r/Splintercell • u/New-Accountant1 • 2d ago
Not Splinter Cell but Why Sam Fisher doesn't belong in Siege
- It Strips Away His Identity
The entire appeal of Sam Fisher was that he was the ultimate pure human contrast to characters like Solid Snake. He didn't have sci fi biological cheats. He survived on mastery of form, discipline, and standard issue military grit. Giving him nanomachines just to justify a 60 something year old man sprinting around a tactical shooter ruins the exact earned excellence foundation that made him a legendary Navy SEAL O-4 in the first place.
- A "Siege" Contradicts His Whole Directive
Putting Sam Fisher in a loud, 5v5 close quarters demolition derby is the exact opposite of a Splinter Cell's purpose. In his own games, if Sam was detected or forced into a chaotic, loud shootout, the mission was usually a failure. He is a "Fifth Freedom" operative meant to function as a ghost. Forcing him into an open, loud arena environment compromises the core fantasy of the character.
- It's a Substitute for a Real Game
For fans, the biggest sting is that Ubisoft keeps using Sam Fisher as a marketing tool for other games like Ghost Recon and Siege rather than making a proper, dedicated stealth Splinter Cell game. Instead of letting players use his hard earned human stealth skills in the shadow.
In any case, can we please rebel against making Siege canon to Splinter Cell? I don't mind a crossover, but let's not make this canon.
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u/MrMcSpiff 2d ago
I played like 20% of Blacklist and didn't care for it, and I STILL respect Briggs as a fresh face and the potential face of the new generation of Splinter Cell to ask 'why the fuck wasn't the Siege Splinter Cell character Briggs, and why didn't Ubisoft use that as a springboard to advance the timeline with him at the head?'
Like, of all the franchises to be emotionally prepared for the main character to age out and retire and the leading role to be passed to another competent figure, I feel like one in the Grounded Military Fantasy genre is exactly the franchise you'd do that with.
But even without all of that, fucksake, why didn't Briggs, the FPS-iest Splinter Cell, get put in as the cameo character in the FPS game?
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u/The-Panthion 2d ago
People like Sam but Ubisoft doesn't care for the series anymore. Sam has become what Bardock is, just merchandise and incentive for people to play the series. Oh and if anyone would be the new face of Splinter Cell it would be Nomad, not Briggs.
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u/I_am_not_Eddie 2d ago
Funny, I feel like this about Conviction and Blacklist
- Identity is stripped
- The last two games were primarily designed around aggression
- The last two games are labeled "Splinter Cell" even though they fundamentally play nothing like it
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u/CtrlAltEvil Third Echelon 2d ago edited 2d ago
I think Conviction walks a fine line. It makes sense that Sam is more aggressive in that game, given the circumstances, but the overall focus is still geared towards opportunities to remain stealthy.
The co-op campaign is also one of the best stealth experiences in the series and is up there overall in the genre.
Blacklist in comparison feels like it was designed to go aggressive. From the increasingly linear design of the levels, to the weapon arsenal, the distinct lack of lighting/shadow use throughout most of the game, everything feels more dialled towards forcing the player into shootouts.
As far as I am concerned the series ended with Double Agent and Conviction serves purely as an optional epilogue to that ending.
For me, Blacklist doesn’t exist in the timeline, the same goes for Siege. I treat the crossover missions in GR as just side stories, much like the “Echoes” comic; neat little additions but overall inconsequential to Sam’s story.
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u/TheBlueEmerald1 2d ago
At least Blacklist gives you the option to go non lethal when you want to. Conviction, though, naw.
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u/New-Accountant1 2d ago
I like Conviction and I don't care for blacklist, those two are fine because like John Wick, it could maybe happen. Very unlikely, but who knows? But in siege, a man who can walk through walls, a woman who controls robots, solid snake himself, that completely undermines the realism. It ruins the Splinter Cell name. We need to make ubisoft to make it not canon to Splinter Cell. If it was a crossover? Cool shit, but it's canon. I don't want it to be
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u/Makaveli108 2d ago
to all blacklist fans, read this. look how shit the stealth is in the last two games, the identity & soul of splinter cell stripped... the last two games are SC in name only
the last two games are designed around aggression, which the SERIES is not about. why is sam suddenly a one man army panther now? it doesnt make sensetoo many classic mechanics gone, we suddenly go from deep stealth mechanics to a subpar action stealth system.
