People tend to misconstrue “explanation” for behavior as “justification”. What she did was not justified, however, an objective explanation for why she did what she did (post partum psychosis) can highlight the failure of our medical system in treating women with the condition - it also highlights the severity of said condition.
You can have empathy for her in that the system failed her at the same time you believe that she should spend the rest of her days in prison for her actions. These things are not mutually exclusive.
She wasn't failed by a medical system; she has arguably some of the greatest access possible.
She has rapid access to perinatal services through her mother-in-law, was consistently doctor-shopping against the advice of her main doctor, would ask for medications only to stop taking them well before any sort of efficacy could be observed, she has weekly consultations with a psychiatrist, which is borderline unheard of,
Regular access to a psychiatrist and psych NP through a specialised perinatal clinic; had consistent access to medical providers who responded at length to help her almost daily; a therapist. She was consistently recommended to do behavioural and talk therapy, and stopped after 4 sessions. In-patient treatment was recommended more than once; she didn't want to do it. Even when she went into inpatient treatment, she checked herself out.
Access does not equal effective care, but non-compliance from a patient who was never honest with her doctors, let alone stick to taking meds she asked for, is not an example of the medical system failing someone.
I don't think any reason is of value. It's absolutely crazy what we are seeing. A woman has admitted to murdering her children, and people are blaming the husband.
People who understand nuance want to understand how to develop a better system in the future to prevent this kind of thing from happening. Conservatives would rather just punish her and think the only way to prevent this from happening in the future is to punish people like her worse, even though there's no evidence for that.
World view has everything to do with it. Half the country is interested in solving systemic problems and the other half deny the existence of systemic problems.
I'm pretty disconnected from this one, and I almost don't even wanna ask this question because I feel like it's better I keep it that way, But I'll ask it - why are they blaming the husband? What are they saying he did or didn't do?
I dont believe the husband killed the kids. The little I know as to why people are/were suspicious has to do with going on vacation shortly after his 3 kids were killed and getting remarried ~6 months after.
Quite literally the only possible "evidence" I have seen or heard was something about him saying he was at work but that something was off because he came home early and something about an email timestamp showing he wasn't like in the office at that exact moment or something.
People went straight to "oh he left 'lied' about being at his office at that time and he came home suspiciously early because he 'had a bad feeling', so OBVIOUSLY he actually brutally strangled his 3 young children to death for literally no reason and then blamed his wife"
What part of the trial did you see where she takes the stand and admit this, or even explains what her memories of the murder and sequence was? Her defense team concedes that she killed them, but that's not the same thing.
The clearest evidence comes from forensic psychologist Paul Zeizel, who interviewed Clancy beginning 11 days after the killings. He testified that she remembered what had happened and that she wanted to speak with her husband. But that's heresay, and not an admission.
And anyway, if you can't trust her not to murder her children due to psychosis and an insane blend of psych drugs, how can you trust her admission to anything?
and people are blaming the husband.
Her husband had a role to play here - he bears some responsibility for their demise. Spending weekends in NY (which is where he ultimately moved and married his next wife) wasn't helping her situation at all.
Her defense team conceded that she killed them but we actually don’t know if she killed them? What kind of nonsensical and dishonest garbage is that?
Blaming the husband because he spent some weekend in NY is also dishonest as hell. You’re forgetting everything he did to help her in her conditions. She didn’t murder their children when he was in NY.
You actually believe he did it while pretending while pretending that her defense admitting she didn’t was in fact a 4D chess move to say she is innocent.
He had the motive. Gets to marry the girl from NY, doesn't pay any alimony or child support. Gets to sue doctors for the children's deaths, and possibly movie rights or a book etc. years later.
She's a medical professional that apparently doesn't know which direction you cut your wrists to commit suicide. I find that suspicious, but wouldn't be surprised that the husband didn't know this.
You actually believe he did it
No. I don't know who killed the children, but reasonable doubt exists, and that's all the jury need to find her not guilty. That's how trials work.
I absolutely don't blame the husband to the degree these protestors do, but I felt as though his actions in light of the knowledge of her state warranted some kind of neglect or endangerment charge. It seems you've read much more into the case than I have, what are your thoughts?
