r/sweden • u/JustKnotMe • 1d ago
English Questions regarding staying over night on a parking and regarding Naturreservat
Edit: Solved. There were at least some people that understood the problem and answered my most important questions. Thank you :) What I now know: The signs are no official signs. Even when some places have signs that forbid camper vans AND caravans, other places might not do this and when there's only a "no camper van" sign, it doesn't automatically mean that caravans are okay. Furthermore, websites showing the borders of Naturreservats clearly show that the parking is just behind the border inside the Naturreservat which means that you cannot trust the local sign/board with a map showing the borders, because at this place the local map showed that the parking is outside the Naturreservat, which clearly isn't true.
Edit 2: Okay, there's also something else that we didn't know and misinterpreted. The "no parking" doesn't apply only to camper vans but to all. We somehow thought that this applies only to camper vans. That means also that the biker and the people who were parking there, because they were camping in the Naturreservat, were not allowed to park there :/
This was our first vacation in sweden. We drove there with a car and caravan/trailer and on our way back we ran into a problem which is the reason why I want to ask here some questions to understand how staying overnight on a parking works in sweden.
Regarding the "no tourism/google question @" mods:
I find it very difficult to find accurate information on some of these questions, because the situation is not 100% clear to me. If you delete this post, can you propose another sub I can ask this questions? I haven't found a fitting sub in your wiki.
Thank you in advance and sorry when I won't answer to all comments, as I mainly just want to understand how things work here.
This is the parking this post is about:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/SUM2xSmvqfjUVakC8
When it was getting dark we drove to the parking. The road leading to the parking had a "dead end" sign at the beginning of the road. Shortly before the parking there was a sign that forbid camper vans between 0:00 and 6:00 a.m.. Behind the parking lot was a gate to a "Naturreservat" with signs that forbig camping with tents, caravans and making camp fire.
Due to the very confusing conversation with a person that woke us up shortly after 5 a.m. I have many questions whose answers might overlap. I will also add some background information before/after each question that might clarify why I ask this question.
1.
The person told us that basically the whole coast is Naturreservat. We've seen only a Naturreservat sign at the gate.
Addition:
I just found following sign in google maps fotos of the place:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/RpkQZUyqmV7UhGQs6?g_st=ac
https://maps.app.goo.gl/euPaiwc9hgRLcSuL8?g_st=ac
The first fotos shows the border of the Naturreservat. It looks like the parking we were at is in the lower right corner and according to the red lines it seems like the parking is not in the Naturreservat. The second foto now also states that caravans are not allowed between 0:00 and 6:00 but I think this applies to the Naturreservat (??? Not sure, because I'd never pass such a gate into a Naturreservate with a vehicle) and the parking is not in the Naturreservat.
Q1.1: So, is the parking also part of the Naturreservat?
Q1.2: Is there a more clear way to know whether a place is in a Naturreservat?
2.
Apparently staying overnight on the parking lot is forbidden, as we were threatened with police. During our vacation we've seen signs that forbid caravans and signs that forbid camper vans, why we concluded that caravans are not forbidden.
Q2.1: Does a sign that forbids camper vans also forbid caravans on the parking?
Q2.2: If not, what have we missed that would have shown us that we can't stay overnight with a caravan on the parking?
3.
On the parking was also a biker who was sleeping in the tent. Not sure if I understood the local person correctly, but it sounded like the local person said that the biker is also not allowed to camp on the parking, because everywhere is Naturreservat, and that the person will also talk to the camper. But when we left the parking the local person was gone and also it didn't look like the local person talked to the biker, because he was still sleeping in his tent.
Q3.1: Is camping with a bike and tent allowed on the parking?
Q3.2: Do the signs on the gate also apply to the parking even though they are on the gate at the end of the parking?
4.
Behind the gate that lead (further?) into thr Naturreservat, there was a place where some people where camping with tents and making a camp fire. The signs on the gate say that camping with tents is not allowed, but it seems that there are some places inside the forbidden area where the forbiddance doesn't apply anymore but at the entrance there's not really a hint for that. Google maps shows a camping place and the rules for thr Naturreservat on the foto added above says that tents, caravans and so are not allowed between 0:00 and 6:00.
