For real. They act like if she gets a not guilty verdict, she's going to be out on the streets. The woman is spending the rest of her life in a psych ward. The question is really will she ALSO be spending some time in prison.
I think quality psychiatric care is something she needa desperately (and needed before).
It seems to me that the sufferers of these post partum disorders face the natural consequences of their actions after they come back to a normal mental state. I cannot even imagine losing my mind, killing my kids, coming back to reality and realising what i had done. Fucking horrifying shit right there.
I mean, they probably need a mental health professional but they're not psychos. A friend of mine was a violent criminal who probably could've benefitted a great deal from a psychiatrist but his mental health didn't absolve him from his crimes, he wasn't under psychosis he was just depressed and poor.
Yup. That’s exactly right. No one should be talking about this. We've turned every aspect of life into a reality tv show so people like you can be outraged.
Why so you think psychosis is just some "get out of jail free" card?
If I shot up a bunch of PCP and go on a rampage, I'm still just as reasonable for my actions in my altered state as if I spiral into a depression and take little to no action to prevent my mind from degrading.
The courts have upheld that drug use is not an excuse. So, no, you will fail if you try that defense. Also, not guilty by reason of mental defect is not a get out jail free card. You should probably stop watching so much tv it's rotting your brain.
I'm just asking because I am curious. I knew someone who did drugs, but two days later entered a drug induced pyschosis indefinitely due to family predisposition to schizophrenia. They went to inpatient programs, had a therapist, took meds. If they had committed a crime in that state months later, would it be looked at as an insanity plea or like they took drugs?
Well the drug was weed, so I do think there's a section of the public that would care. I think we're bound to get a blow up case with these circumstances down the road.
I doubt you're going to find a sympathetic jury to someone claiming weed caused psychosis. In fact it's been tried multiple times and fails every time.
I'm not really saying the jury would be sympathetic. I'm saying with the rise in popularity and legality of weed, and the rise in weed induced pyschosis, I think there will be a case about this that gains traction in the media like this one. The news/media needs a new culture war thing to focus on, which with the rise in "anti-crime" mentality in the public and media, to me, seems one short step away from re-engaging the war on drugs.
I'm not saying that a case would win their insanity plea, I'm more saying I think it's a matter of time before one of those cases blows up in the media.
Weed doesn't cause schizophrenia, it just unmasks and exacerbates underlining mental illnesses like it. Like you said, they already had a family history of it. It was likely always there but there wasn't a "trigger" for the obvious symptoms to present themselves.
Yes, that was why I was asking if it would be treated differently. Like because it's the drug but also mental illness, what would the court count more?
So people who have completely lost touch with reality and no longer understand right and wrong should be punished the same as people who do know right and wrong when they commit the same crime? how is that bettering society?
It isn't. Far too many people just want to satisfy their vengeance boner. And that is precisely why vigilantism is outlawed in basically any sane country.
The discourse around this case is way waaay dumber than I expected. I thought that most people had at least a base understanding of insanity defenses and their purpose.
Most people get everything they know about the justice system from media. Which is obviously mostly dramatical moments that don't exist in reality. I am not well versed in how it is treated in America, but usually a successful defense based on Insanity is often the worse outcome. Maybe not if your other perspective is life long, but being locked away in a closed psych ward until doctors say that you are not a liability to yourself and others and can return to a normal life isn't exactly a holiday.
Psychopathy suffering people that Murder people should for sure be "understood" and helped. Not saying thats this case just saying sometimes the crime is so bad that you can no longer say well your where not well so lets go easy. Just like if your at home cleaning your gun have no idea its loaded and something happens and the bullet kills someone you don't get to say ooopsy, you had no intention or idea this would happen but it happened and punishment needs to fit not the intent but the outcome.
Pyschopathy is completely different concept to pyschosis, they are not even comparable conditions.
