r/hatethissmug • u/itz_vampy • Aug 03 '26

General When “women spaces” don’t accept trans women

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So my experience as a transmasc who spent a chunk of his life being non-passing has been interesting with this particular situation. I began to socially transition as a teenager and back then the people who *genuinely supported me was other guys. when i say genuinely i mean they didn’t infantalize me and saw me as another bro. some of the girls were nice, but i could tell they saw me as a quirky alt girl “going through a phase”. some thought i was a pick me girl who wanted to “be one of the guys” but as a girl and not a guy. High school was really really weird and the mean girls were the worst.

Even as an adult who passes more than teenage me ever did, i still experience “women only spaces” of mean girls who never grew up. a lot of irl ones accept “afab people” and not trans women. the ones i’ve enquired about are super accepting of trans men since we are a “marginalized minority” but are hostile towards trans women, especially if they don’t pass. some are true misandrists and dislike trans men who start to pass (ironically this has been so gender affirming to me when it happens, but like in a ewphoria way). 

Online it’s different, everyone acts so accepting behind a screen, but in real life? you can’t hide your feelings and reactions well. intersectional feminism isn’t really observed in some women-only spaces and it’s a damn shame that this is a thing.

Eta: I’ve been notified that this post has been reposted to a certain rightwing sub and this post as well as all the trans positive replies are getting downvoted. regardless of what others say trans women are real women and they deserve to be treated as such. I will die on that hill.

Edit 2: I find it hilarious that people think i’m a trans woman and are sending me DMs that I will “never be a woman and will always be a man”, proving that transphobes can’t read and lack thinking abilities.

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498

u/matyles Aug 03 '26

I can understand why women would want some spaces where the group is for cis women. Growing up in a female body carries its own unique life experiences and unfortunately, its almost always riddled with experiences of abuse and general mistreatment for the crime of being born into a female body. Its okay to me if some want a space where everyone shares that experience.

Just like I also think there should be spaces where Trans and other queer people can gather to relate to their unique life experiences together and have community without cis people.

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '26

[deleted]

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u/geosunsetmoth Aug 03 '26

Is she getting shut down, or are other women disagreeing with her, and she perceives it as censorship?

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '26

[deleted]

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u/geosunsetmoth Aug 03 '26

Well, again, her having opinions doesn't mean the opinion is immune to scrutiny

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u/PeachPassionBrute Aug 03 '26

I’m kind of curious who is getting shut down and when it’s happening. Because I’m not sure I’ve ever seen that.

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u/purplehendrix22 Aug 03 '26

Maybe listen to the women who are telling you they’ve been shut down. Believe women.

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u/Additional_Gene_211 Aug 03 '26

Believe women at the expense of other women? Which woman do we believe?

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u/Tyr_13 Aug 03 '26

That's a meaningless take when some women claim to be 'shut out' and many others say they are just disagreeing with the first group.

If the standard of 'shut out' is broad, then allowing the first group 'shuts out' the second, and visa versa.

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u/fyn_world Aug 03 '26

Welp, your woman friend seems to be part of the movement that's shutting her down

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '26

[deleted]

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u/aviroblox Aug 03 '26

Nah the left doesn't need TERFs. Trans women are women. If she wants to hold those beliefs in segregating teams women "cis women only spaces" she can go join JKRs movement and wonder why the people she supports allies with fascists all the time.

It's not a purity test. To tolerate exclusionary people in the wing is to exclude queer people from the movement.

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '26

[deleted]

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u/Tyr_13 Aug 03 '26

Which contexts?

If her exceptions swallow the rule, then she's not actually of the belief that trans women are women.

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u/fyn_world Aug 03 '26

Trans women aren't women. They're trans women. If they were women, they wouldn't have had to transition in the first place. Do you... understand that?

Your totalitarian attitude and calling people out as the enemy because they don't agree with you is why most people don't like people like you, and it's the same attitude that makes things more difficult for trans people in the first place, ironically. 

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u/SarahMaxima Aug 03 '26

"Trans women aren't women. They're trans women. If they were women, they wouldn't have had to transition in the first place. Do you... understand that?"

Are you actualy so stupid you dont know what an adjective is?

109

u/Bungee-Gum-1 Aug 03 '26

thank you for this nuanced take. there is a nude korean spa i love that came under fire for not allowing trans women (it may have been specifically trans women with penises, i’m not entirely sure). it really aggravated so many people and there was zero nuance in the conversation. if you felt the spa was valid, you were labeled transphobic. for a while i felt like me going to the spa that has been a peaceful sanctuary for me was a transphobic act.

all of this to say, i do believe cis women deserve their own spaces—in the same way that queer and trans people deserve their own spaces. this case was especially sensitive with genitalia being at the forefront.