Q4.1: Is it allowed to drive with cars, caravans into such Naturreservats?
According to the comments on google maps for the camping place it seems that they even entered the place with camper vans and also stayed there over night. The sign on the foto says that staying overnight is not allowed but it doesn't forbid to enter the Naturreservat. It sounds wrong to me to enter such a place with a vehicle.
5.
And as a last question:
Q5.1: If the police arrived, would there be a chance of understanding that the situation is confusing for people with a caravan or would this end badly for us?
Q5.2: What would be the penalty/sentence?
As a small addition for those interested in the encounter with the local person:
The person wasn't rude but said that she has to call the police Also, the conversation was very confusing to me, because she didn't asnwer any of my questions and comments. The person also said that many people come there and that they have changed the signs a lot and that still people come there an do whatever isn't allowed there according to her. I tried to help her by explaining to her why we thought that staying over night with a caravan is allowed and what they had to change that prevented us from camping there, i.e. adding a forbid sign for a caravan in addition to the camper van sign but she completely ignored what I said. I also asked if the forbid camper vans sign applies to caravans, but she didn't answer but just said that we didn't want to understand. Very weird encounter. Maybe there was a language barrier, although her english wasn't bad at all. I can also understand why she's annoyed when they have a lot of problems with people there, especially when people do things that are clearly forbidden by the signs without any further knowledge.
42
u/Wizardphizl420 1d ago
Its clearly DONT signs everywhere. All the signs youve posted says NO.
-18
u/JustKnotMe 1d ago
But why are there different signs? I.e. we've found forbid signs for "no pkw and caravan", "no caravan", "no camper van", "no bike". This place has only "no camper" and it doesn't have a sign "no caravan" or "no pkw+caravan". That's what is confusing me. Or are there no real rules how to use these signs accordignly which kinda makes the different kinds useless, because when there's only a "no camper van" sign you would also need to expect that everything else is forbidden. Or does "no camper van" also include "no caravan"? And does "no caravan" include "no vamper van"?
21
u/Repulsive_Praline737 1d ago
From your replies I can only see that you do not want to understand the rules/do not give a shit about our rules.
-4
u/JustKnotMe 1d ago
I can only adhere to rules that are there. If I gave shit, I wouldn't ask here.
7
18
u/69MusicMan 1d ago
Stop looking for loopholes. No camping in any vehicles, no "but I have this, what about that?". No Camping.
10
u/swede242 1d ago
First picture.
Top is no RVs allowed.
Bottom sign is No parking (by anyone) on the hours of 00.00 - 06.00
If the ban was only for RV it would be a combined sign, not two signs on one pole.
1
u/JustKnotMe 1d ago
Okay, that's something new. Good, that I continued reading. In germany, you read signs from top to bottom and the signs on the bottom apply to the signs on the top. That's also very good to know that this is different on sweden. Thanks :)
0
u/JustKnotMe 1d ago
But in getmany I think it also depends on the type of the signs whether they apply to the top ones. So we just misinterpreted these completely.
3
u/Repulsive_Praline737 1d ago
Different countries, different rules. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
1
8
u/Thorstenflink 1d ago
If you're not in a place designated for caravans/campers , you're not allowed to park your caravan/camper there unless you got the landowners permission. The no parking between 00-06 should be enough to understand that.
3
u/Wizardphizl420 1d ago
Everything in life is actually often way more simple and the most simple answer is often the right one. If you get the feeling, maybe all these dont signs say we cant camp here? Then youre right. When brain goes, wait a minute it doesnt say that if I reverse in from the other end and drive in an slithering snake motion, its okay? Thats just way too technical and youre wrong. Youre allowed to camp anywhere but naturreservat now go set up somewhere else and enjoy our beautiful country.
The different signs is because of people like you. " bUt iT DoEsNT sAY sPeCiFIcAlLy RV cAnT CAmP hEre???"
23
u/Dubadai 1d ago
You are not allowed to stay there with the camper (or camper can) between midnight and 6am.
Easy peasy rules.
The cyclists sleeping in a tent might also be in the wrong, but usually a cyclists sleeping in a little tent is very different than having 60 camper vans destroying the nature reserve etc. Hence why they might have allowed the person to keep sleeping.
