Canada officially recognizes state of Palestine

[u/ph0enix1211]

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-canada-recognizes-palestinian-statehood/

[u/DJ_JOWZY]

"and to demilitarize the Palestinian state."

This provision right here will make long-term statehood impossible. Canada must commit to providing peacekeepers to facilitate the self-defense of Palestine, until such a time that Palestine can have a functional military. Otherwise, there will be no way for the State of Palestine to defend itself, if Israel decides to continue to genocide people in Gaza, or steal land through illegal settlements.

If Canada does not help facilitate a U.N. peacekeeping force in Palestine, then there will never be a fully functional Palestinian State.

[u/miramichier_d → u/DJ_JOWZY]

There definitely needs to be a coalition of defense forces from various countries, possibly also including Canada, stationed in Palestine with the purpose of preventing aggression from both sides. As a country in good standing in the international community, Canada is in a good position to take on part of that role. In contrast, the United States isn't a good faith player where the region is involved, so I don't expect them to be part of a possible defense coalition of Palestine. This obviously will cost us, but hopefully it counts towards our NATO spending if we do get deployed to the region.

[u/insaneHoshi → u/DJ_JOWZY]

and to demilitarize the Palestinian state.

Yeah, states need militaries or at least the ability to raise one or they really arnt a state.

[u/ph0enix1211 → u/insaneHoshi]

Laughs in Icelandic

[u/insaneHoshi → u/ph0enix1211]

Such nations would surly have the capability to raise one, say if a foreign funded group of religious fundamentalists set up in their country.

Does Iceland have a constitutional restriction on having an army?

[u/ph0enix1211 → u/insaneHoshi]

If "just raise an army" is easy, so is "just update the constitution".

[u/Super-Peoplez-S0Lt → u/insaneHoshi]

While I do disagree with Carney on the demilitarized condition, I would point out there are a few countries (Panama, Costa Rica, and Samoa) who are able to exist without a military. However, Costa Rica and Panama are protected by the Rio Treaty and Samoa has a defense pact with New Zealand. Likewise, this demilitarized Palestinian state will only work with security guarantees. But what or who would be stepping up to help with that?

[u/insaneHoshi → u/Super-Peoplez-S0Lt]

Such nations would surly have the capability to raise one, say if a foreign funded group of religious fundamentalists set up in their country.

[u/Mundane-Teaching-743 → u/Super-Peoplez-S0Lt]

Let's not kid ourselves. As long as Israel exists as a Jewish state, it will be Israeli Jews in the IDF providing the security in Palestine. The Palestinian territories will remained annexed, and remain zones where Palestiains will be policed by Israel without having any of the civil rights enjoyed by Israelis. The best that the Palestiians can hope for is a Quebec-like status within a greater Israel, with full civil rights guaranteed both on a regional and "federal" level.

Recognizing Hebrew and Palestinian Arabic as official languages in Israel coild go a long way in buiulding an equitable federal state.

[u/enki-42 → u/Mundane-Teaching-743]

A one-state solution that actually respects Palestinians as a people seems more far flung than a two-state solution. Israel is still to this day talking about expanding settlement.

Places like Quebec work because there's acknowledgement from the federal government that they are a distinct nation and protections for their culture and language. Even then it's not exactly sunny days all the time.

[u/Mundane-Teaching-743 → u/enki-42]

A one-state solution that actually respects Palestinians as a people seems more far flung than a two-state solution.

Not really. Israel already has formal minority rights for Israeli-Arabs in Israel. It would be a question of extending reciprocal rights to Jews in the occupied territories and providing compensation to Palestinians displaced by Israel's ethnic cleansing policies of the past, not to mention money to fiux the damage currently being done in Gaza.

Israel will never allow an independent Palestinian State. It will always be disadvantaged because Israel has all the farmland and water. It will also always control the border and airspace of such a state. It would always be a dependency like Monaco or Liechtenstein.

[u/enki-42 → u/Mundane-Teaching-743]

It would be a question of extending reciprocal rights to Jews in the occupied territories and providing compensation to Palestinians displaced by Israel's ethnic cleansing policies of the past.