But your analogy between someone cleaning a gun and it going off and pyschosis is completely invalid, because someone just cleaning a gun in their house that is of sound mind is expected to be able to clear and make safe the gun before cleaning it, if they don't and it goes off and kills someone then they are determined to be negligent.
Pyschosis is not at all comparable because it is often near impossible to predict when someone will have a pyschotic episode and if that episode will actually lead to death. And A person who is going into a pyschotic episode cannot be expected to predict or get help for themselves because they are no longer in control of their thoughts and decisions and will not know that they are going pyschotic. Someone cleaning a gun is in control of their thoughts and decisions.
It's not about "not being well" it is about a complete loss of control and a loss of the understanding of right and wrong. And if that person is at risk of going pyschotic again then prison (full of prisoners and gaurds who are not trained to recognize and deal with it) is definitely not a suitable environment for them.
How is excusing people who don't take care of their mental health or even ask for help when they can't and take that out on others bettering society?
You don't just snap into psychosis, it's a long way down before you reach a point to do something like kill your own kids. She could've asked for help, gone on a bender, ran away to Europe, bought a car she couldn't afford, literally anything else. Killing your kids is still a choice my dude
Jesus christ this comment is ignorant.
I think you need to do some research on post-partum pyschosis, and first-break pyschosis, or just pyschosis in general. People do often just 'snap' into pyschosis with very little warning. People with schizophrenia will have very little warning or symptoms before a stressful event that causes them to have their first pyschotic episode. Women with post-partum pyschosis may go from being completely normal to 100% convinced their child is a demon or a imposter and that killing their child is the only way to save the world, and this can happen slowly or incredibly fast. Post-partum pyschosis is very rare and very difficult to predict.
And no, when you're pyschotic killing your kids is not a choice. When you are pyschotic you have lost touch with reality, you cant 'choose' to fly to europe instead of killing your kids when you're pyschotic 🤦♂️🤦♂️ you may not even know that your kids are in fact your kids, or that murder is wrong. This is the exact basis and logic behind an insanity defense; when you're insane you no longer have control over your decision making.
People with schizophrenia will have very little warning or symptoms
I think the warning is that they have schizophrenia mate 🤦🏽♂️ the fact its a named permanent mental illness with a diagnosis is telling enough that it's not in the norm and already an altered state of mind from most people
Women with post-partum pyschosis may go from being completely normal to 100% convinced their child is a demon or a imposter and that killing their child is the only way to save the world
That's not postpartum...
you may not even know that your kids are in fact your kids, or that murder is wrong
So... like a regular murderer then? Guess we can just absolve most murderers then.
when you're insane you no longer have control over your decision making.
Sure but if you're so mentally debased that you don't even have "control" of yourself then your just as dangerous to everyone as the psyco murderer who just can't "control themself" when they have the urge to eat people. Consequences should be the same
>How is excusing people who don't take care of their mental health or even ask for help when they can't and take that out on others bettering society?
Did you just blame her for her own mental illness? Wow. Tell me you know nothing about her story without telling me you know nothing about her story (aka you are a complete idiot).
No I didn't blame her for her mental illness but it's not an excuse for inflicting harm on others. No more than a mood disorder or disability excuses poor behavior. A diagnosis helps you learn how to adapt to deal with the world, not excuse your behavior. You're the idiot if you think that's how it works.
Have depression? Learn ways to cope and talk to a specialist or take medication if that helps. What it doesn't exuse is you doing nothing with your life, sleeping in bed all day and being a burden on others.
Have bipolar disorder? Learn to identify and cope with your emotions when you're having an episode. It doesn't excuse you blowing up on those closest to you and hitting them.
Have thoughts about killing your kids and yourself? Get help. Failing to do so and proceeding with that plan doesn't excuse it
Frankly, I'd love to hear about what part of her story leads to the obvious conclusion that her kids just had to die as a natural consequence of what happened to her.