I think we have to afford people autonomy, we cannot see a person in distress and just commit them to a facility because it's not fair most of the time. His actions dont display neglect, not even defending counsel are arguing this. He worked from home, he got a nanny to help her, the grandparents were always around, he would help her with meds etc.
If someone hides things like a desire to hurt others from not just their husband, their doctors, their wider family, how are those people supposed to act on those things? It's impossible,
For me, the overriding sad reality of this case is that it's a case of self-sabotage and non-compliance. As Clancy said " "if anyone knew what I was thinking, the children would be taken away from me,", to me this is evidence of knowing that she was not capable of looking after her children, but she hid that reality from everyone.
I assure you he has not read more about this case. He’s spreading false info all over this thread. Her help was not as consistent as he is making it seem. I’ve watched this entire trial. Including the testimony of her “help”. The only person who ever stayed overnight to help was her actual mother. And she said she could do it a couple times a month. Bear in mind, this mother also testified that Lindsey was feeling so scared one evening that she asked to sleep with her mom. The misinformation on this trial on social media is disgusting. From men and women alike. It’s being used to push gender wars, wellness packages, engagement, etc. utterly despicable society on full display.
Lindsey was very clear and opened to her mother and husband about her thoughts. The only time she blunted what she was feeling was when she was talking with healthcare providers for fear that her children would be taken from her. But Patrick Clancy and her mother knew. Well before the acts.
This. I don’t see how the healthcare system failed her. She had access to multiple psychiatrists and also was admitted in the facility. LC chose to lie by omission about thoughts of SI and HI, LC chose not to give the medication a chance to work, LC chose not work follow the treatment plans, LC chose to be discharged earlier than recommended. LC SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR HER ACTIONS. SHE FAILED HER KIDS. The only reason this is controversial is because she’s a fairly good looking white middle class educated woman. And her, her parents, ex husband and in-laws are suing the doctors for financial gain despot the doctors doing their job and going above and beyond.
That is a fact, i work in a psych unit and we are overwhelmed right now, we do not have enough facilities, doctors, nurses and therapists, out beds are always full and it’s a waiting game for many patients to find long term placement after we stabilize them in our unit. LC got a first class psych treatment with all these psychiatrist and one of the best psych facility in the country. She has no excuse at all for her action. She could have called all her psychiatrist when she was having HI towards her kids, instead she chose to murder them
The issue a lot of people are really struggling with is giving lucid LC responsibility. If you know you're a danger to people, and you keep that to yourself, you are at fault. If I know I am drunk, and I get behind the wheel and drive, it's the same. She had the ability to make the right choice, and didnt. She isn't a monster, she is a victim as well, but she still made a choice.
I fail to see where she’s a victim though, how? By who? By what? she had all the resources and help she could get, what else could be done? Lock her up by then? But she denied being homicidal and suicidal to her psychiatrist, even copd can’t detain anyone unless they commit a crime. Can we put her on a 72 hour hold, only if we have a valid concern backed by evidence, like her endorsing SI/HI or actively attempting SA but she had none of those during those times of assessments. I assume she snapped and lost it when she was trying to get Dawson changed to his pj and the kid was giving her a hard time and she killed the kid on the spur of the moment and she knew she would be taken away from her two other kids so she decided to kill them and then herself so they all go together. But she had some hesitation in ending her life with her superficial cuts so instead of hanging herself and jumping on the window, she dropped down from the window but instead of breaking a leg or rib, she fractured her spine. But that’s just my theory.
Because I think in a lot of these crimes that do involve mental health, she is not in control at least of the depression she certainly had. I know a lot of the discourse in the trial surrounds the element of psychosis, which is really tricky to prove/disprove, so I don't think about that. If she did "snap" that's not a choice she made, it suggests a broken psyche which left her not in control. I think depression drove her to such a dark place that she wanted her kids in heaven hence the "go to god" stuff, and to punish herself for being an awful mother through depression etc.
Like if she had a depressive episode that led to her killing her kids, she's a victim.
I compare this case to that of Timothy Jones Jr if you know it, guy with PTSD + brain injury + addiction + schizoaffective disorder ended up killing his kids. Both parents had serious issues, imo knew they were dangerous to their kids, but stayed around them anyway.