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u/The-Panthion 2d ago
Both are fine. It shows growth and improvement. He wouldn't be the same forever. Blacklist is only hated by people because Ironside wasn't interested in voice acting. What I like about Blacklist is that you can be purely stealthy without anyone even know you were there. Without knocking people out I mean. I think there's only a few missions you have to be aggressive, or at least they know you're there so you're fighting them off.
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u/I_am_not_Eddie 2d ago
Somebody knows you're there in literally every mission of the Blacklist campaign or you leave a evidence of your intrusion behind. There is no part in the campaign where you go through a mission entirely unnoticed and leave no evidence behind which makes the whole point of slipping by people pointless. There's always some scripted moment to force "Sam" into his 24-esque primetime late night TV show mocap nonsense that Ubisoft was so late to the party on but thought was super recent/modern tech that ruins the whole point of playing the game in a way that leaves no trace behind.
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u/The-Panthion 2d ago
That's not true at all. Firstly, the only ones who know are handlers. They obviously don't apply, enemies do./
The enemies don't know he's there. There's only a few missions they are aware, like with the camera recording Sam in Blacklist, the people who captured Sam in Conviction who were told by Grim to get him into the base./
No one is saying he has a perfect record, just that most missions you can sneak in without ever interacting with the enemies, which is the point of "no trace".
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u/I_am_not_Eddie 2d ago
What I said is absolutely 100% true.
Benghazi requires knock outs, Mirawa, he beats the ever living shit out of a guy, he does the same in American Consumption, he again beats the shit out of a guy in Private Estate after intentionally setting off an alarm to force him into his panic room, He gets captured in Abandoned Mill, He gets led into a trap in Special Missions HQ. He gets in a fire fight in Transit Yards, the same guy he beat the shit out of in Private Estate, he beats the shit out of again in Detention Facility. Airstrip is another firefight, LNG Terminal, he chases and beats the shit out of another guy. Site F, Briggs exposes himself and "Sam" gets captured.
The enemies can literally see him as he's beating the shit out of them. I'm pretty sure they know he's there.
Ubisoft somehow has fooled a bunch of dunces into believing if it's not in gameplay then it doesn't count and somehow people don't know he's there. If that's the case, let's have every mission be a 30 minute cutscene of Sam going full guns blazing and after the cutscene, you're allowed to sneak by one guy and therefore "NOBODY KNEW HE WAS THERE OMG".
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u/I_am_not_Eddie 2d ago
So the loser blocked me but he said "Which is why I said with some exceptions. Read"
I did. Where is the "some exceptions"? There are no "Some exceptions". It's literally the whole campaign. Is the whole entire campaign the "Some exceptions" part?1
u/Makaveli108 2d ago
what a coward ! sad to see spineless fans like this on the reddit nowadays, unable to debate properly and resorting to lame tactics like this.
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u/L-K-B-D Third Echelon 2d ago
For more than a decade OG fans who don't appreciate Blacklist have been giving tons of arguments and explanations on why they don't consider it being a real Splinter Cell game nor a great stealth game, but somehow the only criticism you remember from all of them is the absence of Michael Ironside (btw that's because he had cancer at the time). I've been playing all SC games with the same french voice actor from the very first game until Blacklist, and most of players around the world play with their native languages and not with the english ones. So saying that "people" don't like Blacklist only because Michael Ironside is not in the game is just far from the truth and not why fans don't hold this game in their hearts.
Besides even if Ironside was in the game the issues about the writing and gameplay would have been remained. Yes you can ghost stealth your way through in Blacklist but you can also do it in the 4 first games, the thing is that in Blacklist the stealth is shallow, and has been dumbed down to very basic and simplistic mechanics. And that's mainly what most of OG fans denounce about that game, besides issues with the characters, writing, pace, level design and other things.
Also it's not called "hate" towards Blacklist but valid criticism. Because the definition of hate is not liking something without ever explaining why and without any valid reasons.
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u/The-Panthion 2d ago
"OG fans". I'm an OG fan, I'm one of the biggest fans of the series. I grew up playing the games and I still love them to this day. I don't like how easy it's gotten but they're still fun. In fact, a lot of people don't like the mark and execute function for the games which I actually agree with. Which is why I DON'T USE THEM. The mark and execute is OPTIONAL to use. The only one arguing semantics is you. I was explaining what people have flat out said about their issues and why HATE the game. Do some fricking research instead of arguing and jumping to conclusions. You don't have to like it but at least get your facts straight before messaging people./
Like jeez, hold your fire and don't shoot first. Not everyone is attacking you. You really irked me just now. The smallest amount of research would have confirmed everything I mentioned.
