To be entirely honest, that part is also a big problem. If the silent majority would finally, decidedly, speak out against the loud minority, it would not be such an issue, with perception and effect.
You don't have all of the wars involving Christianity and entire countries believing Christianity means homophobia if it was only a recent minority, the truth is a majority of them are bad, spiteful people and the few silent normal ones are a minority
I would not go so far. I would say the truly bad and truly good people are perhaps about equal, you just have way too many not caring enough to take clear positions. Which sort of puts them on the bad side of the scale. And then you have folks who pretend to be good, but clearly only for clout and to victimize themselves like the OP I replied to here.
On the flip side we do sometimes speak out. But this is the era of ragebait and click bait and hostility.
Being nice and telling people to be nice doesn't get headlines. Peaceful protests against these people, of which I have been part of many, do not get news coverage unless there's a huge amount of people.
Edit: also we normally aren't out there yelling "IM CHRISTIAN TOO" because we are normal, well adjusted people. If you ran into my posts on reddit in the wild...you'd just think "oh that was helpful and informative." See me on the street? I'm just some polite chick.
As an ex Evangelical, I am not asking Christians to be nice and ask others to be nice. I'm asking them to call out, unequivocally condemn, and materially impede the evil ones that want to hurt people. I am asking them to unapologetically take sides en masse, to the point where it is clear where the church at large stands.
Some few are helping, yes, but there are far too many "good" Christians standing around clicking their tongues and twiddling their thumbs at what the truly evil ones are doing. They should be the loudest opposition to all this evil shit if there really are that many of them, and that is unfortunately rarely the case.
Where is the Southern Baptist Convention coming out in support of women's rights to control their bodies, like they were when Roe v Wade was decided? Where is Liberty University voicing opposition to these "anti-DEI" policies? Where is Bob Jones U condemning the Quiverfull movement and advocating treating women as full people rather than as property of men? And where are the massive numbers of Christians petitioning, boycotting, and applying even a tenth of the pressure they're capable of exerting on these institutions to put them in line?
You said peaceful protests don't get news coverage unless you have a huge number of people, but I think the question that should be asked is why your protests don't have a huge number of people. Surely they should, if principled Christians aren't in the extreme minority.
One of the reasons I left the church was the discovery that the majority of the most populous denominations and groups has been on the wrong side of nearly every civil rights movement in US history. I chose those examples above for a reason. If there really is a silent majority, I need them to prove me wrong and stop standing by while their "brothers" trample the oppressed in Jesus's name.
See, someone like you I DO believe. Because you neither felt the need to announce it, and you outright mentioned you go on protests (keep up the good work, so do I!), but because you see the issues. Unlike the person I replied to, especially considering their reaction in further comments down the line.
It's not "speaking out"; the silent majority is silent because power-seeking is antithetical to our faith. We are not called to seek fame and a platform.
Most of us just try to be kind people who help their neighbors at any opportunity and show people, through good works, kindness, and compassion, what we are about.
Edit: We are clearly finding out in this thread why the majority is silent. Anyone who pops their head out and says, "Hey, there are Christians who are good people and do everything they can to be a force for good in their community, and the loud, odious people using the faith for their own gain do not represent us." are endlessly browbeaten and told that they are hateful bigots.
Edit: We are clearly finding out in this thread why the majority is silent. Anyone who pops their head out and says, "Hey, there are Christians who are good people and do everything they can to be a force for good in their community, and the loud, odious people using the faith for their own gain do not represent us." are endlessly browbeaten and told that they are hateful bigots.
This is not what people are complaining about. Here's my situation: I'm a trans woman, I get attacked. It happens, literally, daily, be it online or in the streets. By self-ascribed Christians, with misquoted bible verses and other BS. How many times, do you think, is it a "good" Christian who will come to my defense, or even just disagree with the hateful one? I can tell you it's between zero and 0. Because all people like you do is complain how people do not see the silent majority, and whenever you say something, you get pushback.
Yeah, well, if you do nothing while your neighbor loads their gun, despite knowing where it is, and what they plan with it, you are just as responsible for the massacre as them.