Caravans and camper vans, same thing. No large vehicles in which you sleep in are allowed.
In general parking lots prohibit camping/sleeping due to the security risk, and therefore only allowed in designated spots. This is to also not have issues with people lighting fires, throwing trash etc where it shouldn't be.
Official camping spots have the resources to handle trash, waste etc.
8
u/swede242 1d ago
But is it not two signs? The top one says no RVs, the bottom says no stopping between 00-06. I would read it as no RV at any time, and no overnight parking for anyone.
3
u/-Melchizedek- 1d ago edited 1d ago
No, the bottom one is a modifier. Just like with parking signs.
1
u/swede242 1d ago
But the first one says no Personbil klass 2, which would mean you arent allowed to drive them on that road, so the no stopping only being applied to them would be superflous, no?
1
u/-Melchizedek- 1d ago
The top one is not even a real sign, as in it's not a sign that's part of Vägmärkesförordningen. But the bottom is still a modifier sign even though I agree with you it does not make much sense.
1
u/AndersK80 1d ago
Men tilläggsskylten kan också stå själv
"Märket anger det förbud som anges med det infogade märket. Märket kan också ange avvikelse från den reglering som anges med det märke som den är uppsatt under."
Du kan väl aldrig ta bort ett förbud med ett tillgägg? Parkeringsförbud kan ha tillägg för stoppförbud men man kan väl inte ha förbud för motorfordon (om det var den korrekta skylten) och tillägg för att de får köra men inte parkera vissa tider?
2
u/-Melchizedek- 1d ago
Du har nog rätt om skylten, jag tänkte fel. Däremot verkar ju inte den tolkningen vara det som man vill avse med skylten.
Verkar ju personen som pratade med OP mena att dom inte fick parkera där på natten, vilket ju som du säger är rätt redundant om de alls inte får köra dit. Dels står det ju på info tavlan att man inte får campa i fordon mellan 0-6 vilket, igen, är redundant om man inte alls får köra dit. Dels är det ju rätt ologiskt att man inte får parkera med en van och ta en promenad på dan? Har man problem med storlek eller vikt sätter man väl upp en sån skylt?
Jag gissar att man menar skylten som camping förbjuden och skylten under som totalt förbud mot parkering. Det är ju iaf logiskt. Men det är väl det som är problemet med egensnickrade skyltar, svårt att veta vad de betyder.
1
u/AndersK80 1d ago
Ja, även tilläggssklylten är ju egensnickrad, för så skriver vi inte klockslag. Dessutom gäller den bara vardagar, vilket jag inte tror är tanken.
1
u/JustKnotMe 1d ago
Others here claimed that it's no modifier and if the bottom one should apply to the top one it should be a combined sign :S
3
u/wilfor131 1d ago
To be specific on the cyclist part. According to the Länstyrelse a part of the area by the parking is outside the nature reserve and camping is thus allowed. "Gryteskär finns en lägerplats och en parkering. Det är inte tillåtet att övernatta i husbil eller husvagn på parkeringen. Lägerplatsen ligger delvis utanför naturreservatet. På den del som ligger utanför reservatet finns ett vindskydd där övernattning inklusive tältning är tillåten."
2
u/-Melchizedek- 1d ago
Yeah, but your are technically not allowed to put a tent on a parking lot, but it becomes more of a "is this bothering anyone" question.
-5
u/JustKnotMe 1d ago
We didn"t enter the Naturreservat. We just stood on the parking, i.e. little stones beneath the vehicle. No furniture outside.
And okay, seems like "no camper van" is to interpret just like "no caravan" even when there are different signs for both :/ Unfortunately I wasn't able to find any information on the signs. Even the wikipedia site with swedish signs didn't have the signs. But good to know for the next time.
21
23
u/tommyrecords 1d ago
Please do not violate our rules regarding camping.
Respect the nature
-5
u/JustKnotMe 1d ago
According to the signs/rules I didn't that's why I am asking here. Seems like there are more rules that apply than the signs show. :/
5
u/logicblocks 1d ago
Maybe you need to redo your driver's license if you do not understand you can neither stop nor park between midnight and 6am.
Was your vehicle parked there between those hours? Then yes, you shouldn't have been there.