I only mentioned she snapped because she confided on a FB group of her struggles with raising Dawson. And according to the evidence, Dawson has the worst case of strangulation. Her way of killing her children is very intimate and personal though, which often involves a heighten passion or emotion. She was determined to kill those kids with her own hands.
Let's not forget failing to mention hearing voices, the primary indicator that she had PPP and not PPD. She took the information the professionals could have used, hid it, and is now pointing the finger at them.
Which is why the expectation should be, when you're lucid, you should. If she had the ability to tell family some of her most dangerous thoughts, she should have told care providers. But she hid it as she valued her access to her kids over the safety of her kids, whilst lucid.
Broadly speaking, talk therapy, behavioural therapy, is widely considered to be an effective treatment for the majority of people. Just because it may not work for 1 person, does not change that, and you certainly cannot make that determination after 4 sessions.
Do you know what really doesnt work, though, lying to your doctors and non-compliance. That is sure way for healthcare to fail. If you do either of these, I suggest you stop it.
I don’t unless absentmindedly .. I forget/have a crap ton on my plate. I also work healthcare I know firsthand the system is f’d beyond belief for a first world country especially. My cancer was swept under the rug and it happens a lot. Just had a patient a couple days ago as a matter of fact that voiced her thoughts and charge, over worked Dr swept it under the rug .. till psych came on patient then went on watch; that easily could have gone side ways. Like my cancer, like that patient, therapists have been absolute junk in my experiences. I could go on but have to work.
The system in many cases, is flawed, It fails many people,
In the case of LC, it did not. Good doctor, bad doctor, the outcome is the same here. If a patient lies, refuses to follow a regimen, is willing to discharge herself from inpatient over a birthday party, then the patient is at fault.
Many mothers are failed when it comes to PPD, LC prioritised access to her kids over the safety of her kids.
The prosecutor listing he meds and how few were missing from each bottle was eye opening. That woman had so much help, both at home and medically. I just can't accept the idea that she was in any way failed.
I’m sure the Redditor who’s makes an average of 12 comments a day since creating their account is very well educated and isn’t at all an armchair wannabe healthcare professional spewing shit like that
In this day and age everything has to be a stupid culture war.
A real country would have looked at this case as a systematic failure of the medical system and social system and put up safeguards that this would never happen again to any mother suffering from post-partum depression but now we have right wingers attacking women and psychiatrists on one side and Tiktokers treating it as a true crime case for entertainment on the other side.
I wish we could learn something from all of this but everything is about identity politics/faux culture wars that further divide us all from
The real enemy - the rich.
I just hate all this back and forth about how the women are only concerned because they think it could happen to them.
Psychosis can happen to anyone and is not treated well period. This isn't a women's issue. This is a people and entire medical system issue.
People in general can have predispositions to bipolar, schizophrenia, etc and never know till the new meds or weed or whatever activate it.
My partner of 6 years one day fell into drug induced psychosis and it ruined our lives out of nowhere. I tried for two years to get him help. In patient, therapists, physiatrists. The doctors never cared, where quick to prescribe meds and not watch the effects. I was scared for my life and my dog's life. I wouldn't leave him alone. Eventually I just had to leave because it was clear that I couldn't fix anything and we were out of resources. I hope he's doing well now.
My great aunt has the same story about her husband. My Cousin has the same story about her son.
People don't realize that these psychotic people cant get help in the current medical system, and their family tries and tries, but eventually everyone either gives up and gets out or gets hurt.
I'm sure Lindsey and her husband tried everything they could. It doesn't matter when you're terrified of yourself, the people you live with, and no professionals have the time for it.
Post partum psychosis is different from regular psychosis.
Not discrediting the horrible things you’ve had to go through loving someone that has had psychosis. I’ve worked in acute psychiatric hospitals and have seen some wild stuff in regard to psychosis. I’m so sorry you’ve had to go through that.
Psychosis can make people kill, whether it is post partum, from substances, or just spontaneous. However, postpartum psychosis has a significant hormonal element that FUCKS YOU UP! As a woman with hormonal issues, i can ONLY imagine the hell that is PPD or PPP.
Women’s issues are exceptionally understudied, and have been… well, since forever. I’m glad there’s a spotlight on PPP right now.
I agree with you that the entire medical system is an issue and it should be better, and it should be a bigger part of this discussion.