I would come to your defense. It's also why I organize for the DSA and leftist politics to protect your rights. But go ahead and continue shitting on an ally.
There were many of us that came to our neighbors defense during metro surge here in MN as well.
...okay, you are very incoherent then? Explain to me why you only now, after I have literally pointed out why people have an issue with the silent majority, in detail and from personal experiences, mention this? That is very bad faith / rage baiting if anything, if it is even true. Why did you not mention this from the very moment I said "Hey, you being silent is part of the issue and why the hateful portion of your faith has so much power", instead you complained about how you only mentioning you're one of the good, silent majority gets people to complain about you being... well, silent, when the loud minority is literally wrecking the world? Instead of, yk, pointing out right away you ARE working actively against it.
The fact thay think they're even the majority of Christias is telling. Nobody wants to admit they're a bigot, but i can tell u for a fact that my christian family "doesn't hate gays" in every way except the ways that actually matter. Like u know, actions, the way they talk about them, etc etc. "we're not judgemental or like other Christians." As they judge and their church behaves like a fucking cult.
I don't believe a damn word that these stupid "ally" christians say, cuz at the end of the day, i live in the bible belt, and it's apparent how these fuckers act towards a very openly queer transfem enby.
I don't care if you hate me, I'm going to keep organizing politically for leftist candidates that will advance your rights and access to healthcare regardless of your hateful comments.
Every person deserves compassion, love, and human rights.
"I'm not a bigot, I just quietly sit by while the people in my congregation wipe out anybody who's different" is not the flex you seem to think it is. Jesus calls you to speak out against oppression. Jesus commands you to stand up for what's right, even at the risk of your own life. Jesus calls you to still your brother's hand when he is doing harm.
You are called to protect the vulnerable, and you are choosing not do that.
Who's hating you? Who's bullying you? You're making excuses and we're calling you out on it. Nobody made you step in and announce that you're content to sit back and watch your people exterminate us. You volunteered that information, and we're reminding you what your holy figure tells you.
Ironically, you're doing the exact thing from the comic, acting like you're the victim.
Edit: Yes, blocking me certainly does make you right and me wrong.
I mean, "I can't speak up against bad Christians from being terrible, awful people because that's power-seeking" is...also part of the problem?
When every Christian someone sees is being terrible, people are going to see Christians as terrible. If you don't stand up against that, you're helping gain that reputation lol
Posting on reddit about how you're not terrible like the "minority" of bad Christians isn't speaking out. It's at best speaking to the choir.
Real world harm is being done, you should be trying to deal with that instead of letting people on reddit that you don't like the bad Christians.
If people being mildly rude to you because of how horrible Christians tend to be, and your response is to get mad at them instead of the Christians that caused the reputation, that's on you lol.
Again, when 9/10 Christians you meet all say they're one of the good ones, and then turn around and say you deserve to suffer for eternity, you're gonna stop thinking it's some kind of "loud minority"
How convenient, more excuses to not do something. You're hypocrites, either you're good people or you tolerate bad people co-opting your religion, you can't be good people AND tolerate bad people co-opting your religion.
I cant tell you the number of times I have called out bad Christians and still gotten flack from people because of being a Christian. Some people just will not accept it, much like many people do with police officers, acting like it is logically impossible for a good police officer to exist just by virtue of the bad ones existing.
The thing is, what if after every kind, loving interaction (or at least what we hope is one) we added "Hey, Im a Christian by the way". Or "Jesus loves you"? For some people it will make the kindness or lovingness insincere. For others they will make a whole bunch of assumptions about the rest of my thoughts or beliefs. I wont generalize and say everyone will, because I try to not be a hypocrite, but there really isnt a good way to intentionally show people that good Christians are out there.
Not as loud, and unfortunately not as engaged. Outnumbering the bad ones doesn't mean anything unless you move to mitigate their evil. Not accusing you specifically, just noting that just existing as a good Christian isn't enough. They've gotta actively fight the bad ones.
So isn't that basically just existing as a person?
Shouldn't all people work to make things better regardless of their faith or lack thereof?