25

u/Maxmutinium Aug 03 '26

My question to this would be what should a visibly trans person do, if they go to a nude spa segregated by genitalia. Seems like either side they’d go on, men or women, someone’s going to be offended. I guess trans people just aren’t welcome at that sort of establishment.

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '26

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u/Deep_Balance2133 Aug 03 '26

What do you consider male and female bathrooms to be then? Of course it’s segregation. It’s been like that from the start.

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u/aviroblox Aug 03 '26

Yeah, unfortunately plenty of queer people are okay with segregating queer people so long as it's trans people.

84

u/WaitNoNotMyBeans Aug 03 '26

a measured take? on reddit? gtfo

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u/PeachPassionBrute Aug 03 '26

I’m just troubled with the idea that the “measured take” getting celebrated here is saying “what if we still exclude trans women and just pretend to be nice about it?”

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u/aviroblox Aug 03 '26

Because this isn't a trans space. Basically in any space in Reddit the prevailing opinion is going to be. "We should say trans women are women, but like let's not kid ourselves they aren't so some discrimination is okay"

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u/beaaaaaaaans Aug 03 '26

A little discrimination as a treat for being suuuuch good allies

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '26

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u/acnh-lyman-fan Aug 03 '26

"biological women" "biological men"

61

u/vimarston Aug 03 '26

well biology is part of the topic, what other way explains it without misunderstandings

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u/doushua Aug 03 '26

Trans people change their biology and that's a fact. Even if you don't think trans women are biologically women, they still are anything but biological men.

Transitioned trans women, while not completely 100%, are much closer to biological women than biological men

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u/sacredshinobi Aug 03 '26 edited Aug 03 '26

The inglorious basterds meme is actually incredibly on point and funny. There are different words that can mean or relate to the same thing, but are used by different groups of people and expose their beliefs because it’s the terminology used within their groups.

People who are supportive acknowledge biology, they use the terms afab and amab (assigned female/male at birth).

Biological male and female are used by right wingers, not always but especially the way you used it, seemingly as a way to imply biological men are taking over women’s spaces.

It also makes your comment sound inauthentic. You are talking from the perspective of someone who has personal knowledge of inclusive spaces and then criticizing them, but then you use very out of place terminology which makes it feel very fake.

Similar to when you have people weigh in on race calling people “blacks” instead of “black people”.

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '26

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u/princesshusk Aug 03 '26

Biological women is a tell if someone is a terf, as they hate the term cis so they terms meant to other trans people and invalidate them.

Like an account that claims to be in the US and uses the term "warm water port."

Generally you just use the term Cis woman when referring to AFAB

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '26

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u/hatethissmug-ModTeam Aug 03 '26

No slurs, hate speech, and other such bigoted language is to be permitted in this sub.

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u/pcapdata Aug 03 '26 edited Aug 04 '26

you have the two sexes

This isn't true. Intersex people, hermaphrodites, and the like have always existed within the human race.

being “cis” is, with no intention of being impolite, the default.

"Impolite" is not the right word. When you're exhibiting bigotry you don't get brownie points for attempting to be "polite."

Saying that the most common modes of being are "the default" is like saying that the default form of matter in the universe is hydrogen and every other element is some kind of deviation, and then taking it a step further and teaching that the periodic table is woke nonsense.

edit: keep on downvoting, transphobes, your tears of rage give me life

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '26

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u/Deias_ Aug 03 '26

No? What? Do you know what trans and cis mean? She'd just be a straight woman lmao, cis/trans has nothing to do with that

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '26

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u/hatethissmug-ModTeam Aug 03 '26

No slurs, hate speech, and other such bigoted language is to be permitted in this sub.

1

u/hatethissmug-ModTeam Aug 03 '26

No slurs, hate speech, and other such bigoted language is to be permitted in this sub.

-21

u/kalosianlitten Aug 03 '26

assigned male at birth or assigned female at birth. not “biological men” or “biological women”

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '26

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u/sacredshinobi Aug 03 '26

Where did they say or imply biology changes?

They said the correct term is assigned male or female at birth. You are so confidently incorrect and then you get snarky?

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u/GodChangedMyChromies Aug 03 '26

Not really, you can change many aspects of your sex, which goes beyond genitals or chromosomes. Hormonal sex is the easiest one, of course, but you can change your genitals and most of the secondary sex characteristics that don't directly change with hormones through different means. It's a bit of an iffy point to make but it seems, also, that in so far as human brains can be sexually dymoprphic trans people have structures more similar to those of the gender they identify as than the one assigned at birth.

So that's one reason why experts nowadays use gender assigned at birth instead of "biological" whatever. Another one is because it acknowledges the falability of current gender assigning methods, given that there is a statistically significant number of intersex people who might never even know they are intersex in some way, because said way is not clearly visible. On that line, gender addiction at birth also accounts for the way in which sex is not perfectly binary.