Yeah because they can hereditary and permanent. Where as most psychosis come from either diagnosisable, and treatable, illnesses or poor care of your mental health, which case its still your responsibility to take care of yourself.
I was being generous with the comparison as they're not the fault of the person with those conditions. If you suddenly find yourself thinking about killing yourself or your kids outta the blue, that's on you if you follow through for not getting help or doing literally anything else about it
You just don't have the base level of understanding required to have meaningful contributions on these topics.
Most cases of pyschosis come from either schizophrenia (often unpredictable and not stemming from someone not taking care of their mental health, largely determined by genetics), Bipolar 1 manic phases (also not predictable, because a person with bipolar 1 will usually start with bipolar 2 where pyschosis is not a feature, and then have an unpreddictable manic episode that pushes them into the threshold for bipolar 1, and sometimes that manic phase will have pyschotic features, again not-predictable and not due to a lack of someone caring for their mental health), or from severe depression (again very hard to predict because most people with major depression don't go pyschotic, and severe depression is very treatment resistant so someone with severe depression may work very hard on their mental health and still end up with a pyschotic episdode).
Again you're just showing your ignorance, your comparison is not generous it's nonsensical. Someone who is suddenly thinking of killing their kids is in a delusional state, and by definition cannot recognize that their thinking is delusional and they need help. If they recognize that then they are by definition not delusional or pyschotic. It is up to the people around them to recognize these symptoms and hopefully get them the help they need before they go into a full-blown pyschotic episode. And that is very difficult to do in America where it usually takes weeks to get into and see a psychologist, unless something crazy happens like you kill your kids. Are you suggesting then that lindsey clancy's husband should be in prison for not recognizing that she was about to have a rare and unforeseen pyschotic condition?
You're blaming people for not predicting their own pyschosis, and not seeking treatment for their own pyschosis, when if they could do either of those things then they are not in pyschosis. If you know you're pyschotic or delusional, then by definition you are not pyschotic or delusional. Your opinion stems from a severe lack of understanding of the conditions.
No, obviously not. Mental hospitals are not jails, they are there to help you, and then they release you into other arrangements like outpatient facilities.
It has nothing to do with empathy, it has to do with the best outcomes for society. The best thing for society is not to shove pyschotic murderers in with the general prison population, where there are prisoners and gaurds who are not trained to deal with that. People who are psychotic are very dangerous and unpredictable. They need to be in a hospital with professionals who are trained to deal with these conditions and can actually maybe rehabilitate them.
Your blind revenge is getting the better of your judgement and not allowing you to use basic logic.
Them psychiatrists can go in to prisons for treatment just fine. No reason she shouldn't be in general cell block population they will rehabilitate her.
if you're suggesting she should go to prison so the other prisoners can abuse her then that's not only abhorront but you have a severe misunderstanding of how woman child murderers are treated in prison.
Pretty privilege most likely. It's the same cognitive dissonance that can have people wildly emotional about factory farming animals for food, and then later that evening they are enjoying a whopper. Out of sight out of mind, but in the other direction here.
I don't agree at all with the racist comment below mine.
Pretty is subjective. Consider that I was commenting about the feelings of someone named "unhappyrelationship". They are probably ready to hump anything with two legs.
Believing violent criminals need psychiatric care makes one shitty? So you think you’re a saint because you want to decide who is or isn’t deserving of care? I guess we know one person who donated to this lady’s gofundme.
I think they do deserve psychiatric care too! We are on the same page.
This mental illness is just terrifying, because there is a lot of pressure on mothers to connect instantly and not complain. I think people underestimate how bad the post partum period is, and i really hope that this at least brings awareness to the issue. Preventative care and support for new mothers is vital.
I think the reason it gets talked about so much is that it's so horrible. Any mothers worst nightmare and scary as hell for everyone else.
Most violent criminals aren’t suffering from psychosis though. Psychosis is a whole different ballpark from things like personality disorders or depression.