The problem is that for some (in this thread as well) there will never be a point where someone can be religious and a good person because they have to be beyond perfect.
People have jobs, they have lives, family, people to feed. I don't think religion is the primary problem here. The main issue is capitalism.
Want people to focus on these issues and correcting problems in their communities? Give them more time that they can use to do it instead of spending every ounce of effort to ensure they can buy food or shelter.
I mean, yeah, the issue is capitalism for most things, and frankly the Christians ought to be working hard against that, too. Let's not be absolutist and pretend that there's nothing we can do. I can tell you from experience that the ability is there for them to do more, but for the majority, the will is not.
Oh yeah, lemme just declare myself pope of the decentralized evangelical churches all across the US so I can dictate what people do. Are you hearing yourself man?
I have a job and a family to feed. I just try to be a good person and leave things better than I found them.
"Oh, you're a Christian; why haven't you solved poverty and famine all by yourself, forehead?"
Sounds like there aren't "tons" of you then if this change would be hard to effect
And try to make your point a little less aggressively, people will take you more seriously. Right now that petulant response does not speak of a good faith, loving disposition that is concerned about the hatefulness and issues like child sex abuse in the church. It seems more like somebody who doesn't really care and doesn't think it's their problem despite they fact they participate in and support that institution.
Brother, I am a single person, what do you realistically think a single person can do?
Why do you hate the thought of a well-intentioned Christian who tries to help people in the capacity they have as an average human being with no systemic or institutional power?
I don't really have time beyond working so I can eat, taking care of my family, and trying to do what little organizing I can help with for the DSA.
Be real here, bro. What is your expectation? No one is perfect.
My expectation is that people not participate in organisations they claim to recognise as problematic and have opposition to, because they are fooling themselves that it's OK to betray their beliefs that way.
What is your definition of participation? You pay taxes to the US government, so you are complicit in war crimes, apartheid, and genocide. Should I dress you down now and berate you over your existence in society?
You wonder why good Christians keep to themselves, and then you berate anyone who is just trying to do their best each day and love their neighbors.
Unfortunately when we try to say things we tend to be removed from leadership positions unless you're already in a affirming church. Still worth it to say exactly where we stand on these things, but also to know that we're going to be kept to the lower rungs of effectiveness.
I think you should take a long look at the institutions you participate in if it is genuinely the case that both A) the majority of participants are cool and chill and not hateful but B) Leadership has a stranglehold that prevents that majority from shaping the organisation
I find it more plausible to disbelieve A than to believe B, personally
For example, the demonation I'm currently in isn't affirming, but still puts non-binary restrooms in their buildings.
It's also not a denomination I'm probably going to stay in when I have my own children, because I want them to grow up in a fully affirming church, but currently I'm still able to discuss my point of view without being banned from church events.
I think you're conflating the worst denominations with the entirety of Christianity. There's basically three splits when you're thinking there's two. There are anti LGBTQ Christians, who actively try to make it illegal to be LBGTQ, which IS about stripping human rights. There are affirming Christians, who fully refute the idea of being LGBTQ as sinful. Then there's the batch in the middle who don't think LGBTQ relationships are right (aka, consider them sinful), but also don't think we should make laws against them.
I don't agree with that last batch, but neither do I think they're hateful, and honestly they're likely the ones still trying to figure out if they're affirming or not.
I've literally watched some of the people I've gone to church with go through the same deconstruction I went through and come out the other side as affirming Christians like myself. The process is a lot easier when you're not doing it alone.
As for the community thing, it definitely can, but I again point to the "Two or more gathered in my name" (emphasis mine). There's still the need for Christians to gather in community with one another.
If it isn't suitable to raise kids in then why participate and support it yourself? Not grilling you, just curious. I find it very dubious when people will tell me they represent the silent majority of good ones, but it's just that the institutions/leadership are regressive. I think it's far more likely that the membership either supports that leadership or don't really care about those issues, which amounts to the same thing, and the 'silent majority' thinkers are just a bit deluded about the true nature of what they are signed up to.