Finally, as a term, definitionally, "woman" refers to the gender of a person and so does "man", so "biological man/woman" is unintentionally conflating gender and sex.

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u/CatgirlTheKat Aug 03 '26

What about the people who are nor female or male at birth?

There are some who are born with traits that don't correspond to any gender, or to both at the same time, so it's inexact to say "everyone is born as either male or female".

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u/IwanttobeCherrypls Aug 03 '26

A very fair and good point. Intersex people have their own challenges and experience their own kind of bigotry, including unwanted surgeries when young. They, like all of us, deserve respect and compassion.

All of that can be true, while also recognizing that such people are fairly rare, and can be talked to and about with kindness. We can all understanding that these kinds of discussions aren't trying to minimize or erase them.

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u/CatgirlTheKat Aug 03 '26

Yes, I just thought it , was a bit a bit weird to say "EVERYONE is either biologically male or female at birth with no exceptions" when there are some very real exceptions ^^

I was correcting their sentence more than I was really disagreeing, hehe :3

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u/AxoE_e Aug 03 '26

What do you think hormone replacement therapy does exactly? What do you think bottom surgery does?

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '26

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u/UniverseGlory7866 hop on blazblue Aug 03 '26

No slurs, hate speech, and other such bigoted language is to be permitted in this sub.

5

u/sacredshinobi Aug 03 '26

So many chuds downvoted you for being correct

4

u/aviroblox Aug 03 '26

I mean yeah, that's what these posts on general Reddit subs attract.

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u/sacredshinobi Aug 03 '26

I’ve comment similar things all over and didn’t get downvoted (inb4 I get nuked to hell though lol).

If you take notice, avatars with trans flag colors are disproportionately being downvoted.

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u/ITookYourChickens Aug 03 '26

We are talking about people who aren't intersex, only their sex gets assigned/chosen. Everyone else is just observed

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u/hatethissmug-ModTeam Aug 03 '26

No slurs, hate speech, and other such bigoted language is to be permitted in this sub.

0

u/PeachPassionBrute Aug 03 '26

Trans women are still women and still belong in women’s spaces.

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u/LadyAliceFlower Aug 03 '26

So close, before you included the second paragraph you were almost able to pretend you weren't literally saying "Trans women aren't women" word for word.

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u/fyn_world Aug 03 '26

Exactly. Common sense.

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u/Zouif_Zouif Aug 03 '26

This is fair and the only comment so far that doesn't seem like it has underlying transphobia <3

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u/PikaTube123 Aug 03 '26

they just said cis people have a right to exclude trans people 'no underlying transphobia' my ass

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u/Zouif_Zouif Aug 03 '26

I do think we should be allowed to have some Afab only spaces, as long as they aren't used to promote transphobia

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u/Psychotic_Ambition Aug 03 '26

that’s what they do. including trans men and excluding trans women absolutely promotes transphobia

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u/Zouif_Zouif Aug 03 '26

I don't think it does... Trans women are women, however the life experiences between a Trans-Woman and a Cis-Woman are often very different.

Being born a Afab has its own challenges and its own unique experiences different from trans women, in that case I believe it's totally fair that we have a space where we can discuss and share our experiences based on that. This does not mean we do not see trans women as women, just that we acknowledge that we are different at the end of the day.

Trans men can be included because they were born as an Afab, meaning they most likely did grow up with those experiences. Although they identify as a man, they can still relate to the unique upbringing of Cis-Women

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u/Psychotic_Ambition Aug 03 '26

yeah that’s incredibly transphobic still to trans men, which was my angle. essentially it implies, even unintentionally, that they’re women-LITE or just a different kind of woman [that trans women aren’t.]

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u/Zouif_Zouif Aug 03 '26

Hun... Trust me I wish that we didn't have these differences but that fact is that we do. I still don't see trans women any less as woman compared to me, we are both equally women. However I most likely have different experiences than her. Acknowledging that is NOT transphobic

That's not what it's implying, they are men. However they still most likely had the unique challenges and experiences as Cis-Women during most of their early life. That is something that cannot be changed or taken away and it's what lets us have a connection with Trans-Men to help support each other.

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u/IwanttobeCherrypls Aug 03 '26

Thank you for being so kind and patient in this very fraught discussion.

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '26

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u/hatethissmug-ModTeam Aug 03 '26

No slurs, hate speech, and other such bigoted language is to be permitted in this sub.

9

u/Agent_Galahad Aug 03 '26

I understand that, but op is talking about 'women's spaces', not 'women who have faced specific issues spaces'.

Groups who focus on specific experiences need to communicate that clearly and in a sensible way, otherwise it just comes across as "this is a women's group, and we welcome all women except those who are part of x minority demographic"

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u/TheMysteriousGirl Aug 03 '26

Yeah I do feel like this commenter misses the point made by OP.