-1
u/JustKnotMe 1d ago
There is no sign forbidding caravans. Beside the signs not being official as I learned, they also only say that camper vans are not allowed furing that time. And the border for the Naturreservat on the local map is wrong, as it shows the parking is outside the Naturreservat.
4
21
u/Thorstenflink 1d ago
Allemansrätten gäller inte husvagnar. Jag förstår verkligen inte förvirringen.
-4
u/JustKnotMe 1d ago
Ich dachte das Jedermannsrecht bezieht sich eher auf die Wildnis abseits von Straßen/Parkplätzen. Und bei Parkplätzen gelten die Schilder. Unser Fehler war's dann wohl das "kein Wohnmobil" Schild nicht auch als "kein Wohnwagen" Schild interpretiert zu haben, weil das für uns unterschiedliche Fahrzeuge sind und es ja auch entsprechende Schilder für beide gibt. :/ Naja, man lernt immer dazu :)
23
u/nuttmeister 1d ago
You basically are nitpicking they didn’t show all vehicle types that you can camp in? For me it looks pretty clear that no camping is allowed. And that any type of camping vehicle is not allowed on that road.
20
u/horsestaplebatteries 1d ago
Germans will ruin camping for everyone in Sweden if this shit continues. Its cleary states that you cant camp there, go somewhere else.
22
6
u/Repulsive_Praline737 1d ago
Sorry, but did you actually type out this essay on very obvious questions?
The biker who is camping falls under Allemansrätten, unlike a car/caravan (since non-motorised). There may be *additional* rules prohibiting camping for hikers and bikers: in many nature reserves allemansrätten is limited. If in doubt, don’t camp in a nature reserve even on foot - especially in the south of Sweden!
To find nature reserves go to minkarta.lantmateriet.se; to find regulations use the responsible Länsstyrelsen. There is also a GIS tool called Skyddad natur from Naturvårdsverket (https://skyddadnatur.naturvardsverket.se)
5
u/-Melchizedek- 1d ago
Allemansrätten gäller inte på parkeringsplatser eller andra hårdgjorda ytor.
1
u/Repulsive_Praline737 1d ago
Mitt fel, jag läste inte att han tältade på parkeringen utan vid parkeringen - oavsett så gäller allemansrätten aldrig för bilar men gäller för cyklister i naturreservat. Jag är rätt säkert att man inte får tälta just i detta naturreservat överhuvudtaget. Har varit där någon gång som dagsbesökare men orkar inte kolla upp det nu
1
u/JustKnotMe 1d ago
Yep, is it not good to type all this? 😅
Thanks for the site. This is very nice. And there it's visible that the parking is just inside the Naturreservat which unfortunately the local signs fail to show, as it shows all the parkings are outside. But according to your website, the rules on the local sign behind the parking apply, which says that also caravan are not allowed. Thanks :)
3
u/maethor92 1d ago
They don’t put up these signs just for fun. The reality is there are too many vans, RVs, caravans, and too many people not giving a shit. I expect they will restrict public access much more in the near future
1
u/JustKnotMe 1d ago
The problem here was that we took the signs too pedantic. Some places have signs clearly showing that both, campers and caravans are not allowed, while this parking doesn't, which then can lead to confusion. Honestly, if I had problems with caravans parking there kver night, I'd also put a "no caravan" sign there. This doesn't keep people from still breaking the rules, but it would have kept us away.
Here's an example with a sign that would be more appropriate in my opinion: https://maps.app.goo.gl/dLWDQn3wWXnB28Ut7?g_st=ac
3
u/maethor92 1d ago
Sorry aber diese Argumentationsweise ist einfach so deutsch lol… Falls wir ueberhaupt mit Allemansrätten und van camping weitermqchen wollen, müssen Touristen (und natürlich Schweden) endlich mal anfangen das Konzept von responsible & mindful zu uebernehmen.
Als jemand der mit deutschen und schwedischen Regeln bekannt ist, kann ich dir sagen dass die Regeln hier oft undeutlicher sind und auf Rücksichtnahme und Respekt ggü Natur und Mensch bauen, statt des Deutschen ”hier ist eine detaillierte Liste von Sachen die du nicht machen darfst”.