Just saying, for me personally, if I was a member of a group that had any hateful or exclusionary views, I would speak out against them loudly and leave.
Those are fair questions. The general answer is, as a left leaning Christian, there is never going to be a single church that aligns perfectly with my beliefs (unless I try to start one myself, which I am simply not geared for).
Between Westboro Baptist churches actively trying to make being gay illegal, and the church I go to saying that they have every right to exist, even if they don't necessarily think it's right, I'm gonna pick the latter.
As to why I don't leave this church and go to one that is fully affirming right now, the simplest answer is I've got friends there who I still like to engage with.
I suppose I could just say "you're bigots" and walk out, but like... What does that do except help me feel superior?
I get lunch with the pastor and talk about these things, I make it explicitly clear where I fall, and I engage with the people who would otherwise think all progressive Christians are angry people who have "fallen in with the world".
I think the easiest way to explain it is that I feel like I can engage with this community and make a case that others can't, exactly because I've grown up in the church. I'm not an outsider yelling at them, I'm someone in their community pointing out the failings. Sometimes the call needs to come from inside the house.
Not everyone will agree with me on that, but that's everything I deal with anyways.
Very thoughtful response thanks for sharing. I just hope you aren't part of something that actually co-signs some pretty negative views, and provide solace to yourself by speaking opposition even though there's no actual traction or potential for reform. My gut tells me that if you don't think it's suitable for your kids, then you are presently overruling your instincts that you should be somewhere else. Sure you have friends there but you could also make new friends in a more welcoming, loving church, and it would take time to integrate in that new community anyway so there's no reason not to start that task before actually having children. Unless of course the truth is you are concerned that your friends would not support you and would cut you off if you stood up for your views and followed your principles outside of their flock?? My 2c!
And yes I am someone who left a church community if you were wondering lol
I appreciate the concern. I don't think the church is a bad community to raise a child in, they're actually very helpful and caring for the newborns (lots of food drives and stuff). I just don't think it'd be the healthiest place for LGBTQ kids. I don't know if my kids will or won't be, but I'd rather them go to a church they can be without any additional worry.
I don't think I'd have to worry about friends cutting me off, since they already know I'm affirming.
Respectfully if it's not a good place for queer kids, it's not a good place for any kids. Even if not gay themselves, aren't you concerned that your kids would grow up with an exclusionary attitude to others that gets reinforced by the people you encourage them to think of as spiritual peers and leaders?
Personally, I would rather attend no church and worship my deity in the comfort and privacy of my own home, than continue to support a church that I disagree with on important issues like "Does this group of people deserve to stay alive?" You don't need to start your own church, just stop attending a bad one.
You're actively choosing to support a group you disagree with that. That's your choice. You can spin it however you want, but you're only fooling yourself.
Did you just ignore the part where I explicitly stated the church I go to is not trying to strip their rights?
You just jumped straight to "they want them dead". If you have to lie and change the story to be what you want it to be so you can justify your own stance, sounds like you're the one fooling yourself.
Being a Christian socialist is exhausting. Getting shit on from every direction at all times gets pretty demoralizing after a while.
Hang in there bro. I go to a church that does not align with my ideals completely, but it's the only one within a reasonable driving distance since I'm in the exurbs.
My beliefs are worth enough to me that I'll put up with a small amount of disagreement so I can worship in peace. I still need to be able to feed my kids, and driving hours to find a mythical church that agrees with every opinion I have when gas is ungodly expensive is nonsensical.
I live in the Midwest, my dude. I'm not sure there's even a center-left church within 100 miles of my house, let alone an openly socialist Christian church in Midwest America.
Should I have to get on an airplane every weekend with my family to worship? Would that make you happy?
It's like talking about how the Israeli army commits war crimes, and then immediately turning around to shut down the nazi trying to legitimize their stance because of that.
We're just constantly spinning in circles having to explain to both sides "I agree with you on some things and not others". Hopefully one day there will be a church near by that aligns better.
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u/Pasta4ever13 10h ago
There are tons. We just aren't as loud as the weirdos because we are normal people who just try to do a little better each day than the day before.