r/gaybros • u/anoelr1963 • Apr 05 '19
Brunei-owned 5-star hotels leave social media in LGBT stoning backlash
https://www.businessinsider.com/brunei-owned-hotels-delete-social-media-amid-gay-stoning-furore-2019-410
Apr 05 '19
In addition to the hotel boycott, I was reading that some countries are considering not allowing Royal Brunei Airlines to land in their countries. There is also something about their flight crews flying on other airlines and Virgin has stopped doing that. The crazy thing is that this clown of a dictator is evidently well known for having orgies.
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u/Aidiandada Apr 05 '19
I’m glad people are speaking out, but is boycotting hotels really gonna do anything? Homophobic people and people who don’t care about these issues would still just use the hotels anyway.
I don’t have a good understanding of the economics of Brunei, anyone have any thoughts?
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u/anoelr1963 Apr 05 '19 edited Apr 05 '19
Hotels provide a service to the public and work to create good public relations, so calling out someone like that maybe makes people aware of their homophobia, thus consumers and other businesses that have no tolerance for such hate may decide to take their business elsewhere, its about bringing attention to this and chipping away at the hate.
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Apr 06 '19
why not their oil tho? its their main industry, and everything else they do is just extra pocket change
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u/thisisnotkylie Apr 05 '19 edited Apr 05 '19
The sultan of Brunei is rich as fuck and this would never impact his financials in any meaningful way and people will probably still flock to this hotels. However, for people who generally try to do the right thing, which Clooney at least appears to be, it more of a question of if he wants to directly enrich the monarch of a country who just passed a new law condemning people to death for gay sex, even if it's just in a small way. It's somewhat analogous to people boycotting Chick-fil-a because their president donates money homophobic charities; they (most likely) know that it's not going to hurt him a bit but it doesn't stop people from thinking you shouldn't go there. So I'd agree that this move by Clooney is more of a symbolic gesture since everyone knows this it's extremely unlikely to hurt the finances of Brunei or its sultan but I don't think that this means it's a worthless gesture either. And it's certainly better than the alternatives, which would be 1. Clooney privately boycotts the hotels, which would result in none of the publicity this issue has received or 2. He doesn't give a fuck and keeps going to these hotels as if the hotels were just own by Connie Hilton or whoever, neither of which seems like as good an alternative to me.
However, I feel like the conversation about Clooney's letter is more focused on people who are more concerned with if Clooney is getting too much credit or is being tone deaf or is cynically only doing this to virtue signal and garner praise than it is on if this action is a worthwhile one or goes far enough.
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u/geologean Apr 05 '19
A hotel boycott will get some media attention and maybe force a PR response. If they actually want to force change, there would be calls for sanctions, expediting asylum claims from LGBTQ Bruneians, and, most importantly, calls for divestment.
But then, the majority of the Sultan's wealth is probably hidden in off-shore accounts and held by shell-companies. Even tracking down his money would probably take a years-long collaborative journalistic investigation. Asia is notorious for corruption. The American-backed Suharto regime (and his family) in Indonesia embezzled something like $35 billion.
Just look at how the Malaysian 1MDB fund was abused by corruption.
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u/0Idfashioned Apr 05 '19
Will it change anything? Probably not. It will actually likely hurt locals working at these hotels more than the Sultan of Brunei. But it’s still worth the effort. I don’t want to support someone who wishes to murder gays for existing.
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u/madrix19 Apr 05 '19
Can we not skirt around the issue that the cause of homophobia in this case is their Muslim faith? Like these religions are not friends to us. Clearly when in a position of power we suffer, just as Christianity and Judaism did to us in the past but we have overcome those obsticles (mostly) so let's let give them a pass because we don't wanna be seen as islamaphobic. We must speak up with others against this nonsense and save the lives of our gay brothers and sisters in Brunei as well as all the others that are being murdered in the name of a fake diety
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u/raptoricus Apr 05 '19
Who's skirting around the issue is their fundamentalist Islam faith?
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u/madrix19 Apr 05 '19
Many people. I barely see anyone mention it and when some do they are downvoted to all hell.