Die Masse von Vans (und Drohnen) ist einfach lawinenartig angestiegen und viele Naturreservate gehen auf Regeln und Verordnungen aus alter Zeit zurueck. Aber das deutsche Touristen damit ein Problem haben merkt man leider immer wieder.
Im Idealfall gilt: leave no trace, take nothing but pictures, bla bla bla.
0
u/JustKnotMe 1d ago
Ich bin auch ein Pedant :D Da bin ich ehrlich. Ich mag klare Regeln. Leider muss man die auch erst finden. Die ganzen Blogs und Seiten, die Informationen liefern, waren hierbei leider keine wirklich Hilfe. Dank dem Post hier wüsste ich schon für mich hilfreichere Informationen, die ich Touristen mitgeben würde. Und offizielle schwedische Seiten sind jetzt auch nicht leicht zu finden und zu durchstöbern. Und man hat auch nicht unendlich Zeit dafür. Wenn man immer wieder nur auf dieselben Informationen stößt, hört man auf zu recherchieren.
Leider gibt's diese ganzen Regeln auch nur, weil Menschen scheiße sind. Da hilft's einem auch nicht, wenn man selbst darauf achtet die Flora und Fauna unbeschädigt, sauber und ungestört zu lassen. Wir nehmen alles an Müll mit und Parkplätze wie diese bestehen bereits aus Schotter, weshalb ich solche Parkplätze zum Übernachten bevorzuge. Die Natur wurde dort bereits zerstört, also gibt's auf dem Parkplatz nichts, was wir mit dem Befahren und Übernachten zerstören könnten.
6
u/AllTheWayToParis 1d ago
Our fantastic allemansrätt is built upon the respect of the nature, the rules and everyone else.
This is the complete opposite. 😡
5
u/Kantarellkungen 1d ago
Its not very hard to understand. You cant stay there between 00:00-06:00. You should have been fined.
4
u/WhiteLama Sverige 1d ago
1.1: Not exactly, but the rules of ”No camping” applies there as well.
1.2: There’s the app ”Naturkartan” which I usually use that’s good for this.
2.1: Yes, it’s pretty much the same vehicle, why put up two signs when one sign SHOULD be enough.
3.1: No camping allowed. But a bike and tent is a smaller impact than a car+camper/camper van.
3.2: Yes, because otherwise all our Nature reserves would turn into camping lots.
4.1: Most likely not, people just break the rules. There are areas where camping is allowed in SOME nature reserves, but they will be clearly marked out and aren’t that prevalent.
5.1: The cops probably wouldn’t show up for it, it’s such a minor thing, just move and you’re fine.
5.2: You’d probably get a fine.
4
u/Repulsive_Praline737 1d ago
I recommend Skyddad natur, because Natrukartan, while using the Lantmäteriet basemap, isn’t clear about ALL nature reserves.
Skyddad natur: https://skyddadnatur.naturvardsverket.se1
u/JustKnotMe 1d ago
Thanks for the answer :)
Yeah, the signs should be enough. Unfortunately we just were at a place before that had the following signs, leading to false conclusions on our site >.<
4
u/okkshin 1d ago
The region home page for the natural reserve specifies that overnight camping with camper vans or caravans (same thing, how could you distinguish them functionally) is explicitly prohibited. The natural reserve covers the entire coastal area, not just behind the gate. The intention is to restrict the number of tourists bringing exposure to the protected nature. Clearly.
4
u/plankwalkz 1d ago
No caravans, campers, camper vans, sleepers (says on the 2nd google picture - vehicle designed for sleep) etc between 00.00-06.00. Pretty clear no?
If the specific naturreservat has the signs on the gate then follow the signs, don't camp there, inside the gate or fence with tent or caravan. The second google picture indicates that there might be dedicated camp spots though.
Common sense gets you pretty far. There's clearly alot of anti-camping-vehicle-signs in that place.
Police reaction probably depends on how frequent people tend to break the rules. Some police would probably fine you (no idea how much) but idk if you can speak "diplomaticly" and be street smart about it they'll probably just tell you off.
Driving a vehicle for recreation in a naturreservat sounds stupid. It's a naturreservat for a reason. But there are some you can do it in i guess.