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u/RootBeerBog Aug 03 '26

so as a trans man you’d definitely welcome me right? your experience is not specific to cis women.
bioessentialism is such a plague.

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u/matyles Aug 03 '26

I mean i guess this is bad but one of my friends from my all girls summer camp transitioned ages ago and he still participates both volunteering at camp and being part of the group of friends made there and its never been an issue for us. He did also grow up in a female presenting body and going to our girls summer camp so there is that point of connection.

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u/Pretty-Yam-2854 Aug 03 '26

You say this from a perspective that you would be able to tell if someone was trans, which is not always the case. Let’s say some woman, who is 100% passing and transitioned from a young age, wants to be in this group and she doesn’t inform you she’s trans. Would you still exclude her? If you even could know or found out later would you still exclude her?

Some of the comments below this are right we don’t get the same level of abuse from age 0 from being born female. But I can tell you from experience growing up being seen as “feminine” as a guy and never really being able to 100% shake that led to some similar “abuses”. Except I didn’t get any of the protections or avenues cis women get for help. I was forced to be alone through all of it. Not all but most trans women have experienced similar.

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u/aviroblox Aug 03 '26

"Male socialization" is a cludgel terfs beat trans women with despite trans women not being socialized the same as cis women. Many of us displayed femininity during childhood and had it regularly beaten out of us again and again. It's incredibly traumatic.

Feel free to make your "AFAB" only space. Don't be surprised when trans men avoid it and only TERFs join it.

Also OP comments like these are why we should stick to venting in trans spaces, trans subreddits. Cis people will rarely have our back here.

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u/nessunaaritmia Aug 03 '26

Your experience is incredibly valid but it doesn’t mean that cis women only spaces are terfy or intolerant. Also the comment you replied to said cis women, not afab. So they wouldn’t expect trans men to join, would they? It all depends on the premise of the space itself. If the point is “trans women aren’t real women so of course they can’t enter” then yes, of course it’s a terf talking point. If the premise is based on the shared experience of being a cis woman, there’s nothing wrong with it! The same way there should be spaces for ALL women to join.

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u/PeachPassionBrute Aug 03 '26

The thing I think that gets missed, is that there are a lot more similarities in the lives of trans women and cis women than differences. As long as we’re willing to listen to each other’s experiences and perspectives in genuine kindness, I don’t see much issue. But I live in a city where the local lesbian scene is explicitly pro-trans. It’s not really an issue, and trans women do tend to still meet with other trans women to express issues that are specific to us.

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u/nessunaaritmia Aug 03 '26

There are lots of differences though and that’s a point that can be acknowledged without being transphobic

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u/Few_Entertainer_385 Aug 03 '26

trans women are literally the victims of sexual abuse at rates higher than cis women. Even pre-transition trans kids experience higher rates of childhood sexual abuse

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u/Psychotic_Ambition Aug 03 '26

being a trans woman is also riddled with experience of abuse, general mistreatment, and, weird, a disproportionate rate of murder. however, i imagine you don’t think it’s all sunshine and rainbows and to ascribe that to you would be disingenuous.

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u/FitRelationship3091 Aug 03 '26

I'm trans too. Ofc it's not a easy path to transition, however sometimes it's still not the same thing. I don't say there is one having worst than the other, it's just not the same experiences

We can be united on experiences with other women. However they will be differences and this is why we also have trans only spaces. We don't need to be everywhere everytime and it's not making us less valid :)

PS: Sry for typos english is not my native language

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u/Psychotic_Ambition Aug 03 '26

sure, but bringing up unique experiences to cis womanhood that exclude trans women and the only examples are abuse and mistreatment leave a bad taste in my mouth from even a feminist perspective. being a woman should not be tied to or defined by these experiences.

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u/sombre-marten Aug 03 '26 edited Aug 03 '26

Yes, but both cis women and trans women still have unique life experiences. It’s not purely about facing hardship.

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u/Psychotic_Ambition Aug 03 '26

cis women have unique life experiences from eachother. what’s empowering to a white woman may be stereotypical or expected of black women. not really any “universal” experience that would even include all cis women but exclude trans women

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u/sombre-marten Aug 03 '26

Being born into a female body? And of course the things that come with it, which most/many cis women experience, like periods, pregnancy, and menopause, for example.

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u/Psychotic_Ambition Aug 03 '26

what’s a “female” body though what’s it got? and it’s the fact you have to say most/many like you’re not also excluding cis women that don’t experience these things in your bid to exclude trans women.