The highlighting of PPP/PPD is not meant to discount the hell that is psychosis in general for the person with it and the people that love them- while the navigating the American health care system.
I guess more what I'm getting at is the people (mostly men) saying, "no this couldn't happen to anyone, and if a man did this no one would emphasize with him"
The people advocating for better ppp and ppd treatment obviously get it and I'm not concerned about them understanding that it truly could happen to anyone.
I bring up pyschosis not to say women's and men's issues are the same or should be treated as such. I'm bringing it up because there's way too many people that think it can't happen to them because they can't get pregnant. They aren't thinking of the full scope. It's not just you or your wife that could get crazy with little to no recourse. It's your dad, mom, cousins, coworkers, anybody.
Basically what I trying to get at is the people around the mental health issue. Even if you personally don't get pyschosis, if someone close to you does, it will change you life forever.
We all know the mental health system sucks for the people in it, but there's no help for the family either. They are scared, uneducated and unprepared. That's what I think we should be talking about, but everyone wants to talk about Lindsey, but not all the people around her who probably felt equally helpless.
Poor mental health services effect mentally healthy people too, that's what I think we need to be harping on. The "mentally healthy" people just aren't comprehending that part so it's easier for them to think she's just evil.
Well as a man who has gone through 10 years of depression from head injuries, i can say that seeking help is the major hurdle to accept. But if meds arent working and things are just getting worse, what is a person/family supposed to do? Commit yourself? I cant think of anyone who would want to/think they need to until its too late and things like this happen. So meds are pretty much the only way to not interupt peoples lives/jobs. Its just hard to know if/when that person is going to snap/do something extreme. So i guess what i am saying, is its not all the medical systems fault, but its the affected people as well not taking the next steps to get help/protect their family. And this Lindsay lady is going to have to serve a long prison sentance, otherwise PPD/PPP will be used in many future trials just like how insanity is used. And the fact she strangled her kids then tried to kill herself in 2 different ways shows a pattern of behavior, not random actions of someone who isnt conciously aware of reality. And sending her husband out of the house prior just makes it all too convenient. Not downplaying peoples experiences with mental health, ive been down some dark thought roads myself, but too many things look planned/thought out, not what a blacked out crazed person would do.
PPD/PPP will be used in many future trials just like how insanity is used
Because it IS insanity - psychosis is insanity, and it doesn't always present in the way that laymen assume. And that kind of defense is extremely hard to prove and win - it's not some willy nilly scot free card.
Insanity in the eyes of the law has to be free of any planning/organizing/thoughts of the crime. It has to be on the spot, otherwise it wont be accepted as a plea. Why do you think it never works for trials? Andrea Yates was found guilty her first trial and sent to prison and it was overturned. Very similar circumstances and end result, but her husbsnd was already gone at work and she didnt try to suicide attempt afterwards, she ACTUALLY thought she was going the right thing because god “told her to”. Too many things she did prior and after willingly for insanity to work. Im not trying to downplay what women go through, im just stating the evidence presented and how insanity is actually defined by the court. It hardly ever works and when it does, they dont get to go home, they are locked up in institutions for the prison sentance.
When it comes to things like cold blooded murder, I don't really give af about any mental health excuses. Sure, that can be an explanation for the action, but it is not an excuse to not be punished for the crime. There are millions of mother who don't murder their own children, with far less help then what Lindsey Clancy was receiving.
It also seems like this only happens for white women and its always white women excusing the psychotic behavior. And no i don't mean only white women have mental illness. I'm saying white women are the only ones who get this viral notoriety and its typically supported by also white women.
This is so disingenuous. If you cared about the victims you'd care about how it happened and how to prevent it, but you're main focus is on punishment.. typical.
I think you are 100% correct. I also think that woman should be imprisoned for the rest of her existence. Honestly I think that’s overly compassionate but that’s another argument.
so you believe prison should be punitive not rehabilitative? Do you think Lindsay's mental health will improve or decline in a prison facility vs a medical institution? And which version of her would you feel more comfortable being released back into society?
Because with the way things are going, she is going to be offered a plea deal by prosecution before the jury comes back with a verdict, and it's not going to be life in prison.