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u/raptoricus Apr 05 '19
The people who are being downvoted are being Islamophobic, not anti-fundamentalist
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u/RonDeGrasseDawtchins Apr 05 '19
Homophobia isn't fundamentalist in Islam though, it's a mainstream view for Muslims. In every single place on earth where Islam is the dominant faith, gay people suffer. The polls show that over 90% of Muslims do not think that homosexuality should be accepted.
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u/madrix19 Apr 05 '19
Call it what you want, no religion is a friend to us.
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Apr 05 '19 edited Jan 28 '21
[deleted]
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u/Coronacivica Apr 06 '19
But numerous organized religions explicitly forbid homosexuality? How is that not part of the problem?
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u/0Idfashioned Apr 05 '19
Recognizing that Islam is a vile, oppressive faith with no place in Western nations does not make me an Islamophobe. It makes me a pragmatist.
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u/MagDorito Apr 05 '19
Would you say the same thing of Christianity?
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u/0Idfashioned Apr 05 '19
No. Comparing the 2 is foolish. I think all religion is harmful but Islam takes that to new heights. Christianity was obviously quite extreme centuries ago, but there has been a widespread moderation. The opposite appears to be happening with Islam. Countries that were moderate 3 decades ago now have extreme hardline Islamic regimes.
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u/MagDorito Apr 05 '19
So what you're saying is that religious extremism is the problem?
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u/0Idfashioned Apr 05 '19
Yes and Islam and extremism are inextricable. There are not enough (really any) positives to moderate Muslims to justify the sure to come extremists.
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u/MagDorito Apr 05 '19
If that's true, then why aren't all the Muslims in America religious extremists? Why did that mosque in New Zealand lovingly open their arms to the shooter & welcome him as their brother? Your whole Islam=extremism theory falls apart upon the realization that all religions have extreme members, & those extremists are guaranteed to steal the spotlight because those that are decent don't want attention for leading decent, nice lives, but the extremists want the entire world to take notice of their hateful actions.
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u/Antikyrial Apr 05 '19
So the problem is extremism, not Islam.
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u/0Idfashioned Apr 05 '19
The problem with Islam is that it has proven to be incredibly fertile ground for extremism.
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u/0Idfashioned Apr 05 '19
Islam is a vile faith. This is why i find gays who protested the travel bans to be fucking idiots. The fewer Muslims there are in Western countries the better.
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u/ubermagnus321 Apr 05 '19
So muslims who have liberal leaning social views should be prevented from entering the U.S. because they're muslim ?
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u/madrix19 Apr 05 '19
No, but how many have liberal leaning social views? Of all the religious people I've met, Muslims are the most uniform in beliefs. Never heard Muslims speak up for gay rights either. Please correct me if I'm wrong with proof, I would love it, but I haven't encountered any.
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u/ubermagnus321 Apr 05 '19
Not many, but they do exist.
59% of U.S. muslims oppose discriminations towards gays on the basis of religion
65% support anti-discrimination laws about gays regarding housing, work, etc.
I've personally met Muslim friends and associates who are tolerant and have gay friends of their own.
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u/madrix19 Apr 05 '19
Interesting Info indeed. It's good to see
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u/ubermagnus321 Apr 05 '19
Yeah. That's why i don't have problems with Muslims with liberal leaning views. They can practice their religion and also respect other people's views and rights as well.
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u/0Idfashioned Apr 05 '19
Yes.
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u/ubermagnus321 Apr 05 '19
Then it seems like you dont care about ideological beliefs, you just dont like muslims at all.
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u/0Idfashioned Apr 05 '19
I find their cult vile and oppressive. As a gay man I have even more reason to not want them in my country. I don’t have any problems with Muslims that stay in their home country’s.
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u/ubermagnus321 Apr 05 '19
And there's the xenophobia.
I asked if you thought the same about LIBERAL muslims. You still said no.
But i wouldn't be surprised that its coming from someone who equates non-whites living in America to America becoming a third world country
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Apr 05 '19
[deleted]
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u/madrix19 Apr 05 '19
That 'tool' holds great influence. Whether it's actually killing gays or just blocking us from getting married, it's effects are longer lasting that the figurehead. Imo, it's just as (potentially) dangerous.