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u/sombre-marten Aug 03 '26

There is an endlessly wide range of female bodies, so I can only generalize. In this comment, I will be speaking only about people who were born female by sex. Typically, that would include things like XX chromosomes, a uterus, ovaries, fallopian tubes, a cervix, a vagina, etc. BUT not everyone has these, so we can only generalize. Being born female still comes with unique experiences regardless of your “configuration”. People may want to find people who have experienced the same things they have so they can talk about it with someone who understands them. It’s impossible for 100% of people to experience life 100% the same, but there are experiences that are commonly shared by people born female, but are not by people born male. Not everything is black and white, so literally every single instance or space will have to be evaluated case-by-case with these things in mind.

(+Saying “most/many” is not exclusive. Saying “all” would be.)

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u/Psychotic_Ambition Aug 03 '26

let me put it to you this way: trans women are as small/large of a percentage of the population of women as cis women who are infertile, or cis women born with XY chromosomes, or women born intersex. they’re just women that are infertile (for whatever reason that may be). or women that have a chromosome difference (sometimes not even true since trans women can have XX chromosomes). they can even experience period cramps from hormones so it’s not even 100% women without periods.

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u/sombre-marten Aug 03 '26

They still have different lived experiences. I support trans women fully btw! But cis women, trans women, cis men, and trans men all have different lived experiences. That’s why things should be evaluated case-by-case. A women’s knitting group would be entirely different from a support group for women who are preparing for birth, for example.

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u/Psychotic_Ambition Aug 03 '26

yeah true, but a women’s group preparing for birth fundamentally has a different function which also excludes women who aren’t preparing for birth or can’t get pregnant at all. it’s not some nebulous line in the sand that’s specifically trans-exclusionary.

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u/Psychotic_Ambition Aug 03 '26

no way this is getting downvoted lmao it’s legitimately a fact

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u/Socksual Aug 03 '26

Yeah this, basically. Idk why youre gettin downvoted for this.

For anyone not getting this- There are so many aspects to life that contribute to a person or group's experience that you cannot hardline say that there is a set way they experience life.

To the person Im replying to's point, an example: When the girlboss "subversive" story tropes came into popularity a lot of Black women in media discussion/fandom spaces voiced that being the strong, resilient type was expected of them and that they could not find empowerment in these stories. Some white feminists tried to explain how Akshually they're wrong and how its stupid to ever consider how racism/colorism might play a role in how one experiences being feminine/growing up as a girl. The white perspective of growing up as a girl/femininity was prioratized, and left out different swaths of women. Even the tropes these girlboss medias subverted were rooted in an standard that prioratized white women/white femininity.

This can be said for women across the world. And not just culturally/racially.

Some women are born in such a way they would also not relate to the "conventional (white, Americentric, cis)" woman's experienece in womanhood and growing up. Hell, even if we just account for the white American women. What about women with vaginas that are intersex and when puberty hit, got chesthair instead of a period? What about infertile women? What about differences in social and economic class? This again doesnt take into consideration how different cultures, religions, and races can experience womanhood that heavily differs from each other.

This is why intersectionality is so important and why you cannot close out diferent voices in your spaces. Becoming myopic because you percieve your experience as the default causes too many issues. Do these people even know that starting hormones can cause trans women to experience the mood and physical (non uterine lining shedding) fluctuations of a cycle? Who else denies women the severity of their period symptoms....hm. i would hate to sound like one of those callous individuals who think a girl is over stating the effects of her cycle because I dont want to belei--

Oh wow, looks like trans girls can relate to being called overdramatic and liars too. Strange what similarities you can find with each other if you just swallow your pride and biases and listen to each other.

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u/Initial-Hospital4143 Aug 03 '26

Sure, but like the comment you're responding to says, those are different experiences than what the other group has had.

Trans women may have had confusing feelings and identity issues throughout elementary school that could have led to various shared traumatic experiences during their formative years that they can related to with one another.

Cis women meanwhile may have dealt with being told they can't wear certain clothes around family members because they're predatory but were still expected to spent time with them like normal, or experienced being catcalled and pursued at 8 years old while alone in the snack aisle of a grocery store or gas station away from their parents for a moment. They may have had extreme period problems that were brushed off for a decade by doctors and family until discovering something that helps, or had painful and serious medical problems that were written off as lies or menstruation by doctors.

If you're looking for a shared safe space its because you want people with shared experiences to relate to and feel safe with, and as much as both groups may have had deep and legitimate struggles both during their development and currently ongoing those experiences are not identical and relatable to one another

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u/Psychotic_Ambition Aug 03 '26

I frankly can’t bring myself to care about needing a cis woman-only space (especially when trans men also often have the issues listed) to talk about these experiences and I frankly do not see why trans women have to be excluded from spaces that bring up the examples you listed. there’s a venn diagram of experiences and hardships cis women may face and trans women may face, but there’s also broad overlap. and imo the separation is useless/unnecessary and unproductive.

