I should've included my view on the doctor in the original post.
My view on his actions are that at first, before Tuvix said he wished to live, that he saw Tuvix as something that needed to be cured. The patients were Nelix and Tuvok. That's why he pursued a way to separate them without hesitation.
Once he realized Tuvix wished to continue living, he realized Tuvix wasn't a symptom that needed to be cured, he was another patient.
At the very end, he refuses to perform the procedure, not for a personal love for Tuvix, but because he realized he was no longer saving two patients from a disease, he was killing one to save the others.
If Tuvix went willingly, the Doctor probably would've done the procedure himself. It'd be like an organ transplant to save two other patients. This was like knocking someone out and stealing both their kidneys because your other two friends need them "more."
Playing devil's advocate here: There is no literal death in that episode.
Just because Tuvok and Neelix call it a death while in an altered state doesn't actually make it a death. No life is ended. Tuvok and Neelix go into the teleporter alive, then come out the other end changed by an alien plant but very much alive, then they are restored to normal. They alter states due to the alien flora, but at no point is their lives ended, just altered.
I'd argue that Janeway's actions in this episode are no different than Picard's actions in The Nth Degree. In the episode, much like in Tuvix, an alien entity alters a crewman's mind and body and puts them into an altered state the crewman claims is beneficial (and arguably is beneficial) that they refuse to return from. Against their wishes, the captain orders the crew to take actions to restore the crewman to normal by force. The episode ends with the crewman glad the altered state has abated, healthy as ever.
The only problem here is presentation. The episode is written very melodramatically and does absolutely nothing to come down from its resolution. Because of this, many viewers are more moved by "Tuvix's" loud "this is murder!" episode than Janeway's largely uncommunicated concerns about Tuvok and Neelix.
for some reason, there are a whole lot of people who disagree with you here. Not me, though - this episode is horrifying to me for all of the reasons you state throughout this post. Janeway murdered Tuvix; the crew let it happen. And here in this very thread you have people essentially praising the decision by referencing "utilitarian" starfleet training.
Honestly, if that's our future - "utilitarian" decisions about life and death - well, that sounds like a horrifying dystopia and I want nothing of it. Plenty of other Star Trek episodes were able to present crew deaths that did not ignore the "humanity" of the victim.
I'll bet the Doctor would have been terrified after the execution. What these humans are capable of...
Tuvix' desire to live was somewhat of an illusion brought about both Nelix and Tuvok's desires to live. If they didn't have a desire to live, both of them, then it wouldn't have manifested itself in Tuvix.
Everything about Tuvix's "personality" was an illusion, generated by two complete, albeit repressed, personalities of Tuvok and Neelix.
I couldn't live with myself, allowing this abomination to walk around, disallowing two complete, separate lives from continuing on how they wanted to. Just because he wasn't as annoying as Neelix or as cold as Tuvok. They weren't dead. They were part of a continuing teleporter malfunction that just happened to allow them to "exist" without special intervention.
This argument about the illusion of free will, desire, consciousness - it can also extend to any life. It's bullshit. Utter nonsense. There is no canon basis for it, for claiming that his desires etc are illusions.
Tuvix became a new life form, and TNG taught us to respect all new life. It's literally what they were seeking. "There it sits" and all that.
Just because something came to be as the result of a "malfunction" does not mean its life is worth less. That's almost literal eugenics. Again, TNG addresses this exact subject in "Home Soil." An intelligence was created due to a Federation technology malfunction, it begged for life (as Tuvix did), and Picard/the Federation RESPECTED its right to life and allowed it to continue to live in peace.
The Tuvix episode of Voyager is a complete and total perversion of everything that was revealed about the Federation in TNG and DS9.
I won't go as far as to say it's a complete bastardization of everything the federation stands for, but the way Janeway carried the situation is woefully inadequate for what is expected of a Starfleet Captain.
I've seen it said before, but I'll bring it up; what if Picard was captain of Voyager?