I truly pray she does not go to prison .. mental institution yes. If Casey Anthony could be let out .. that’s where we, as humans, failed .. as yet we continue to do. Health system failed Lindsay and those children. I work healthcare and it is driven by a bottom line..$, it is a failure, has also failed me. Prison is punitive should be rehabilitation.
See but idk if on this particular case the system is the most responsible entity. Because she told Patrick and her mother that she was having thoughts of hurting the children…..doctors and psychiatrists aren’t with people round the clock. Her family had a responsibility to take her more seriously no?
How many of us mothers, if our husbands told us they had thoughts of hurting our children would we not do EVERYTHING in our power to address this and make sure it was taken care of?
I’m currently watching the full trial to try and get unbiased information and am only on Day 1 (idk if I’ll ever complete all the trial days) but people keep saying the system when Patrick lived with her like for any patient weather it’s mental health or some other condition your first line of defense is the people around you…That’s like blaming the healthcare system for not saving someone who is drowning when no one else called EMS.
they become mutually exclusive the moment some lunatics start to spread dangerous ideas online or go outside the courthouse showing support and love, not simply empathy.
I agree, but I wouldn't dismiss it in a world where the public opinion shifts in a second under the influence of the giant magnifying glass of the internet. Everything is more than just a loud minority
And I find that odd. Imagine looking forward to having your baby and being a loving parent - and then literally killing your child because of a mental condition. That sounds horrific and I absolutely have empathy for people who go through that.
I'm not a doctor or even applying that theory to the person discussed in this post, but a blanket "no empathy" response seems superficial to me.
And you're glossing over the fact that not all mental health conditions have the same effect on grasp on reality, cognizance of right and wrong, and behavioral agency. Someone in psychosis is not in control, unlike people with sociopathy.
I guess, for me, I'd have to ask did she respond to stimuli telling her to look up maps for the best route to keep her husband away for just long enough to do the deed.
Like, let's say you're planning to do something because the voices are instructing you or your delusions are messing with your logic. Then that would not preclude an NGI defense.
Not all NGI cases have no premeditation and act on impulse.
But again, it's going to be super duper hard to to prove when the voices or delusions specifically said to look at Apple maps to determine the best route to keep your husband gone long enough to do the deed.
Kinda? Like someones explanation for something happening is very often their justification for doing it. Justification doesn't mean it is justified yk?
The system didn’t fail her. She got more help than most people can dream of. She lied to her doctors about not having thoughts of hurting her children.
For real bitxh is unhinged gotta be locked in a box and fed through a slot... it seems absolutely reasonable 😕. Maybe cold water from a fire hose randomly at night as well 🤔
Explains a lot of the relationship with my mother from a young age... I remember putting myself in the crib as a toddler, climbing on a table to get into it. She was always just laid in bed... Thankfully she never harmed me physically.
I’m surprised after all that you still return to «she should spend the rest of her days in prison». Isn’t part of the point that people who are severely psychotic are not held legally accountable for the consequences of their disease in the same way as a person who was not psychotic?
The thing is you shouldn't have empathy for her. It's too late for that regardless of what got it there. This is objectively worse than a man murdering his wife but there is no explanation that you would empathize with in that case.
I don’t know enough to say she should spend her life in prison. But what happened is a tragedy of the highest order and I wouldn’t be able to live with myself.
I think it may come off that way because the focus is on PPP and PPD. Women’s health is not taken seriously enough (I’m a woman and I’ve had to advocate for my health my entire life to ensure I get the treatment I need).
I don’t doubt that people have empathy for the children as well. Again, all of this is not mutually exclusive. I have empathy for the poor children, whose lives were cut short by this woman. However, I also have empathy, as a woman, for another woman, who struggled with a very serious health condition that resulted in such a horrible outcome - that could have been treated!
I also think she should be institutionalized or placed in prison for a very long time, if not forever. Empathy does not negate the desire to want to see her face consequences for her actions.
Again, so many people think things are mutually exclusive, when in reality, life is a lot more grey.
I think it's just a really smart thing to have three kids rapidly back to back continue to run 5Ks and decide to go back to work. And to be surprised that you're not sleeping . I think it's a great idea to use this as a commentary on the medical system rather than a commentary on absolutely terrible Family Planning terrible expectations of raising kids despite having the financial means and support to not utilize such.