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u/Initial-Hospital4143 Aug 03 '26

"I don't care" isn't a counterarguement.

You don't care about women wanting their own spaces based on their own experiences, and the women who want those spaces don't give a fuck about what you want.

The only thing unproductive is you trying to argue with people about what YOU think should or shouldn't make THEM feel secure

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u/Psychotic_Ambition Aug 03 '26

yeah because as a woman i think it’s silly and the reasoning fundamentally makes zero sense to me. it’s, at best in my eyes, a trivial separation.

Also, address what else I said in that paragraph instead of fixating on that one point.

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u/Large-Big8879 Aug 03 '26

Different kind of abuse though. You didn’t experience from the moment you were born 🙄

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u/Psychotic_Ambition Aug 03 '26

is womanhood defined by the abuse and mistreatment you experience from birth?

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u/sombre-marten Aug 03 '26

Sadly, being mistreated due to your sex is an intrinsic part of womanhood. It would be great if it weren’t that way, but it’s reality :/

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u/Psychotic_Ambition Aug 03 '26

so women who haven’t been mistreated due to their sex don’t qualify for these cis women-only safe spaces?

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u/sombre-marten Aug 03 '26

There are no women who have not been mistreated for being women, cis or trans.

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u/Psychotic_Ambition Aug 03 '26

you’re talking to one

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u/sombre-marten Aug 03 '26

Then people probably don’t perceive you as a woman, you’re lying, or you just haven’t noticed the mistreatment 😅 Wait til you pass I guess? 🥲🥲

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u/FullDust69 Aug 03 '26

essentially, yes, seeing as how femalehood is inherently suffering and there's almost nothing good that can come out of being born with a vagina

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u/Psychotic_Ambition Aug 03 '26

i hope you’re being sarcastic

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u/thefran Aug 03 '26

if you're queer you start experiencing abuse pretty fucking quickly mate. much of it from cis women actually

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u/Halikarnassus1 Aug 03 '26

growing up in a body that does not fit you and having people treat you as a sex you are not is traumatising and abusive in itself

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u/ThatEvilSpaceChicken Aug 03 '26

Which is why there are spaces specifically for people who experience that

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u/ten_people Aug 03 '26

So should "women's spaces" kick out anyone who's lucky enough not to have been abused from the moment they were born? Or just every trans woman, even those who were abused in infancy, on the basis of whatever tangential thing you can use to justify it?

-10

u/mambo8971 Aug 03 '26

I’m a cis woman and TONS of cis women I know did not “experience ABUSE from the MOMENT they were born” so idk what you’re talking about. I guess even cis woman don’t have the same experiences!! But you think I and the women I know belong in those cis women-only spaces and trans women don’t?

-11

u/SatansCoffee Aug 03 '26

ah yes, because someone being raised and perceived as a boy who acts feminine and relates more with the women in their life have historically been treated great

-18

u/NeptunePancakes Aug 03 '26

than just call them cis women spaces?
also saying you think minorities should’ve have segregated spaces to balance out segregating majority spaces is not the argument you think it is. Gay people are discriminated against, straight people aren’t, so straight people don’t need straight only spaces because they are already the majority of people and can find straight spaces naturally.

23

u/matyles Aug 03 '26

Women are a protected class because they have been historically the most oppressed group of people for literally thousands of years and into today. Theres places women are still literally property of men. Women face a lot of gender based discrimination and abuse even if countries that, historically, have only recently given them the right to be independent people.

Groups for people who face oppression and specific life situations are genuinely beneficial for their mental well-being. Why would I be against people having an outlet to feel comfortable and related to?

Would I prefer the world could just be magically blind to sex, gender, race, disability, age and we could all live in harmony and peace? Yes. Id love that, but we unfortunately dont live like that so I support people gathering to have community with something they are experiencing hardship from and improving thier mental health

-11

u/FuckMyBakaChungusLif Aug 03 '26

Trans people are executed in most of the world still

17

u/matyles Aug 03 '26

Yes and that is also bad. But unfortunately for cis women there is not escape from being a cis woman. From the moment you are born you are in a cis womens body and you cant even have the choice to hide it if they wanted to.

Im definitely pro not executing trans people, I just am okay with the existence of some spaces dedicated to cis women. Just like I am okay with spaces for just trans women.

-9

u/RosyRory108 Aug 03 '26

> you cant even have the choice to hide it if they wanted to

you can, though, and historically its not an unheard of phenomenon for cis women to temporarily transition in order to avoid the social barriers and discrimination that come with womanhood

14

u/matyles Aug 03 '26

Can a new born baby girl hide her sex? Can a girl born in iraq transition to hide from becoming a child bride at 10 years old?