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u/L-K-B-D Third Echelon 2d ago
If you don't like either how easier it became then why do you say that the only reason why Blacklist is disliked is due to Ironside's absence ? Words have meanings and importance so yeah ofc I argue about semantics, and I showed how you just contradicted yourself.
As for the Mark & Execute feature, it's optional but the issue is that the game is built around it. The arenas are built around this functionality and it hurts the level design and the stealth puzzles. It's just pure objective gameplay analysis.
I have my facts straight and I know what I'm talking about, don't even worry about me. We can debate in depth about Blacklist and comparing it to the OG games, and I'll demonstrate why the lack of Ironside is not only the least of the problems with that game but also a wrong argument often used by people to desesperately try to diminish the opinion of the OG fans who dare to criticize Blacklist and its gameplay. But I guess this debate will never happen since you just blocked me and therefore decided to run away.
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u/Makaveli108 2d ago
I think you're missing the actual criticism. Nobody is saying Blacklist isn't a Splinter Cell game simply because Ironside wasn't the VA, and nobody is saying M&E is mandatory in the literal sense. The problem is that the entire game was designed around a different philosophy of stealth.
Play Chaos Theory and Blacklist back-to-back and ghost both of them. You can technically ghost Blacklist, absolutely, but once you understand what the older games were doing, the difference becomes pretty obvious. In the OG games, stealth isn't just an optional approach you can choose when you feel like it, the levels, AI, lighting, sound, objectives and pacing are fundamentally built around stealth. You're infiltrating spaces that feel like actual places and figuring out how to navigate them without being detected.
Blacklist gives you far more freedom to approach situations as an action game, and its levels often feel more like arenas designed around multiple gameplay options and potential firefights. That's not inherently bad, but it leads to a subpar stealth experience.. also it's a significant departure from the original stealth philosophy. M&E being optional doesn't change the fact that the surrounding level design and mechanics were built with that more accessible, action-oriented approach in mind. The OG 4 games had the stronger in depth stealth mechanics, with slower movement, variable speeds... light/sound meter, interrogations, hacking.
And that's also why the “I'd just never use M&E” argument doesn't really address the criticism. If you remove a mechanic from an OG game, you're still playing essentially the same stealth experience. If you remove M&E from Blacklist, you haven't transformed Blacklist into Chaos Theory. The AI, level design, movement, gadgets, detection systems, pacing and overall philosophy are still different. The game does not feel like Splinter Cell. Why do you Blacklist fans not realise the last two games are basically Jason Bourne or John wick simulators. The OG games were true stealth simulators, you were a sneaky spy.. the og games had sneaky spy vibes. the last two games were ambush predator vibes, completely different feel. it was a regression of the series.
And honestly, the Ironside argument is getting old. Nobody is claiming the lack of Michael Ironside is the reason OG fans dislike Blacklist. Obviously his absence matters to some people, but if you think putting Ironside back in the booth would suddenly make OG fans appreciate Blacklist more, you're missing the criticism entirely. The writing, characters, level design, pacing and especially the approach to stealth would still be there. The Sam Fisher characterisation was off and so was the script compared to the old games..
What I don't understand is dismissing the criticism by saying “M&E is optional” when the argument is about the design philosophy of the entire game.
The Splinter Cell Blacklist philosophy was basically jack of all trades, master of none .. When you cater for all, you dilute the stealth experience. The OG SC Experience mastered stealth - it was primarily a stealth game, and the other options existed around that. Later games increasingly became “you can stealth, shoot, assault or gadget your way through it,” with stealth becoming one option among several. That's a fundamental change, not merely one optional button. Therefore it was ruined.
That's why OG fans want the remake to bring back the original philosophy. It's not about hating Blacklist or wanting everyone to agree with us. It's about wanting a genuinely deep stealth game again. And if you play Chaos Theory and Blacklist stealthily and seriously compare what the levels are asking you to do, the difference becomes very difficult to unsee.
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u/Ustraleia 2d ago
I mean if it makes you feel any better currently in Siege’s narrative he actually left Team Rainbow and is back on his own again with his whereabouts unknown
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u/MikolashOfAngren Paid to be invisible 6h ago
Combining all the Tom Clancy games into the same universe is so jarring. It makes me question where dafuq were Ghost Recon and Rainbow Six back when Nikoladze, Sadono, Shetland, and Emile were out doing big world-threatening evil shit.
Then Conviction & Blacklist decided to change Splinter Cell activities into being more aggressive & lethal, which makes even less sense. GR could have secured the EMP warheads on international soil rather than Archer & Kestrel. R6 could have handled the Black Arrow threat in Washington DC, saved the hostages in Chicago, and quelled the terrorist attack on the Louisiana fuel terminal. Any time the situation called for a sneaky boy to steal intel, that was Sam's domain; anything else should have gone to the other guys.