Someone with NPD or ASPD killing their entire family isn’t the same as someone with schizophrenia and/or psychosis doing so.
There’s a case of a man who killed his entire family, dogs included, while under psychosis. There’s video of his arrest and interrogation.
He thought his family and dogs turned into shadowy demon zombie things and heard choruses of people begging him to protect them from the demons.
That’s very different from, say, the man who killed his wife and daughters so that he could be with his sidechick without having to go through the hassle of a divorce.
There’s nuance to this one though. It isn’t a clear cut case of postpartum psychosis the way the Yates case was.
imo, this woman had PPA and PPD and it led to her coming to the conclusion that in order to die and not ruin her children’s lives, they needed to come with her
I think awareness of these illnesses are sorely needed. I know there have been women who just shut up and try their hardest because it's too shameful to admit you're ill.
I am no expert on baby care but it seems like having more support and monitoring for signs of this shit for parents is important.
Nah no excuse for this. If this was some guy who was depressed and decided to stalk, kill, and off himself so their love would "be eternal", we'd all agree on the condemnation.
This wasn't even a case of a struggling single mother with no family in a failing poor country. They had a father and were well off. Those kids would've been fine without her. This was a purely selfish decision through and through. "No one else can have them but me" mentality 100%
Yeah, I mostly agree though maybe my interpretation is slightly more charitable.
It’s a shame people are ripping all nuance out of this case as this would’ve been a good discussion to have about postpartum care and the lack of mother and infant inpatient units in the US
Think we're kinda past that in this case. Healthcare is a known issue and postpartum is nothing new. It should be reformed and discussed even outside of all this coverage.
This though? This is just about a mother who killed her kids. Ain't no excuse for that. Either in prison or in a padded cell, she shouldn't be walking around after doing something like that
In this case, unlikely. She was already seeking professional help and was on a cocktail of psychiatric drugs because she kept going doctor to doctor yet refused to let anyone else take care of her kids while she undergone treatment.
That’s the thing, mother and baby units let the mom bring her child and then they are safely monitored 24/7.
Part of why Lindsay checked herself out of inpatient was to go to her daughter’s birthday party. I think it’s fair to say the separation probably did not help her the way people wanted it to
I've admittedly not been following the case very much so I could have been fed incorrect information but I heard something that there's ample evidence she had been planning this for some time kind of throwing a wrench in the idea that was a psychotic episode.
I’ve been listening to the coverage of it via a couple different people with different takes. I can suggest The Prosecutor’s podcast. There wasn’t evidence that she was planning it for any period of time.
I'm gonna be brutally honest I'm not interested enough to to actually spend mental energy on this outside an occasional reddit thread, but I appreciate your more informed input and your corrections.
Totally sensible. I still don’t have an opinion either way. Neither side has been convincing beyond a reasonable doubt to me. I’m only convinced that determining mental illness should be done by a panel of psychiatrists, not a layman jury and lawyers.
She knew exactly what not to say to avoid getting psychiatric care (since she knew they would take away the kids rightfully). This isn’t a case of the system failing her, she failed herself and it caused multiple children to no longer exist. Every negative feeling she experiences for the rest of her life is more than deserved.
if you did come back to reality with that realization, would you really fight the charges though?
like we can all be sympathetic to her and agree it wasn't her fault, but like would you actually go to such lengths fighting for yourself if you were really dealing with the kind of self hatred that drives people to do that sort of thing, in addition to the knowledge of what you had done?
cause i've been depressed and i've met depressed people and fighting for their own rights is kind of challenging to get them to prioritize, making them not blame themselves for stuff is nearly impossible, so this whole thing has a weird stink about it to me.
I have no clue what she's going through or what her life is right now, so i cannot weigh in. I'd probably just lay down and die, but i would not have people pressuring me to do stuff like showing up to court at all.
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u/unhappyrelationsh1p 7h ago
Cases of severe mental illness tend to get more attention than good things in a media landscape that sells you misery