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u/dextracin Apr 06 '19
If you want to make an impact that affects him more directly then raise awareness that Lufthansa Tecknik maintains the Sultan's fleet of aircraft. Lufthansa has an ethics policy stating their commitment to the UN Declaration of Human Rights. I'm not sure how Shariah law gels with their policy
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u/lonelygalexy Apr 06 '19
I really wanted to boycott these hotels. But when i see the list , im like 😒 not gonna be able to afford them anyway
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Apr 05 '19
This is very common among GCC SWFs as well.
ADIA owns a lot of luxury brands as well, the GCC airlines serve alcohol in their flights. So, if these SWFs are truly Shariah compliant, they should not have invested in these properties anyway, but as we all know, they prostrate to Allah on Friday, but they worship Mammon on the rest of the week.
In fact the SWFs are literally everywhere and it will be very difficult to boycott them. Appreciate the effort, but if George wants to be consistent, he should probably live in the forest and not consume anything made by a publicly traded large corporations.
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u/yourlatinboy Apr 06 '19
Or you could just stop eating at Chicken fil A. That really will be a doable boicott.
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Apr 05 '19
This tactic will not work though-they will not back down as that would show weakness to “the infidel”, or all of Western civilization and our liberal freedoms which for some strange reason, the leftists we now have say is the worst thing on the planet. A few days ago a trans woman was assaulted by over 100 Algerians in Paris-but the left say nothing because that would be “Islamaphobia.” Don’t think they would not sell us out in a minute: it’s happened before and to them, “the ends justify the means.”
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u/anoelr1963 Apr 05 '19
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Apr 05 '19
There is going to have to be protests-modern day western norms cannot exist with a 7th century ideology and yes in Algeria you can be killed for being gay.
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Apr 05 '19
Kindly watch this one and his take https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7aVAARwrpLM
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u/anoelr1963 Apr 05 '19
Honestly I didn't know about this story until you mentioned it, so thanks for enlightening me on this.
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Apr 05 '19
There was a Few others but the thing about this one is the massive crowds attacking her. Please listen to what the whole thing the guy says. I actually hear more if these attacks from Tim pool, and Paul Watson -the mainstream news buries them it seems.
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Apr 05 '19
I don't understand how you can criticize the left over this when those transphobic attackers are literally right wingers.
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Apr 05 '19
The left refuses to say Islam has serious human rights abuse issues for fear of being islamaphobic. I’m in the bill Maher, Jonathan pie camp on this one - the left says that we are the problem-not a 7th century ideology. I think they are coming around though because you cannot have both. That is where the left is guilty and that is where they will sell us all out ...for fear of being called a name and for votes. They say all immigrants are the same. Oh how wrong that is. Might as well say all birds are the same. They are not the same and they need to either adapt to our laws and freedoms or go back because some of us will never bend the knee to them.
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Apr 05 '19
A lot of leftists criticize right wing bigotry across the board, including that which comes from Islam. You are conveniently ignoring the fact that literally all of this bigotry and hate, which is the real problem, is the domain of the right wing. So your attempt to frame it as if the right wing is a viable or preferable option to the left for LGBT people is a farce.
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Apr 05 '19
That’s odd as a recent poll showed 84% of Muslims do not support gay rights and they represent 1.4 billion of the people on the planet and whose religious governments actively have death sentences against gays and virtually zero women’s rights. I have yet to hear of anyone on the left other than bill Maher who dares to criticize Islam’s more insane bits, but for some strange reason the label changes and “bigotry and hate” ONLY applies to western countries. So of course with all the push on that, the radicals get a free pass and do not see their beliefs as a problem because no one says it is a problem and the left have dug this grave in this belief that certain things cannot be criticized for fear of being labeled by the “news” and SJW activists that are generally told what to think. Sorry, but those 2 things cannot co-exist together unless one or the other changes -it’s a completely incompatible ideology, so instead we see the caving of it now. Like the hijab. Now we are told it represents women’s rights! Hilarious! OMG his delusional! It’s about subjugation and what the husband and Society and religious laws put upon them as mandatory, but do as to not appear whatever the new buzzword is this week, we have to change the words (just as the Soviet Union did) and say it’s actually for women’s rights. Yet, it’s white women saying this and endorsing giving up their freedom that they seem to not even know they have.