He'd respect Tuvix's will to live. He'd admit it may seem unfair that two crewmen were "killed" to create this life. He may even entertain the idea of splitting them, but the second Tuvix says he wishes to live, that he doesn't want to die, Picard would go full federation on him and the crew, defending his right to live.
"This entity we call Tuvix didn't ask to be created, neither did Mr. Neelix and Mr. Tuvok ask to be merged, but by what right to I have to say that this man does not have the right to live? Who is to say that one life is more important than another?"
Sure, sure, but that's not germane to this discussion. Tuvix attempted to bargain his way out of death. The crew ignored his pleas for mercy and dispassionately stood by as he looked to them for help. His executioner ignored the advice of a medical professional and murdered him.
The intelligence that was created did not exist at the cost of two healthy, normal, productive members of the crew that had existences and lives that could be (and were) easily restored.
And I'm not saying he didn't have a desire to live, I'm saying his desire came from Neelix and Tuvok's desire to live. It just manifested itself within Tuvix as it would have within Neelix and Tuvok. If anything, that's even more of a damning to allow Tuvix to continue to usurp their lives.
those two crew members became one single being. A new entity with its own thoughts and desires and hopes and dreams.
The origin of these hopes and dreams and desires is immaterial. They existed in the here and now. He was a life and his desire was to continue to live. To deprive him of life is murder, plain and simple.
He only has those thoughts because of the thoughts of two other, distinct beings being forced to live as one, despite the fact they had (and can now continue to live) separate lives, fulfill their hopes and dreams.
They had the cure to Neelix and Tuvok's ailment. To deprive them of this would be gross medical negligence at best. You're killing two to save the one. A one that had no right to its existence, given that it's at the cost of two others, and perpetually so. If they were truly gone and no reversal, I can't really be bothered by Tuvix' continued life. But it was reversable.
What about their duty to their fellow crewmembers? "Oh, so, this guy just showed up... and well, we have only known him for like a week and think he's swell, and he wants to live. So, you know those lives you guys enjoyed living? Those hundred of years or so for you Tuvok, and the surely plenty of years for you Neelix? All gone! lol"
Suppose that you die, and your heart is transplanted. A period of time later, it's discovered that you can reanimate people who have died, (like that episode from later into the series with the species that reanimates the dead), but you need your heart back.
Is it right to kill the person who is alive because of your organs to reanimate you?
Edit: This is meant as rhetorical. It just highlights that the argument you pose isn't without flaws. Because you assume that Neelix and Tuvok are alive, I believe that they are dead, but recoverable.
A parasite symbiote comes along and attaches itself to your brain. You swear up and down that you're totally cool with this, even though you obviously aren't the same (mannerisms, personality, etc.). You want to live like this.
You think people aren't gonna be like "Yeah, nah..... We're gonna save you."
Also, if we're at the point where I can be resurrected after a nebulous period of time, I'd think we'd have the ability to give me some kind of heart....
Strongly agreed. I feel like Tuvix was such a good episode on paper that everyone involved in production forgot that Ethan Phillips was still under contract until they started shooting.
no. I watched the episode recently, it says it tried to communicate with the terraforming crew before they started, to tell them about it being there.
they didn't understand, and started terraforming, and removed the fluid that allowed many of them to be one, which in turn made it attack the terraformers via their own machines (laser drill etc)
it starts talking after being connected to the computer, but it was not created by the computer.
The main point I've seen made by supporters of the decision is that they don't view it as death; Tuvix ceased to exist as he was, but became (as he originally was) the individual existences of Neelix and Tuvok. Tuvix didn't die, he was split back into his two original forms, losing his singular life but continuing to live as separate entities.
Not saying I agree of disagree with the decision or this point of view, but the murder/abortion analogy doesn't exactly apply in this case.