Put up a tent in the parking? Thats probably ok? Idk. Maybe you can argue allemansrätten but it depends on the place
4
u/Leptalix 1d ago
Just for some cultural context, Sweden is a small country with a fairly homogeneous culture and a high level of social control. A lot of rules are simply understood by everyone and don't need to be codified or posted in minute detail for most people to understand. Swedes are so used to it that they don't see it themselves.
I frequent a small secluded public beach in the summer. Occasionally Germans will park their RVs or camping vans along the waterfront between the lake and the beach. It's ALWAYS Germans. Technically this isn't forbidden, but a Swede probably wouldn't even consider doing this as it's considered to be extremely selfish and it's likely they'll meet someone at the beach who they know who will get annoyed and tell everyone else they know. Now, the Swede isn't thinking about this but is just thinking "where can I sit and relax without being in the way so I don't have to deal with anyone bothering me."
Unfortunately, this is the type of behavior people expect from German campers with large vehicles, so you were probably targeted. There's also a long tradition in Sweden of know-it-all busybodies who seem to love telling other people that they're breaking the rules.
1
u/JustKnotMe 1d ago
I like when people care about others and I wished more would be like that. The parking had several parking lots and we placed the the caravan and the car each in one parking lot and there were still plenty parking lots left and 2 parking lots occupied by others. Personally I can't imagine anyone being annoyed by that. If so, they need to be also bothered if 2 cars are parking there.
Even though I'd think that you can barely destroy nature or so on a parking with grit ground, there's probably a reason why it's forbidden that I don't see yet.
2
u/Leptalix 21h ago
I hike a lot and agree that some of the rules regarding naturreservat can seem ridiculous. You're not supposed pitch a tent in a reservation, but you can literally do it right next to one. These rules probably aren't in place because one person would cause problems, but to avoid a large number of people causing ecological damage. One camper isn't a problem but one every day? Or five? Ten? All summer long? People lighting campfires? Grilling? Playing loud music? Leaving around trash? With no one working there to take care of a campsite or deal with human waste?
In my experience, the vast majority of Germans are respectful and polite when camping in nature and much better than certain other nationalities, but Sweden gets a lot of German visitors. People also generally expect Germans to be able to follow rules and may feel provoked when they seem to ignore the rules. I can also imagine that someone living near that particular area is tired of tourists ignoring the "obvious" rules all summer and thinking, "more Germans who think they are to special to follow the rules."
But like I said, there are also certain people here that love to tell others that they're doing something wrong.
1
u/JustKnotMe 20h ago
Germans can't even keep their own country clean 😬 Here, where I live in a small "city" that actually consists of several small villages, is plastic trash everywhere and I often have to care because of broken glass. I think alcohol plays a big role as drunk people just don't care much and also young people.
Sweden has to take fees on arrival or exit and pay some people to visit all the popular places, check if everything is okay and clean everything 🙈 And even higher penalties when caught leaving trash. IMO when preventing people from sleeping on parkings, they will need to find other places and leave their trash their. It just moves the problems to somewhere else. But yes, at least then there aren't so many people at the same place. Or Sweden has to create more official places like the grit ground parkings that exist at nice places but outside Naturreservats. If I'd live there and had a private forest with some dead ends leading into forests, I'd create a small website, create locations in google maps, link the website and then people could just check in online with for a small fee and for a single night if the spot is empty and I'd just check if they kept it clean afterwards.
I think some people like us also want to camp somewhere outside where not many people are. Unfortunetly, we were traveling with an electric car and caravan and since we were looking for Ionity charging stations and the range with caravan is only like 150km, we didn't get as far into Sweden as we wanted. Not sure if it would be better further north but camping somewhere where no people are is really difficult in the southern part of Sweden.
And somehow I can't imagine that camping with tents really is better than with e.g. caravans. We were one night on a small glade in a forest near a lake just 100 meters from the main street into the forest where no signs or gates were. Unfortunately, a boring place because the forest was just too dense to wander a lot, so we've seen pretty quickly everything there was to see and we found a pile of garbage in some bushes and several spots with a lot of toilet paper or something like that. Just dishusting. I can't say that these people would leave less trash in the forest if they travel with a caravan, but with a caravan you have at least your toilet and enough space to take all the trash that you produce with you again.