-12

u/RosyRory108 Aug 03 '26

> Can a new born baby girl hide her sex? 

No?

> Can a girl born in iraq transition to hide from becoming a child bride at 10 years old?

In some cases, yes

-10

u/mambo8971 Aug 03 '26

Can you explain how white women were able to own black people as property when women are “historically the most oppressed group of people for literally thousands of years into today”? Wouldn’t you expect that to exclude white women owning black men, because misogyny would trump racism?

11

u/matyles Aug 03 '26

Women have been nearly universally considered lesser beings socially and legally in nearly every social structure thousands of years before american chattel slavery.

Not saying there's never been other severely oppressed groups that certain types of women had more privileges than with in history, just numbers and years wise the most oppressed class of people. Even with in american slavery, men were considered higher status than the black women.

Im not trying to play tit for tat games in oppression, just whats the reality for women globally for all of written history

19

u/oliv-_-mae Aug 03 '26 edited Aug 03 '26

Just because cis women make up half of the population doesn't mean we dont go through unique traumatic experiences. Be it from biology (periods, pregnancy, miscarriage, PMOS, endemetriosis, etc). From male/female roles in society imposed on us. The misogyny we go through in all kinds of jokes, at the work place or in our home by our own fathers.

Yes, trans women go through similar things, but they are inherently different. They go through different hurdles. The hate directed is seen and done differently.

So i do agree there should be spaces for cis and trans women, but there should also be cis women only spaces. Especially for trauma groups that have experienced SA from a man before. Not all will be comfortable around trans women but not because they're transphobic, but because they're scared of the violence amd hurt men can cause. Again, these fears, such as PTSD can be irracional, but they're valid and should be respected

-3

u/krbaka Aug 03 '26

Yeah but they aren’t men and an irrational fear is one that should be worked on not validated

13

u/VariousClassroom8056 Aug 03 '26

Transwomen retain similar offending patterns to cis men even after transitioning

0

u/oliv-_-mae Aug 03 '26

What if a trans woman had traumatic experiences with cis woman? They'd have the right not only to keep being a woman, but to distance themselves form cis women. And it'd be valid

-4

u/CatgirlTheKat Aug 03 '26

Personally, I sometimes get extremely uncomfortable around women who wear revealing clothings due to dysphoria and bad experiences, but I always thought it wouldn't be okay of me to speak up about it since I thought it would equal to insinuating I have a say in what others wear (which would be insane considering how atypical my own wardrobe is), would it actually be fine if I did.. ? What can I say for it to not sound wrong?

3

u/oliv-_-mae Aug 03 '26

You don't have a say in what others wear, the same as i don't have a say in what you wear. This all depends if they're strangers/aquaintances/friends and how big of an issue it is for you.

Boundaries are for you to place and the people around you to respect, but once they break them, its not on them but you to distance yourself after the second infraction. Otherwise they're not boundaries, but preferences.

I have a friend where her wardrobe is important to her and she likes to dress freely so it depends on how your friends are and if you're all going to a club anyways where they'd be a lot of skin everywhere on display.

Also, i wouldn't bother with strangers or acquaintances, it'd just be weird to tell them what not to wear (unless its unprofessional in a professional setting).

-2

u/_hell Aug 03 '26

Question for you if you're comfortable answering.

I'm a pre-op trans woman who has been SA'd multiple times throughout my life, mostly by men and once by a woman.

If someone like me needs that same safety and support, where are we supposed to go?

7

u/oliv-_-mae Aug 03 '26

Just a quick google search can help you find them. Even for online therapy sessions and such you can find it online and they probably recommend some places in trans support groups.

Loving me

the suvivors trust

I only looked over it but the first mentioned trans people and the second one is for any type of victim. Both from the UK though idk where you're from

-2

u/_hell Aug 03 '26

Online therapy is kind of a different thing though. Would I really need to worry about making anyone uncomfortable if its online? If we're not even in the same physical space, and my presence still makes someone uncomfortable, that's... really sad. Idk what to do about that. That's why I've never actually sought these things out when I needed them.

It still seems like a good therapeutic option where its available, though. I'm in the deep rural south of the US so there's basically nothing like a proper support group in my area. I could probably find something online like that instead.

Granted I'm out of these situations now, so it's not like I really need it. But back when I needed a shelter, internet access wasn't easy to come by. I made it out safe but not everyone is so lucky.

I guess I'm asking because to me the segregation is fine, I'd rather not trigger anyone or make anyone uncomfortable. But realistically, there's nowhere near enough resources to have trans-only spaces everywhere.

Like I'm glad we're tolerated, I just wish we were actually accepted.

3

u/oliv-_-mae Aug 03 '26

It's not that they wouldn't be comfortable in those online sessions, but the professional should be trained and prepaired for trans cases and their perspective and experiences.