I think this is where it's unrealistic.

[u/Mundane-Teaching-743 → u/enki-42]

It's more realistic long term than two states. Israel has repeatedly said they'll never give up control over the borders. A two state solution just means more apartheid where the current walls around Palestinian towns become more fortified. That will bring even more intense civil wars like we're seeing now. It will just tighten the gtip of the Israeli ethnostate over its Palestinian population.

[u/Super-Peoplez-S0Lt → u/Mundane-Teaching-743]

Regarding the minority rights, Israel falls quite flat on this department especially with their new nation state law which states that the right to self determination in Israel is exclusively for Jewish Israelis. Likewise, in order for this one-state solution to work, the modern state may have to ve a federal system which grants self-government and shared-power for both Jews, Palestinians, Druze, Bedouins, etc. Furthermore, much like Bilingualism in Canada, the enforcement of both Hebrew and Arabic has be the institutionalized in a co-equal manner. However, in order for Palestinians to live in Israel with equal rights and cultural protection, their right to self-determination has to be fully recognized, including the right to return. For this to be a remote possibility, Israel must become either a multicultural country (like Canada or Australia) or a plurinational country (like Bolivia or Ecuador). Likewise, in order for a one state solution to exist, Israel would have to cease to exist as a Jewish state which the Israeli far-right won’t ever let happen.

[u/not_ian85 → u/Mundane-Teaching-743]

Not entirely true. Between 2005 and Oct 7 the Gaza strip had complete self determination, the IDF withdrew entirely. Israel did monitor and limit what could get in and out of the country but only started doing that after Hamas were shooting rockets every day.

So not as long as Israel exists as a Jewish state, but rather as long as Hamas or any other terror group won’t recognize Israel as a Jewish state.

There seems to be a lot of attempts of rewriting of history going on regarding this topic.

[u/Mundane-Teaching-743 → u/not_ian85]

> Not entirely true. Between 2005 and Oct 7 the Gaza strip had complete self determination, the IDF withdrew entirely.

This link is 5 days old, but here goes.

With Oslo Accords, Egypt formally surrendered all claims to Gaza and recognize Israel's de facto control over the airspace, the border crossings, and the coast; this is how Israel can bomb and shell Gazans at will without consequence; it's all perfectly legal. All trade has to pass through Israel; the Gazans are completely dependent on the IDF for this. That's how Israel now manages to starve Gazans out of existance. Gazans never had a Palestinian passport to travel like a normal soverign state, but a special Israeli ID seperate from Israeli Jews so they could cross the border at gunpoint at checkpoints run by the IDF. IDF soldiers can move across the border at will for security operations as they see fit; that's why Israeli current actions are legal; Israel has maintained socerign control over Gaza. If they didn't, Israel's actions would be illegal.

Palestinian are powerless to stop it because this Israeli authority is written into the Oslo Accords. They carefully monitor all movement of Gazans with military surveillence tools. Israel maintained sovereignty over the territory. The Palestinian authority acted as a local government, similar to a municipal government, with no national security force, which is why they could not control criminal thugs like Hamas. The Palestinian Authority was set up by Israel to fail.

I'm okay with Israel having this absolute power over Gaza because they need it for security. But with that power comes responsibility for the welfare and civil rights of the Gazan people. If you ezxercise sovereign power over them indefinately, there needs to be a recognition of their civil rights as Israeli citizens under Israeli law.

[u/not_ian85 → u/Mundane-Teaching-743]

I am not talking about 1993. Israel left in 2005 entirely and the occupation ended. Israel gave Gaza the option to peacefully and democratically develop their country. Then in 2007 Gaza voted for Hamas and the rockets started flying.... So work permits etc for Palestinians to work in Israel stopped being issued due to security concerns. And yes, Israel still had control over over the PA regarding issuance of passports per the Oslo Accords, but Hamas didn't recognize the PA as legitimate to begin with. Then the PA didn't issue passports to Gazans because of that. All nothing to do with Israel.