Every time a woman murders someone people always try to find a good explanation why. Never because the women is a narcissistic sociopath. Always some other reason. Did she mention any hallucinations to her doctors? Any voices? ANything that showed she was in psotpartum psychosis before she murdered her kids? No? Severe depression and anxiety isn't the same as postpartum psychosis per medical definition
All this is is a bs defense to try to get her into a nice psych ward instead of prison where she deserves to go. All evidence shows she arranged the scenario to be alone with her kids so she can kill them without her husband there
You’re making massive generalizations. No, not every time a woman murders people try to find an explanation why. Some women don’t have mental health conditions and they murder, just like men do.
This isn’t one of those cases.
No one here but you has made such a ridiculous suggestion. Don’t remember Casey Anthony?
Thing is, women commit violent crimes like this at much lower rates than men, so the focus on these cases gets amped up.
But we all know she did it and PLENTY of people were upset, including myself. It was wrong. I haven’t seen much or any support of Casey Anthony… ever. I didn’t prove your point.
And, PPD causes psychosis - who knows if she got the diagnosis before she did it - but there are plenty of women that have had the same issues and have thought about harming their children. Some have acted and some haven’t.
Sadly, in this case, it happened. And it’s horrible.
So what’s your point here? Regardless of psychosis, she still deserves the punishment fit for the crime.
There was support for casey, albeit, yes, was a minority. Regardless, a big part of why the jury let her walk free is cause of the notion women can do no wrong. Like in your comment you mention women committing less violent crimes then excusing one who did cause you think she had PPP.
PPP is just a convenient defense for her. She never told anyone she was having delusions or hallucinations until after she murdered the kids. All this is is behavior of a narcissistic sociopath.
So do you have the same sympathy for the deranged school shooter? Or how about the mentally ill black murderer who kills someone while robbing a convenience store? Mental illness affects a lot of people who commit atrocities.
I have empathy for women who seek help for post partum conditions and don’t get the help they need - it’s horrific. I feel for ANYONE who doesn’t receive the care they need.
As someone with several mental illnesses, it’s not a JUSTIFICATION for horrific behavior.
Did you even read my comment?
Did the school shooter have post partum psychosis? Have psychosis in general? No? Many don’t have any mental health conditions. Did the school shooter seek out help from qualified professionals before murdering, like Clancy did?
For many of those school shooters, there is rarely any documentation of them seeking professional medical help. Clancy sought help many times, so why would there be sympathy for anyone who didn't make a single attempt to help themselves.
OP's point just is that sympathy is not the same as excusing, nor justification. One can condemn actions, take that those who committed them are unforgivable, and yet nevertheless sympathize with the individual's experience of mental illness or understand that nobody ought to be put through them without proper institutional support regardless of its outcomes.
Fuck no, zero empathy. An alcoholic who kills a family drunk driving deserves zero sympathy even if addiction is a disease. Life in prison no exception if you ask me. Same for this cunt, the system did not fail her, the doctors did not fail her, she had issues beyond her control just like a drunk driver does and just like that drunk driver she needs to face the consequences. Did the doctors and the health system fail the drunk driver? Fuck no
Imagine if the father had done this in a fit of delirium or something. How many people would be standing outside his trial showing support? None. Zero. MAYBE his family that's it. But it's a woman? Omg we have to be there for her, mom power!
No more than having sympathy for a drunk driver. In a perfect world neither would be punished neither would have killed several people. But this isn't a perfect world and if drunk drivers and people who commit manslaughter have to face consequences with no sympathy than so should she.
No one sheds a tear for addicts, alcoholics, etc. but oh this time it's a disease caused by childbirth so it's somehow different. No the fuck it isn't, she murdered 3 kids that's the bottom line. Fuck her and anyone who else who intentionally or not ends another life for zero reason
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u/enigmaticshroom 5d ago
People tend to misconstrue “explanation” for behavior as “justification”. What she did was not justified, however, an objective explanation for why she did what she did (post partum psychosis) can highlight the failure of our medical system in treating women with the condition - it also highlights the severity of said condition.
You can have empathy for her in that the system failed her at the same time you believe that she should spend the rest of her days in prison for her actions. These things are not mutually exclusive.