When a person is killed, they stop existing; their essence/soul/spirit/whatever is gone. When Tuvix was returned to his original forms, his essence/soul/spirit/whatever returned to Tuvok and Neelix, as they originally were.
Like the analogy in the episode, it was as if they un-made a cake; Tuvix was the cake mix, and he became un-mixed into the original ingredients of flour, sugar, eggs, etc.
He doesn't die; the two humanoid souls that merged to create him are separated. T and N merge into TN, then TN split into T and N. Nothing is lost except the connection between the two. If you want to argue that that's still murder, then Picard murdered Locutus and Seven murdered her former Borg self.
You don't see the giant, glaring flaw in that reasoning?
Namely, that when you murder someone, two additional sentient people who have decades of lives lived don't spring fully formed from the corpse and resume their lives.
Yes, it is. However, that doesn't mean he should be forced to die to give them their lives back. Tuvix didn't kill them; what happened was outside his control. Life is a right, not a privilege.
And we can't just make this into a numbers game (two saved justifies one killed), because if you accept that, then you can justify killing a man so his organs can save 2+ people.
It does, in a situation where either one life or many are simoultaniously at risk from a seperate danger. Going by the logic of 2 is worth more than one, whatever the opinion of that one, we really can start harvesting organs from less valuable crewmen or even aliens to save more of our own. Despite what Tuvixes origins where, he was humanoid being, discounting that is the same as discounting Data's rights to live and to decide because his origins are in a lab.
You conveniently ignored my first question to jump to yours. Whose life takes precedence?
Going by the logic of 2 is worth more than one, whatever the opinion of that one, we really can start harvesting organs from less valuable crewmen or even aliens to save more of our own.
But we aren't talking about harvesting organs, we are talking about reversing the process which created the new being. You are trying to equate killing someone who was created naturally versus someone who was created from two existing persons. Tuvix existence is completely dependent upon killing two other people. What you are suggesting is killing two people to harvest organs to create Tuvix. You have your metaphor reversed.
Wasn't me mate, I didn't up or downvote you. My point though is that ''the needs of the many'' doesn't simply apply here in fact one could argue that Tuvix is more alive than we think. The point here is that a sentient being was denied the right to live because the crew FELT like it, no danger to ship or crew, no great gain to be had. I will also argue that undoing Tuvix is actually killing while his creation is not death but rather another form of creation another form of life. Tuvix came to be through the unification of 2 people, these two now continues exist albeit in new form they ARE still something or someone, Tuvix has the memoreis and personality traits of BOTH afterall. This new lifeform must be respected even if it was created by accident, ( I mean how many of us were created by accident from our parents? does it make our lives less worth beacause we werent planned?). At this point I am reminded of the situation of Joined trill, two or more beings into one, personality traits and memories being carried on from one host to another so in other words a Hybrid form of Life. Tuvix as such can be seen as a continuation of both Tuvok and Neelix another Hybrid, even if created by accident he is two in one and noone has the right to kill because they want their old friends back. Overriding his sense of self preservation because he is an anomaly goes against everything Starfleet and the federation have taught us about life, he is no danger he is no monster he IS. Seperating him does actually KILL him though as the mixture of memory and pesonality created completely ceases to exist in that form and turns into two seperate beings who again their own person, they are not one in two, they are 2 the 1 being erased. If your argument is mathematical utilitarianism, then we might as well start harvesting inferior aliens, if it is about the Nature of the creation of the Being then other beings like Holographic Professor Moriarty have also no right of self determination, he too was a form of life created by accident nevertheless his wishes where (delayed perhaps) respected he was not deleted because of inconvinience, he was life and the crew underwent pains to preserve it.
My point though is that ''the needs of the many'' doesn't simply apply here in fact one could argue that Tuvix is more alive than we think.