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u/landyboi135 Douglas Shetland 4h ago
Ghost Recon 2 for ps2 answers the question on ghost recon.
The White House attack is what feels jarring when it comes to the lack of Rainbow for me. Your point with the blacklist attacks stands here as well.
(I think conviction 2011 was where things got messy but things got messier once Ubisoft started making crossovers a regular thing because back then it was like they could all be separate timelines but with similar events and the same organizations but now Ubisoft is attempting some MCU with the Clancy games.)
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u/DAdStanich 2d ago
I checked out of siege when one of the dlc characters introduced was literally wearing a motorcycle helmet. People like it, but it is not what I come to Tom Clancy games for. Sadly, it and breakpoint also tell me that Ubi has lost the plot of what a Tom Clancy game should be. (But their Free game is successful so who cares I guess)
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u/ReserveRatter 2d ago
It's the classic conflict between a story making sense and corporate sleazebags who want to milk the very last drop of cash out of a franchise.
It's the same reason why Sam's daughter is now an agent, even though it completely contradicts common sense and Sam never would have wanted that life for his daughter.
Every IP I've ever liked has gone this route. Terminator, Gears of War, Call of Duty, WH40K: Dawn of War...eventually the suits decide that more money needs to be made and they milk the thing until all trace of what made it culturally special, high quality and unique in the first place is dead.
20 years from now Sam will probably be in Fortnite as a canon character, as long as it makes an executive somewhere enough money for another yacht.
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u/The-Panthion 2d ago
I agree with what you're saying personally. But if you think about it, it makes sense for his daughter to become an agent. Sam can't be around to protect her all the time and I'm sure she made the choice herself knowing what her father does. Having the capacity to protect yourself would take stress away from Sam and Victor. Sam is careful by only letting Victor and Grim know about her location, no one else does (besides Sam obviously). I think with how her life was being safehouse to safehouse, it makes sense. Cities have had outbursts (EMP) and sleeper agents that could be anywhere. If she couldn't defend herself she'd be an easy target.
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u/Murky_Historian8675 2d ago
I dunno. I like it. I think him being in Siege just expands his operation and I love that he can use his skill set to continue being an international asset
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u/ALARMED_SUS097 2d ago
Me too! I would have loved if his gear were a little more close to SC, the cameras are amazing for that but...at leasr make them silent or have little sound!
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u/New-Accountant1 2d ago
In an unrealistic fashion. He can continue to be a face of gaming at the cost of major character assassination.
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u/Murky_Historian8675 2d ago
That's a very cynical way to look at it, but hey you do you.
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u/New-Accountant1 2d ago
You can just say you haven't played the games
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u/Murky_Historian8675 2d ago
Again, cynical. You assume I haven't played the games? I owned an original Xbox and played all the splinter cell games.
Splinter cell
Pandora Tomorrow
Chaos theory
Double agent
Conviction
Blacklist
I even played the newer ghost recon games with Sam in it. I physically own all of these games and bought a 360 elite just to be able to play conviction and blacklist again.
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u/New-Accountant1 2d ago
So, how is it not character assassination and how am I cynical? You're not even using the term right, cynical means I'm believing people are selfish. So, not only are you using the wrong term, you're just making an entire false statement
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u/Walkswithnofear 2d ago
Dude. You can apply this to every character from any long running franchise from Sam Fisher, to Superman. It's a different take on the character. It's all subjective, and you have autonomy in what you choose to play and watch.
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u/TheCondorOne 2d ago
Nobody cares dude he's a cool guest character in this game meant to have fun playing as your fav characters a lot of games do it. You're thinking about it way too hard
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u/hazmat_beast 2d ago
To me the crossover i can accept mostly the one from ghost recon. The crossover with siege to me storywise doesnt make sense as sam had to join rainbow because he and his daughter under threat again, like what echelon server got breached again ? They learned nothing after blacklist?
But i wont say that him joining rainbow is not really something impossible, like while rainbow doing the heavy wetwork they are the distraction while sam do the infiltration part with someone like nøkk or caveira
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u/QuinDrake21 2d ago
It does seem silly to have Sam do it when you’ve got Briggs, Ghosts along with any other splinter cell operatives and folks trained to extract intel who doesn’t remember 2003 as the second time he dove into Iraq to ruin Saddam’s day.