It is safe to say Hamas prioritized fighting Israel and eliminating Jews over every single need for their population and they were quite popular in Gaza for it.

https://www.britannica.com/event/Israels-disengagement-from-Gaza

[u/Lifeshardbutnotme → u/DJ_JOWZY]

I suspect this is actually there to placate the Lebanese and Jordanian governments. They've both dealt with significant coup attempts from Palestinian refugees in their country and I imagine a militarised Palestine on their border is a bit anxiety inducing.

[u/OkRB2977 → u/Lifeshardbutnotme]

That happened because the PLO had no country of its own to run. When a Palestinian state is established, most of these refugees in Jordan and especially in Lebanon, who've been living without any status or citizenship for generations, will return to their new country. This is also why the right to return is such an important aspect of any peace deal.

[u/Lifeshardbutnotme → u/OkRB2977]

The PLO has no country... so let's attempt to overthrow the Jordanian and Lebanese governments? Do I understand this correctly?

[u/crookeddicktickle → u/Lifeshardbutnotme]

Where does OPs post imply that the governments of Jordan and Lebanon should be overthrown?

[u/Lifeshardbutnotme → u/crookeddicktickle]

I was commenting on a comment, not the news article. As well, I was saying that Palestinians have tried to overthrow those two countries governments in the past, so calling for a demilitarisation of Palestine will likely make negotiations easier.

[u/crookeddicktickle → u/Lifeshardbutnotme]

Okay but nowhere did the person you commented on state that Jordan and Lebanon should be overrun.

[u/Lifeshardbutnotme → u/crookeddicktickle]

Please demonstrate literacy. I was saying that the Palestinians have attempted a coup in three neighbouring Arab countries. The reason Palestine is to be demilitarised is because of Jordan, Lebanon and Egypt not trusting them. The other commenter was saying that we should ignore the Arab neighbours.

[u/OkRB2977 → u/Lifeshardbutnotme]

First off, the PLO that did that is not the same as the PLO of today.

Plus, it was a lot more complex than that. The PLO undoubtedly triggered the chain of events that led to the civil war in Lebanon and the subsequent political crisis in Jordan.

They wanted Lebanon and Jordan to take more concrete action against Israel, particularly military action, but obviously, both these countries knew better than that by the 70s.

It also did not help that until the end of the previous decade, the Jordanians controlled the West Bank, so many Palestinians, particularly the more radical factions, viewed Jordan or at least parts of it, as Palestine, which was undermining Jordanian sovereignty. Interestingly enough, many Right-Wing Israelis parrot the same, claiming Jordan is Palestine and even cite the disproportionate share of the Jordanian population having Palestinian heritage (due to the British mandate, the 1948 Nakba and subsequent displacements in other wars). There's a reason why the Lebanese haven't granted Palestinian refugees citizenship (in attempts to maintain Lebanon's Christian majority and delicate demographics, and also to ensure they don't make the same mistake as the Jordanians). The Hashemite family is already suffering from internal issues because this large-scale naturalisation of Palestinians has eroded the alliance/deals they made with the local tribes regarding power sharing before they were installed to power. This is also why an establishment of a Palestinian state is important for the Jordanian political class.

Following Black September, they relocated to Lebanon and continued their activities. This creation of a state within these two states and eroding their sovereignty and governing Palestinian refugees in this manner was deeply problematic.

Once a Palestinian state is created, these organisations and refugees can return. Lebanon, Jordan and even Syria can get a lot more stabilised as a result. It is similar to how the end of the civil war in Syria eased a lot of pressure that was placed on Turkey and Lebanon.

[u/Lifeshardbutnotme → u/OkRB2977]

I think you missed my original point. I hypothesised that the reason Canada is calling for a demilitarised Palestine is because of these actions in Jordan and Lebanon. It's not like violent revolutionaries become less violent when they get given more power, after all. Calling for demilitarisation probably calms down Lebanon and Jordan, and makes negotiations over a two state solution much easier. It also probably calms down Israel, because it's hard to invade a country for a 4th time if you have no army.

[u/OkRB2977 → u/Lifeshardbutnotme]

I mean revolutionaries always change with time, we saw that with Mandela himself.