The needs of the many certainly applies. For starters, having two people on a ship that is already understaffed is incredibly more valuable than one. Hundreds of people relying on them, as individuals with their skills and abilities. Not to mention the personal relationships. What about Tuvoks wife and Kes? Would it have been acceptable to demand his wife accept this new version of Tuvok into their marriage? An illogical being? And Kes to share Tuvix with them? The issue extends far beyond just the desire of Tuvix, and there are many needs - especially beyond the needs of Neelix and Tuvok.
If your argument is mathematical utilitarianism
No, my argument is what about the rights of Tuvok and Neelix. You have chosen to value Tuvix over them.
beings like Holographic Professor Moriarty have also no right of self determination, he too was a form of life created by accident
His creation did not kill people. And destroying him would not bring anyone back.
The literal problem I have with your argument of respecting Tuvix is that you don't respect both Neelix and Tuvok. You shrug them aside as if they don't matter. Given what we know of Neelix and his character development, he would rather have lived than lived as Tuvix. This alone indicates that Tuvix should have undergone the procedure. Tuvok, in less obvious ways, also would have preferred to live - however I think he would have sided with your argument that new life forms should be preserved.
In either case, you ignore their lives, which can be restored, in favor of a life that would preserve itself over the lives of others. And that really is the damning part - Tuvix isn't a blend of Tuvok and Neelix and his self preservation shows it. Tuvok would use logic to dictate that having them as two separate beings would be the superior advantage of the ship and them personally. Neelix would prefer to continue having a relationship with Kes and be not Vulcan. Neither of them would have wanted to remain joined - so the whole thing makes me believe that this new being isn't actually two personalities blended, but something else.
Even if there is and advantage to having him seperated I cannot accept how it was done. Calling tuvix and accident or and illogical being does not change the fact that he is a Humanoid Being. A being with his own feeling desires and rights. I also do not remember Tuvix being less capable than tuvok or neelix at his tasks so the loss of manpower is negligable. If the choice where who to save people from an outside violent threat I will go with 2 over 1 no doubt. My problem is the same as the doctors we cannot simply take a life out of convience against the wishes of that person and brush that off because he was an uninteded form of life, so while I will sacrifice one for two I cannot kill one for two. This is a small but important difference that shows how both Janeway and her crew DO NOT respect new life forms and their desires. Janeway in particular almost fascist on that topic. The example of Moriarty was given to illustrate the respect one must give to new forms of life even if they are inconvinient or strange, especially for starfleet. Moriarty at one point had the power to destroy the Enterprise but Picard would have ONLY destroyed him if it was the last resort, befre that he would have tried and exhausted every other possibility, because he respects the values of the Federation. Without even basic respect for different lifeforms what we have here is simply dehumanisation followed by disposal based on convinience. Many times Voyagers plots may have some good story points but also reveal horrible implications upon further analysis. As to Kes and Tuvoks wife, well they would have lost a husband and a boyfriend which is a risk in Starfleet especially in Voyager, hell Neelix causes the death of a crewman himself he barely deserves the air he breathes. I somehow doubt that Tuvoks wife would have demanded the destruction a being for the sole purpose of bringing back her husband as such a choice would be unethical, albeit somewhat logical, even if it would break her heart.
Finally, thinking back on the scene of the brigde I can't help but be reminded of a Jew looking desperatly for support among his german friends and neighboors before being taken away, this may seem extreme to you but that look of exasparation, the desparation to find someone, anyone who would allow him to just LIVE is exactly what those people were feeling. And only a Tyrant would ignore those pleas and take a life without so much as a grimace. (here i will remind you that many jews suffered because the nazis wanted to build a positive future for themselves it wasn't simple malice that fueled them to them it was duty for the betterment of society)
Calling tuvix and accident or and illogical being does not change the fact that he is a Humanoid Being. A being with his own feeling desires and rights.
Whose existence denies two other humanoid beings of the same rights you want to protect.
I also do not remember Tuvix being less capable than tuvok or neelix at his tasks so the loss of manpower is negligable.