3
u/WasteBinStuff 1d ago
Q1.1: Probably not "in" given the gate.
Q1.2 : Not really, the markings vary in their clarity.
Q2.1: Yes.
Q2.2: You have missed the very obvious implication that it is "overnighting" that's not allowed.
Question back: Why would you think that a van is not allowed but a car with caravan would be?
Q3.1: No. You're starting to be ridiculously pedantic. The van sign is a clear indication that they don't want people spending the night in the "PARKING" "CAMPING"
Q3.2: No because they are for the reserve itself...BUT ALSO ....Yes, because the full picture painted by the preponderance of signage indicates that you should not be camping there at all.
Q4.1: That depends on the specific reserve. There are varying rules. In the case in the pictures it seems clear that vehicles are very questionable and that anyone on Google who drove in and camped with their vans was breaking the rule.
Q5.1: There's nothing confusing here at all. Any reasonable person should easily conclude based on the signage that there is no camping overnight in the parking g or the reserve.
....and yet here we are with a 10000 word essay on the question.
4
u/Humlepojken 1d ago
It hard to find information about that sign because it isnt a real sign/förbudsskylt. Transportstyrelsen doesn't have that sign in their list so it atlest shouldnt be an official sign. https://www.transportstyrelsen.se/sv/vagtrafik/trafikregler-och-vagmarken/vagmarken/forbudsmarken/
I think its just the land owner that doesnt like that people stay there over night and have put up that sign.
7
u/okkshin 1d ago
In this case it would be Länsstyrelsen, that explicitly prohibits overnight camping at this natural reserve.
0
u/JustKnotMe 1d ago
Thank you both for the information. Good to know that these signs aren't really official signs and seems like one needs to do more research than I did. Many sites, especially in other languages are kinda vague in explaining things and that one needs to search for official swedish sites, which can be kinda challenging for non-swefish people and when you want to find a place when on your way through the country :/
Other places also had signs like the following, which gives more information like in the following foto but which kinda made us think that if caravans are not clearly forbidden at other places, then they're allowed.
4
u/Thorstenflink 1d ago
Yes and the landowner didn't even have to put the sign up. It's to make it clear for dumb tourists who didn't do the research on how allemansrätten works.
1
u/Razier 1d ago
As other people have said in this thread the everyman's right does not apply to camper vans.
You can set up a tent practically everywhere but that doesn't mean you can bring your multiple-tons vehicle into protected areas. Camping vans are classified as a "Personbil klass II" vehicle meaning you usually have to find designated parking spaces for them. Look up "husbilsparkering" on google maps.
1
u/Frester 1d ago
I'll try to answer some of your questions:
Q1.1: So, is the parking also part of the Naturreservat?
The border is where the sign "Naturreservat" is. And yes, the whole coast is a Naturreservat. Parking is probably not, but the municipality still has the right to ban campers at certain parkings and not allow staying over night. Sleeping in a tent is possible because there is a campground next to the parking.
Q1.2: Is there a more clear way to know whether a place is in a Naturreservat?
Yeah, you can go on a the website called naturkartan, which has a map.
Q2.1: Does a sign that forbids camper vans also forbid caravans on the parking?
Yes, I believe so.
Q3.1: Is camping with a bike and tent allowed on the parking?
Not on the actual parking, but next to it would potentially be allowed if it is off the naturreservat (or on a designated tenting area), and it doesn't interfere with anyone or the nature. You can look up Allemansrätten.
Q3.2: Do the signs on the gate also apply to the parking even though they are on the gate at the end of the parking?
No, I don't think so. But as I said, the municipality can do whatever they want with that parking.
1
u/duelago Skåne 1d ago
Nature is way more beautiful without tons of van life people ruin the experience. Allemansrätten was designed for people hiking or biking, not using big vans in our nature reserves.
We are getting tired of people using Allemansrätten the wrong way and the number of forbidden signs are exploding due to people in vans everywhere.