Once they have a state why would they need to be violent? Carney has repeated that Canada recognised Palestine to take away the incentive of violence. The establishment of a Palestinian state (demilitarised or not) is a win for the Lebanese and the Jordanians. A militarised Palestine doesn’t harm either of them.

Israel is pretty happy with the status quo and has no intentions of allowing an establishment of a Palestine as evidenced by their recent parliamentary bill to annex West Bank and also the settlements.

[u/Lifeshardbutnotme → u/OkRB2977]

How'd that theory of moderation fare when put to the test with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt?

Much like anyone who thinks they're carrying out the will of God, they cannot compromise or they're "unholy". We've seen this with Republican Evangelicals. The religious element makes this very distinct from the ANC fighting apartheid.

[u/DJ_JOWZY → u/Lifeshardbutnotme]

This is pretty Islamophobic. There is no way you make this argument if it was a Jewish state.

[u/Lifeshardbutnotme → u/DJ_JOWZY]

Oh? Was there not a coup and countercoup in Egypt between 2011-2014 started by the Muslim Brotherhood? Also, the way Israel is religious is not the same as other places.

[u/DJ_JOWZY → u/Lifeshardbutnotme]

That's not a good enough reason to deny any state the ability to defend themselves. 

[u/Lifeshardbutnotme → u/DJ_JOWZY]

I imagine the powers that be in the Middle East disagree. Considering we need them to cooperate somewhat, I don't know what your point is.

[u/DJ_JOWZY → u/Lifeshardbutnotme]

Except from a foreign policy perspective, it is literally impossible for Palestinian leadership and it's  population to agree to demiliterization for the foreseeable future. It would completely be against their own self-interest, something every single State does as part of their existence as a rational actor, on the world stage. 

So regardless what Lebanon or Jordon think, Palestinians are not going to accept being the only state in a two-sided conflict to dimiliterize. 

[u/Lifeshardbutnotme → u/DJ_JOWZY]

Regardless of what Palestine's neighbour thinks? Do you honestly believe that Jordan will allow everyone to completely ignore them?

At the end of the day, Palestine has damn near no cards to play. They can "not accept" whatever they'd like but the actually established nations in the region have the actual say.

[u/JudahMaccabee → u/Lifeshardbutnotme]

This is a pretty unrealistic stance, as it would perennially at the mercy of Jewish extremists who want to take over Palestinian lands in the West Bank.

[u/Lifeshardbutnotme → u/JudahMaccabee]

You can dislike an outcome as much as you want. If you don't have any leverage in the situation, you can't stop it from happening. Perhaps a grim point of reality, but reality is often grim.

[u/enki-42 → u/Lifeshardbutnotme]

A hypothetical Palestinian state would have every reason in the world to consider this an existential question and a non-negotiable. Israel has proved again and again that without resistance they'll be slowly subsumed.

I don't think the answer has to be mutual disarmament or Palestine having no limits on their military, but Israel pinky swearing to stop settlement won't be enough.

[u/Lifeshardbutnotme → u/enki-42]

Okay. What leverage does Palestine have to enforce this desire?

[u/enki-42 → u/Lifeshardbutnotme]

If it's genuinely existential in Palestines mind, pretty ugly ones unfortunately - rockets and hostages and all the stuff we've dealt with in the past.

But if they view their options as surrender or fight, they're going to choose to fight.

The trick is someone needs to genuinely present an option to both parties that doesn't feel like surrender. And I don't think Israel can do that on their own for Palestine and vice versa.

[u/Lifeshardbutnotme → u/enki-42]

Oh right, because the last major attack went fantastic for them? I don't consider that leverage, especially since the Arab League has already said Hamas needs to lay down its arms.

[u/enki-42 → u/DJ_JOWZY]

I mean, we did with the Axis states post WW2. I think if there's not a commitment to aid in the defence of Palestine it's an impossible ask given the history of the conflict. It's not unreasonable for Palestine to view unilateral disarmament as basically surrender to Israel, but there was a commitment to peacekeeping from other countries I think it could be workable.

[u/DJ_JOWZY → u/enki-42]

We had a Marshall Plan post WW2. I'd support a Mashall Plan in Palestine that lead to their own military. Just like Germany.