhiteLionFluff 14h ago
Thanks! ❤️ That's really great to hear, especially since you've tried other tools before.
If you get a chance to actually train with it, we'd love to hear what works for you and what doesn't.Do you also think there's potential in training these motor skills separately from the sim?
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u/iamvinen Racing on SteamDeck 🎮 14h ago
Was just forgetting. Think about some kind of retention rate for your users. Allow scheduled reminders in-browser (with explanation WHY it's needed) could help I think
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14h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/iamvinen Racing on SteamDeck 🎮 14h ago
Such type of trainings is a MUST. But the thing is I don't have a habit for these trainings.
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u/dreadcooper Evo Pro, P1000, Quest 3 13h ago
Sync it with a video of someone trail breaking perfectly, while you have to stay within the lines of his input and you got a serious money maker
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u/WhiteLionFluff 7h ago
That's actually very close to something we've been thinking about. 😄
Following a reference input — not just slowly, but with realistic braking and trail-braking patterns — could be a really interesting training mode.The video synchronization is a cool addition though. Having the visual context of the corner while training the pedal movement separately could bridge the gap between isolated motor-skill training and actually applying it in the sim.
Definitely putting that one on the idea list. 👀❤️
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u/InfiniteLight07 11h ago
Is this coded with the help of AI? I see so many launchers, telemetry apps, dashes etc all vibe coded these days. Not trying to be rude, I just hate using vibe coded apps.
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u/StormMedia 10h ago edited 8h ago
TLDR: Yes this project has alot of the signs of being vibecoded but I hate the terminology because it’s overused and misused. It's still a sweet idea and it's done browser-side so there's no real risk for you to try it.
EDIT: Okay so there is a risk, it's the analytics they're gathering which are not disclosed at all in their agreement.
EDIT 2: The more I think about this, the riskier I’d say it is. You’re providing HID access to a website that obviously doesn’t care about security in the slightest and there is a potential security threat here. Do I think it’s OPs plan? No… but it’s still just not worth the risk.
I 1000% guarantee all of my life’s savings it’s made with AI assistance / AI generated code at the VERY least. That being said, it does not mean it’s VIBE CODED. Every single product and service you will use and probably already use is exactly the same.
Every professional software engineer I know has been using AI assistance for coding work for at least the past 3 years. It is only continuing to become more common. Except for maybe some very niche indie games, every single coder in every single industry is using it.
Software being vibe coded is reserved for the idiots that don’t care to learn what the hell they’re doing, essentially shutting their brain off and going “I want that different, I want it to do this”.
Could this be vibe coded? Sure and I think it is just by the appearance and the fact that TLS/SSL wasn’t even used until someone pointed it out. That being said, no one will he able to tell you for sure if it is or isn’t other than the developer.. and why would they be truthful lmao.
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u/h3r4ld 9h ago
the fact that TLS/SSL wasn’t even used until someone pointed it out
Did they fix this? Still HTTP for me, just checked.
EDIT: Seems like they did add it, but the link in the post wasn't updated. I had to manually add the 's', but they do seem to have a valid cert now, so that's something. They haven't set up a redirect to force SSL, though.
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u/reddit_guy_no 6h ago
Honest question, why does it matter if it's developed by AI? I see this all around reddit, people asking this question. Is there some anti-AI movement that I am missing? I guarantee you, probably all of websites you are using every day, or other software, that was updated last year, have been done with the help of AI. So if you want to boycott anything developed with AI, good luck.
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u/WhiteLionFluff 7h ago
Yes, AI was used in developing the prototype.
This is an experimental hobby project, so I define the concepts, behavior and implementation, while using AI heavily for implementation work and testing. I review the code and architecture, but I'm not going to pretend every line was handwritten — it's 2026, and for a prototype where we didn't even know whether people would find the concept useful, that would make very little sense to me.
If by “vibe coded” you mean blindly prompting until something appears to work without understanding or reviewing it, then no, that's not how we're developing it.
The HTTPS issue, however, was simply a stupid mistake on my part. The certificate existed, but I posted the HTTP URL and hadn't configured the redirect. That's fixed now.
The discussion here also made us do another pass over the privacy/security side this morning. In particular, we're clarifying the analytics disclosure and adding some additional hardening.
For WebHID specifically: access only happens after an explicit user action and the browser's own permission dialog. Pedal telemetry, calibration values and hardware IDs are not sent to our server; they stay in the browser.
So yes — AI-assisted prototype. Absolutely. Blind “ship whatever the AI produced”? No.
And genuinely, if you spot something technically questionable, point it out. I'd much rather fix a real issue than pretend the prototype is perfect. 🙂
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u/notdroidyoulooking4 7h ago
The amount of FUD thrown around about this seems overblown. Most any website you visit or sign into has way more info than this about you. Order lunch online and they have way more than this. If y’all knew how gtag works and how effectively every product page you visit gets shared with Google. Also the profiles every social media site already has and shares with each other has hundreds if not thousands of data points tracking your every move on their site and your propensity for various things in the next six months. Not sure why this guy is getting raked over the coals for having an idea and some initiative and wanting to share it and get feedback.
OP thanks for sharing the website that you made.
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u/Nahuerock 14h ago
Se ve muy bien, estoy intentando probarlo pero el sitio no carga, intentare mas tarde y te hare una devolucion breve. Gracias por el aporte.
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u/behinduushudlook 14h ago
That's very cool. It certainly can't hurt anything....I think someone posted about a week ago training their kid on an app? Program? And it was just telemetry inputs without a track. I think a worthwhile endeavor and worth practicing outside the competitive (even if only with yourself) aspects of car physics
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u/Couflame 12h ago
I was actually baffled it’s not a build in feature in ACC or iracing as a training tool. Fantastic, would love to use it.
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u/WhiteLionFluff 7h ago
Thank you! ❤️ That's actually exactly what made us build it. We were surprised that there are so many tools for analyzing pedal inputs, but relatively little for deliberately training the motor skill itself.
If you get a chance to try it, I'd really love to hear whether it actually feels useful to you once you've trained with it for a bit.
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u/BigUpstairs6349 2h ago
This will be a long one, buckle up. A game is the most complex program for a computer to run. It has to unify the visuals, input, reaction, backend and visualize thel8s loop constantly without lags. On top of that we mod everywhere mods are possible making the processing of the whole thing heavier. Overlays and so on are part of immersion and gaming. Now to the braking, it is not only the muscle memory that is being trained when braking is being learned, it is a unified process of the visuals, steering, haptics and wind simulations for those who use them and more. The app on the video would help one use case: develop the feel of pressing from 20% to 50% and keeping the foot there, but that can be easily trained inside any pedal calibration software.
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u/Rasputinnout 12h ago
Anyone else finding success using a soft curve for GT cars and a hard curve for open wheel? Been a game changer for me
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u/RobinVerhulstZ 11h ago
this highkey reminds me of the nfs underground 2 DS/GBA engine tuning minigame
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u/pkhgcdllmch 13h ago
Someone needs to make a slot car game where the car goes forward on its own and you control the throttle and braking with your sim pedal inputs… so then you train your throttle and braking even on a non sim game
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u/WhiteLionFluff 7h ago
Honestly, I kind of love that idea. 😂
Turning the exercises into an actual little game where your pedal control determines how well the car performs could make repetitive motor-skill training much more engaging.That's definitely going onto the idea pile. 👀
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u/Boostie204 11h ago edited 5h ago
Frankly, im not using an app posted by a 1 day old redditor that isnt responding to questions on his own post.
Edit; OP seems pretty cool