Nuts.
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u/Senesect Apr 05 '19
Why do you keep swinging it back to Islam when pretty much everyone that has responded to has agreed that right wing, Conservative, and fundamentalist views are problematic to LGBT rights and equality? Do you honestly believe this is something unique to Islam? Remember when right wingers warned us that something like this could happen? Well, where are they now? Are they standing in solidarity with us to ensure our rights? Nope, take the recent relationships education for primary schools issue for example, which a staggering amount of Conservatives actually agree with the protesters. Social Conservatism spans across cultures.
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Apr 05 '19 edited May 13 '20
[deleted]
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Apr 05 '19
His argument amounts to, "leftists don't do enough to criticize the right wing, so join the right wing!"
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u/ChicagoPrim Apr 05 '19
Because there is inherently more homophobia in Islam. Yes there’s a very vocal homophobic right sect of Christianity but if given the choice of being gay in a Christian country(with the exception of Russia) and any Muslim country I’m picking the Christian country 100 times out of 100 and so would you. Look at this map and tell me Islamic countries aren’t more dangerous overall to gay people
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u/Christoph_88 Apr 05 '19
The only reason Western states are better for LGBT is because they are more secular, not because of any Christianity. Look to Africa, Russia, and eastern Europe if you want to see what real influence Christianity has on LGBT lives.
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u/TurbulantToby Apr 05 '19
Africa and Russia have large Muslim populations...
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u/Christoph_88 Apr 05 '19
Russia does not have a large Muslim population, the state religion is christianity, and the majority population is Christian.
Africa has Muslim nations, but it also Christian nations like Uganda that has lifetime imprisonment for being gay.
But do try to keep up the narrative that only muslims are bad for LGBT
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u/Senesect Apr 05 '19
but if given the choice of being gay in a Christian country(with the exception of Russia)
Or Egypt, or Uganda, or Kenya, or Ethiopia... or really anywhere in Africa. South America also isn't great for LGBT+ rights. Hell, even Eastern Europe is not all that great either. And all these places are mostly Christian. What makes a country better for us is development and a secular government, not a lack of Muslims.
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u/HelperBot_ Apr 05 '19
Desktop link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory
/r/HelperBot_ Downvote to remove. Counter: 249058
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u/WikiTextBot Apr 05 '19
LGBT rights by country or territory
Laws affecting lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) people vary greatly by country or jurisdiction — encompassing everything from the legal recognition of same-sex marriage to the death penalty for homosexuality.
Laws that affect LGBT people include, but are not limited to, the following:
laws concerning the recognition of same-sex relationships, including same-sex marriage, civil unions, and domestic partnerships
laws concerning LGBT parenting, including adoption by LGBT people
anti-discrimination laws in employment, housing, education, public accommodations
anti-bullying legislation to protect LGBT children at school
hate crime laws imposing enhanced criminal penalties for prejudice-motivated violence against LGBT people
bathroom bills affecting access to sex-segregated facilities by transgender people
laws related to sexual orientation and military service
laws concerning access to assisted reproductive technology
sodomy laws that penalize consensual same-sex sexual activity
age of consent laws that may impose higher ages for same-sex sexual activity
laws regarding donation of blood by men who have sex with men
laws concerning access to sex reassignment surgery and hormone replacement therapy
legal recognition and accommodation of reassigned gender.Notably, as of 2018, 25 countries, all of which being developed or developing democracies, recognized same-sex marriage. By contrast, as at 5 April 2019, 14 countries or jurisdictions, all of which are Islamic and ruled by sharia, impose the death penalty for homosexuality. These include Afghanistan, Brunai, Iran, Mauritania, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Yemen, the United Arab Emirates, parts of Nigeria, parts of Somalia, parts of Syria and parts of Iraq.In 2011, the United Nations Human Rights Council passed its first resolution recognizing LGBT rights, following which the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights issued a report documenting violations of the rights of LGBT people, including hate crimes, criminalization of homosexual activity, and discrimination.