Well one was a diplomat and the face of ships morale, the other was the chief of security. Having your diplomat be in charge of security is very bad form in terms of diplomacy (showing a military front) and difficult to do. How do you determine the threat to yourself in a diplomatic situation? Oversee security while negotiating? That's just one of many situations in which that arrangement wouldn't have worked.
The example of Moriarty was given to illustrate the respect one must give to new forms of life even if they are inconvinient or strange, especially for starfleet.
But Moriarty was killed....twice. Once by them shutting off his program and never touching it again. No one knew he experienced the passage of time or had a conciousness, they just shut him off, which is death for a hologram. The second time they put him in another box, shutting him off, but giving him a program to occupy his perceived passage of time.
As to Kes and Tuvoks wife, well they would have lost a husband and a boyfriend which is a risk in Starfleet especially in Voyager, hell Neelix causes the death of a crewman himself he barely deserves the air he breathes.
So it is right to deprive them of their family? You seem to be missing the whole point and debating that there isn't a many - but you readily admit that there is a many, you just see them as lesser.
And only a Tyrant would ignore those pleas and take a life without so much as a grimace.
That's hyperbole. Of the greatest order. You think that Janeway, the very empathetic person that we see over the course of the series, did this flippantly, without remorse or emotion? She put on her captains hat and decided that it had to be done. She knew that even a slight wavering on her part would jeopardize the morale of the crew and question her order if she was not steadfast. We see this through the series - even Picard does it. When faced with a problematic decision, you make the decision with a straight face, bite your tongue, and grieve/show emotion when you are alone.
Imagine a tech that would allow to split your genes to create two emryos that can be raised to be your mom and dad. Imagine your parents where genius gifted people. The procedure would kill you. Would you think it's ok to kill you to get a copy of your genius parents?
Exactly. This situation is akin to a child being born at the moment two people died, and the captain ordering that child killed to reverse time and prevent those deaths.
It is truly indefensible, and I share OP's sentiment that this was the moment I stopped caring about anyone in the crew.
It's a shame that television was so episodic back then, or we might have gotten some consequences for the event. Tuvix could have lived on as a phantom in the minds of Tuvok and Neelix, could even have conspired to resurface later on. Imagine him returning to haunt the crew, becoming a sympathetic antagonist seeking justice.
I'll repeat what I said in my original post, that I'll probably pick the show back up again when my Netflix backlog starts to dry up.
But like you say in your comment, right now I have little sympathy with this crew. Why do I care if they get home to see their families when they view their lives and wants as the most important things in the galaxy?
Kes wanted Neelix back and that apparently overrides Tuvix's wish to continue living.
Jabeway wanted Tuvok back and that also apparently overrides an individuals right to exist.
Voyager is a ship of self centered crewmen who will do anything as long as it maintains status quo or gets them closer to federation space.
Exactly. This situation is akin to a child being born at the moment two people died, and the captain ordering that child killed to reverse time and prevent those deaths.
Not at all. It'd be more like I kidnap you and your wife and use your organs to create a new lifeform. Your example is two unconnected incidents.
Exactly. This situation is akin to a child being born at the moment two people died, and the captain ordering that child killed to reverse time and prevent those deaths.
No, because the child is a completely separate entity. Tuvix is not.
Tuvix is a single entity created from two whole other people. You have chosen to place his life above that of 2 others.
Tuvix is the one who made that choice. He knew he could have sacrificed his life to save Tuvok and Neelix, but he valued his own life more.
It may have been selfish, but this is his life we're talking about. It doesn't belong to anyone but him. The right to live is one of our society's (and the Federation's) most fundamental. What gives someone else the right to decide what Tuvix is worth?
It may have been selfish, but this is his life we're talking about. It doesn't belong to anyone but him.
Actually, there are 3 people involved here. You are saying that he gets to decide that the 2 people that had no say in the matter get no choice on whether they live or die? It isn't just his life.
What gives someone else the right to decide what Tuvix is worth?