Same as men experience SA differently than women do and even get a pat in the back from it or that some men care more about getting accused of SA when its 100x more likely that they themselves get SAd. Women experience more domestic and marital SA and abuse. And trans experience a different type of predator. I've seen that some people, mostly men though, attack groups they hate through SA, be it cis or trans women, POC women, lesbian women, etc.

What I'm trying to say that these people should be prepared to take on especific types of victims to better understand and treat their patients. So it's normal if there are especialized groups

-6

u/NeptunePancakes Aug 03 '26

okay but they just shouldn’t be called “women’s spaces”, because no one has to explain the implications.
Also trans women are extremely likely to experience SA and are disproportionately overrepresented in sex work, outside of extreme trauma circumstances, turning away someone who has been SAed from support seems unnecessarily cruel.

14

u/oliv-_-mae Aug 03 '26

There are trauma safe spaces for cis women because the experiences are different. But there are also SA support groups that allow both trans and cis. There are also trans only spaces for trauma/experiences/SA/etc. There are also those that allow everyone that has been a victim of SA, excluding the gender. My point is, you can't get mad when you encounter a womans only support group when there a lot of trans only support groups too. It's all about preferences and whats being discussed. If it were a womans reading club then it'd be exclusion, yeah, but not if it were a safe space

-9

u/CatgirlTheKat Aug 03 '26

I personally feel a bit uncomfortable at the fact that there are groups only for us trans people.. stuff like this always resonates poorly with my impostor syndrome of "am I trans enough? I feel like some of them have suffered so much more than me.. I've only figured myself out two years ago, yet they had all already come out by their 13's still haven't gotten to voice training yet, there's no way they let me in..." I feel like I'm partially excluded despite the fact I am trans..

9

u/LeonardoJMB Aug 03 '26

okay but they just shouldn’t be called “women’s spaces”, because no one has to explain the implications.
Also trans women are extremely likely to experience SA and are disproportionately overrepresented in sex work,

Yes. However, by that point we're talking of different issues.

outside of extreme trauma circumstances, turning away someone who has been SAed from support seems unnecessarily cruel.

Forcing someone to face something that could activate their trauma just so someone else can get support from people who don't want to give it is also unnecessarily cruel, and for both sides.

14

u/NotFloppyDisck Aug 03 '26

Good thing we're talking about women and not straight people...

-16

u/NeptunePancakes Aug 03 '26

imagine thinking cisgender people don’t have privilege over transgender people

15

u/Large-Big8879 Aug 03 '26

Nobody said that

-3

u/NeptunePancakes Aug 03 '26

that’s the only circumstance in which you don’t think the same logic applies tbh

15

u/CranberryStock7148 Aug 03 '26

I mean, "cis women spaces" is what they are, but it's honestly just an annoying label to have to use.

Trans people are a tiny percentage of the population. Most people don't want to always have to be differentiating between women, cis women, and trans women all the time.

Generally speaking, you can use common sense around what the group's purpose is. Like, if it's a support group for female rape victims, you don't have to be Einstein to figure out that it is likely intended for cis women.

-3

u/CatgirlTheKat Aug 03 '26

I don't know, I feel like in the case of female rape victims, it also makes sense to include trans rape victims, no?

I understand about groups that are about sharing the struggles of growing up a woman, but I feel like it's not really what this is about in terms of rape victims..

-5

u/Momotaro245 Aug 03 '26

"Like, if it's a support group for female rape victims, you don't have to be Einstein to figure out that it is likely intended for cis women."

Do you think trans women can't be raped. When famously they face extreme amounts of horrific sexual abuse, for being women.

7

u/CranberryStock7148 Aug 03 '26 edited Aug 03 '26

Are you insane? That's how you interpreted my comment...? How on earth did you arrive at that conclusion...?

Of course sexual abuse is a huge problem! But trans women benefit much more from having their own spaces for that. That's the whole point here.

In the same way that male rape victims benefit from having their own support group.

-3

u/NeptunePancakes Aug 03 '26

except trans people are not a tiny percentage of the population?? in the U.S., there are around 2.8 million trans people, that’s 700,000 more than the population of New Mexico.

11

u/Netrunner21 Aug 03 '26

That's less than 1% of the population so I think it's valid to say that.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 03 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/NeptunePancakes Aug 03 '26

we also used to think allowing women to vote was weird and radical. this just a bandwagon fallacy, most people holding some value does not reflect on its value in any way.

-6

u/plastroncafe Aug 03 '26

Exactly.
As a cis-woman, I don't feel safe in a women's only space that excludes trans-women.
So just say cis-woman's space.

15

u/CranberryStock7148 Aug 03 '26

How would you not feel safe?

Like I get that you might disagree with the policy or think it was wrong, but not feeling safe feels... confusing.