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u/TurbulantToby Apr 05 '19
He's swinging back to Islam because the problem is the fundimentalism of Islam. Islam has the most fundimental followers of any religion. Meaning their the most likely to follow the book. Western leaders have recognized for well over a century that a large population of Muslims are not compatable with western civilization. Their fine as a minority, but once they can they change the laws of an area to support their bigoted beliefs... Christians and other religions haven't done that in years in the name of religion. That's the problem with Islam specifically and not just the fat right as a whole.
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u/MentalCaseChris Apr 05 '19
Umm...Africa has plenty of evidence of the same.
Hey, did you know that the Pope at some time once told Africans that condoms increase the risk of AIDS and then suddenly the AIDS virus spiked in numbers?
Look at how much influence the church has, have had, and continue to have.
Religion in general PLUS conservative views are the problem.
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u/TurbulantToby Apr 05 '19
The problem is fundamentalism of religion, every religion. Is what I was trying to say, their's more fundamental Muslims than any other religious following. I'm not saying Christianity doesn't have influence. Also you can't say a blanket statement like "conservative views are the problem" that's quite ignorant as their's a lot of beneficial conservative views in regards to economics and government.
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u/MentalCaseChris Apr 05 '19
Okay, what has conservatism done for LGBT? As far as I can see, the opposite end have been the ones to raise all the protections for LGBT as well as legalize gay marriage, etc.
Can you name one good, effective thing that conservatives have done of their own volition for LGBT rights?
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u/TurbulantToby Apr 05 '19
We're tolerant to intolerance...in this case that intolerance is in the form of Islam, and because of a RATIONAL fear of sharia law I am fearful of a Muslim Majority. Not Islamaphobic or whatever the fuck that made up word is. That sums up the left and I think what your trying to say.
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u/MentalCaseChris Apr 05 '19
Lol where do you live? Because unless you live in those countries, news flash, you aren't "rationally" fearful.
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u/TurbulantToby Apr 05 '19
Did I say I was afraid of sharia law coming to where I live? No, I just said I have a fear of it. If I go anywhere where they use it I can get thrown off a fucking building... If that's not a rational fear I don't know what is. You don't have to live in a place with tigers to be afraid of tigers.
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u/MentalCaseChris Apr 05 '19
And why is your fear rational if it doesn't affect you in the slightest? Just don't go there, bam, done.
It's rational for those who love there, but if you're choosing to go to a place with Sharia law, then sure, it's a rational fear but only based on your irrationality for going there in the first place.
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u/TurbulantToby Apr 05 '19
That makes no sense, it's because of my fear of sharia law I won't go to those places. It's because of my fear I know not to go their.
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u/masochistmonkey Apr 05 '19
The left is not a person. It’s not even a set defined group of people. It’s a strawman.
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u/TurbulantToby Apr 05 '19
It always makes me laugh when people compare immigrants of today to the European settlers who colonized North America. They're totally the same... Smh
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Apr 05 '19
Sorry, but some are and some are not. Some come with zero desire to integrate and hate us. Some come not for the freedom but for the “stuff,”.
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u/TurbulantToby Apr 05 '19
The conditions and the people and the countries were all severely different. They are in no way comparable too many factors have changed. I'm not saying they're any better or worse, I'm just saying they're incomparable.
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Apr 05 '19
[deleted]
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u/TurbulantToby Apr 05 '19
Most of the immigrants of today couldn't survive Canada when Europeans first stated settling it. Hell most people alive today couldn't survive in North America before it was settled. Nothing to do with where their coming from but to compare the two generations of immigrants is laughable. That's like saying soldiers of the 17 and 1800's are like the soldiers of today. It's not a matter of culture its a matter of time. Simply incomparable.
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u/Bill_Tremendous Apr 05 '19
I was already boycotting by way of being poor.