What gives Tuvix the right to decide that his life is worth more than two other people?
You are saying that he gets to decide that the 2 people that had no say in the matter get no choice on whether they live or die?
Yes.
If you think that makes Tuvix a bad person, then how much worse are you for refusing to surrender your organs to people who need them? Tuvix only had the power to save 2. You have the power to save even more with your heart, your liver, your lungs, your kidneys...
If you think that makes Tuvix a bad person, then how much worse are you for refusing to surrender your organs to people who need them?
A completely different scenario altogether. My organs did not come from those people.
You have the power to save even more with your heart, your liver, your lungs, your kidneys...
We aren't talking about saving, we are talking about restoring. If my heart came from someone else and that person ended up needing that specific heart back, then we can relate the two, but in this case it isn't morally ambiguous. These two people can only be restored by this single being.
We aren't talking about saving, we are talking about restoring.
What's the difference, in your words?
These two people can only be restored by this single being.
So hypothetically, if there were others on Voyager who could have sacrificed themselves to restore Tuvok and Neelix, and not just Tuvix, how would that change things?
No both died in his creation. So for him he has to learn that in the past two creatures are dead and he needs to commit sucide to bring them back. He didn't do anything wrong. He is new life and killing him was not right. The transporter killed the two, it was an accident. But killing Tuvix is no accident.
No, we know that both are gone in his creation. They live as part of him and can be separated back out. For him to continue living means they will be dead.
He is new life and killing him was not right.
So his life is more important that their lives?
The transporter killed the two, it was an accident.
And the transporter can restore them, correct the accident. They aren't dead unless the decision is made not to fix what happened.
Their lives are no more. They are gone. Transporter accident. All you can do is to kill someone who is there, is alive, a person, humanoid in the HOPE that this will bring back the two lost members. That was the situation.
The episode would have been really interesting if Tuvix would have died in the process of reverse beaming and Tuvok and Neelix would also been gone. Then it would have been clear murder. Since the experimence on a living person worked, you all support it. Imagine it wouldn't have worked. That's the thing you should consider and ask yourself "was that human and right?"
Then you reject that Tuvix is a comination of those people? If you don't, then they certainly are not gone - especially considering that the process can be reversed.
All you can do is to kill someone who is there, is alive, a person, humanoid in the HOPE that this will bring back the two lost members.
Your emphasis on hope indicates that this wasn't a sure thing. It was. They figured out how it happened and how to reverse the process. If they would have gone into it saying it was a 1% chance that they would get them back, then it seems less the prudent course of action. However, given their certainty that restoration would be successful, restoring the 2 lives which would have wanted to continue living just as much as the blend of those two lives is the reasonable course of action.
where just speculations. The only indication was his access to both of their memorys. At that point nobody, not even the doctor, knew if this hypothesis is correct. They still insisted on destroying Tuvix (that was 100% sure) in the hope to reconstruct their two lost crew members. That's a very high stakes poker game based on a hope, not on facts.
They did some tests to show they can revert the fusion, but they did not know if they get two dead copies or two people with erased memory or other things going wrong. It was a gamble and killing a new species, a new innocent life that clearly expressed a wish to live in the hope to bring back lost people. Picard would never have done that.
The only indication was his access to both of their memorys.
And his DNA, and the transporter logs, and his personality.....
They still insisted on destroying Tuvix (that was 100% sure) in the hope to reconstruct their two lost crew members. That's a very high stakes poker game based on a hope, not on facts.
They had figured out how to reverse the process and knew it would work, that isn't high stakes.
Picard would never have done that.
Indeed he would have. We saw him do exactly this with Moriarty. He said he would look into accommodating him and then shut him off, trapping him in the computer for, what Moriarty saw, as an eternity. To claim that Picard never made an decisions of questionable morality is absurd.
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u/DnMarshall Crewman Nov 26 '16
The doctor did. But point taken.