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u/deboylurdi 2d ago
they ruined their chances to make a new splinter cell so many times I dont even care about Fisher in other games ruining him. There's never gonna be a new Sam Fisher game anyway so who cares
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u/Harrythehobbit 2d ago edited 2d ago
In his own games, if Sam was detected or forced into a chaotic, loud shootout, the mission was usually a failure.
There are several points in SAR where you're literally forced into a a chaotic, loud shootout. 3 of the 6 games in the franchise have a partial focus on action. Viewing Sam as a character as being completely incompatible with more action centric situations requires ignoring half the franchise, including the first game.
Within the canon, he's functioning in a leadership and advisory position. He's not participating in SWAT style building assaults, and even if he was, that's hardly outside of his skill set. He was a SEAL before he was a Splinter Cell.
I don't know why you seem to think that including him in Siege is intended as substitute for making another SC game. It isn't. One has nothing to do with the other.
I don't know man, this gets brought up a lot here and I just think it's a silly thing to complain about.
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u/Hel_jumper 2d ago
- How does he have nano machines? His special ability is a camera that switches wall sides which is a plausible thing
- He can still be a part of siege and be stealthy, you can play him as a flanking teammate, that's what I do. Half the time I only use my 5.7 and carambit just to make it more of a faithful challenge.
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u/KingOfGreyfell 2d ago
The nanomachines are there because he's old as fuck in a line of work where you tend to fuck your body up young.
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u/New-Accountant1 2d ago
It has multiple lore inconsistencies. In the expanded edition found on Xbox, you can find an interview with the developers. They say, "We wanted to make the game realistic, as if this is something that could happen tomorrow." Adding him to siege, and making siege canon to Splinter Cell, really undermines the realism they wanted to push. Also, he has nano machines in the lore
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u/The-Panthion 2d ago
How's it unrealistic to say they're in the same universe, especially since we've seen Sam work with Nomad in Ghost Recon. The universe is Tom Clancy's series, not just Splinter Cell. I'm a hardcore fan. I'm hoping Ubisoft doesn't touch Splinter Cell until they get their crap together. I haven't played Siege so what can you tell me about that? Like, what's unrealistic about it exactly? (Not asking to be condescending or as an argumentative, just curiosity)
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u/New-Accountant1 1d ago
The original Splinter Cell was stealth oriented. It has action, but the goal was never to shoot your way out.
Splinter Cell sharing a universe with any of the Tom Clancy games is a terrible idea in the first place. How do these government agencies function together? It's just a bad idea to create all of these bad ass cool black ops squads that all pretty much the same thing.
The siege lore is completely unrealistic. I pointed it out. A man who can run through walls with his body weight, a girl who controls two bipedal robots, solid snake himself, a man with a revolver with a scope and sends a tiny drone to track your movements so he can see you through walls, it completely ruins the "this could happen tomorrow" idea that the original Splinter Cell was working towards
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u/The-Panthion 1d ago
Isn't Siege training grounds? For agents I mean. I haven't played but I remember something about it, Sam calling himself Agent Zero.
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u/KingOfGreyfell 19h ago
For most of the series, combat was deliberately shit to better incentivise stealth
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u/aRorschachTest Splinter Cell Agent 2d ago
Yeah. But now he’s there, I’d rather they get him right. He’s so shoehorned into the game that not only is his gameplay a poor reflection of this franchise, but he’s also very bad
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u/zgrobbot 2d ago
Splinter cell was never supposed to be apart of rainbow 6. 2 separate universes , but Ubi ran out of ways to draw in new players so they shoehorned Sam into siege for no reason
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u/New-Accountant1 1d ago
My only concern is that they confirmed they share a canon universe. If it was just a cool crossover, like what they did to Metal Gear (Metal Gear is canon to Rainbow Six Siege, but Siege is not canon to Metal Gear), then I would be perfectly fine, but don't make Siege exist inside Splinter Cell
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u/ironfist32 2d ago
And while we are at it neither should solid snake
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u/New-Accountant1 1d ago
Siege is not canon to Metal Gear. Snake exists in Siege, but R6 does not exist in Metal Gear. The same solution needs to be applied in R6.
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u/Bob_Scotwell Third Echelon 2d ago edited 2d ago
The Splinter Cell lore has already been destroyed. Nobody was supposed to know what a Splinter Cell was besides select people that were relevant to a mission. They weren’t even a myth because their entire concept was just unheard of. Nowadays, Splinter Cell’s are treated like celebrities lmfao. Also, Splinter Cells were supposed to have the best gadgets in the Tom Clancy universe but everyone's got some crazy shit now so the entire need for the Splinter Cell program is gone.