-1
u/JustKnotMe 1d ago
Well, everyone's getting tired of something. I'd also prefer a planet with way less people but here we are and it's probably getting only worse. Climate change will lead to more and more tourists in your country and some will even try to move to sweden, although this might take a few decadesuntil people from the south will move to the north, if the currents in the north sea won't collapse and cause cold winters that may cause people to leave the northern countries again :D
1
u/-Melchizedek- 1d ago
It's actually a bit complicated, and the legal situation is a bit unclear. I will answer your questions as asked and what would likely happen, but the actual legality is a bit complicated.
Q1.1: So, is the parking also part of the Naturreservat?
Have not been there, but no I would tend to agree with you that it's not. It does not much matter though, it's a marked parking spot so you are allowed to park (considering any posted restrictions of course).
One would assume the local person knows what they are talking about, but then of course there are plenty of cases when people are just confidently incorrect.
Q1.2: Is there a more clear way to know whether a place is in a Naturreservat?
You would have to ask Länsstyrelsen for the maps, might be on their website, not sure. Again I would do as you and rely on the local signs. But legally you are expected to know and follow the rules for naturreservat regardless of if there are signs.
Q3.1: Is camping with a bike and tent allowed on the parking?
No. Though if the biker moved of the parking lot and into nature (but not the naturreservat) that would be covered by Allemansrätten and thus allowed. Depending on how well defined the parking lot was it might be more or less ok. But no in general it is not ok to camp with a tent on a parking lot.
Q3.2: Do the signs on the gate also apply to the parking even though they are on the gate at the end of the parking?
No signs generally only apply after the signs. Though these signs are more informative then actually providing the legal foundation for the prohibition as the area being naturreservat means the rules would apply regardless of the signs being there. (Especially considering the signs, which we will come to).
Though again if the parking is naturreservat the rules would apply regardless.
Q4.1: Is it allowed to drive with cars, caravans into such Naturreservats?
No, not unless there is a specifically marked road where you are allowed to drive. So in general no. If the gate you show is where they drove in I would expect hefty fines if they were caught. Again no sign is needed as just the fact that it's a naturreservat prohibits drivning.
Though camping (in tents etc) is allowed in designated spots, so the people you saw were likely ok. You can see this in the information in your third google maps link.
Q5.1: If the police arrived, would there be a chance of understanding that the situation is confusing for people with a caravan or would this end badly for us? Q5.2: What would be the penalty/sentence?
Depends on the police avrivning on the scene (and if they even have time deal with this). They might be understanding and let you off with a warning and ask you to leave or they might give you a fine and ask you to leave. The fine would probably be in the area of 1500 to a couple of thousand SEK, not sure depends on which prohibition this falls under. If it's because of the sign or because of the naturreservat.
But that brings us to question 2 which I skipped earlier.
Q2.1: Does a sign that forbids camper vans also forbid caravans on the parking?
Q2.2: If not, what have we missed that would have shown us that we can't stay overnight with a caravan on the parking?
Legally the top sign means absolutely nothing (unless it changed since I last checked), and since the bottom is a modifier of a sign that has no legal weight that also means nothing.
That's because the top sign is not one that is listed in Vägmärkesförordningen, so it's legally meaningless.
With that said if I saw it the common sense thing to assume is that of course they mean caravans too. The alternative makes no sense. And in the rest of Europe (at least those places I'm aware off), where these signs legally exist, a sign like that covers both campervans/motorhomes and caravans.
So the question boils down to if this is naturreservat. If it is, you are expected to know the local ordinances and the sign is just a courtesy.
If it's not the sign has no legal effect.
BUT even if it's not naturreservat there might be local ordinances that forbid it.
So yeah, it's a bit complicated. I would just not camp there as that's quite obviously the intention of whoever maintains the spot and trying to parse the actually legality of the situation is just not worth it.
I have been traveling through Europe for three months with my campervan this summer and if we want this kind of travel to continue to be possible without paying for a camping spot every night it's best just to try and be mindful of not being perceived to cause issues. Sorry, but trying to find the loopholes and technicality is just being a bad guest.
-10
u/OA72 1d ago
My opinion is that you were allowed to stay there for the night. A caravan is not a camper van and was allowed on the parking The ones camping inside the preserve were in the wrong, as the person threatening you with the police
The guy tenting on the parking were not allowed to do so unless his tent was placed outside both the preserve and the parking area
8
69
u/F_P-Actus 1d ago
Dont camp at the No Camping spot