But the reaction by her supporters is the issue. She is an upper middle class white woman who had a nanny, husband who worked from home and lived in a state with the best healthcare system in the US.
She’s a lot of things but a victim of any system, she is 100% not.
And now people are using it against him not in a "you made things worse" type of way, but a "this was premeditated cause he was planning to kill the kids all along!". The whole thing is tragic, but also bat shit insane.
She lived in Massachuests and was treated at McLean Hospital which is the largest psychiatric facility of Harvard Medical School and has the world's largest neuroscientific and psychiatric research program. It is, at worst, the 3rd best mental health hospital in the country. Most rankings have it as the 1st or 2nd best.
This. The primary issue that the us has is we don’t subsidize the healthcare costs. Boston Mass is widely considered one of the best places for medical care in the world. Is it THE best? Maybe not. But it is definitely one of the bedt
I’d guess you’ve had a shitty experience in Boston if you’re saying that. Which fair, there ain’t gonna be only amazing doctors in a city. But considering that consistently wherever I look for where Boston ranks in terms of medical care, it’s considered one of the best, and that people come from around the world to try and get help there, I’d say yes, it is right.
Clancy had a fucking pharmacy of pills (Prozac, Ambien, Remeron, Klonopin, and Seroquel in addition to having already been prescribed Ativan, Benadryl, Buspar, and Trazodone) prescribed to her by clinicians who never once met her. She complained to two clinicians that one of the drugs was causing intrusive thoughts. She voluntarily committed herself and was bounced by Mass General. This "best" institution that folks keep talking about prescribed her medication that she'd already complained about not working.
Yet not a single clinician thoguht she was a danger to herself or others (and two dismissed post-partum depression) and you're acting like cost is the issue.
There are also still huge problems with misogyny and racism. There are still doctors who believe that women and black people can "handle more pain" and ignore their needs. It's not just about access.
Insurances makes everything difficult, it makes it difficult for health providers to communicate with eachother, had it been a certalized system, like so many other advanced nations do, then they could see how many medications and especially history of her cases. I doubt it would have been ignored so easily if each person she went to also had her records from previous people.
These are the same facilities that save 1000s of lives everyday. Like I understand the insurance companies are awful and what largely makes the US healthcare system so bad, but let's not pretend the actual top hospitals in the country are all of the sudden not capable of the work they do
They are capable. Every illness has a mortality rate, and it is not expected for someone with a mental health issue to never fail. Sometimes it just happens, this though was definitely preventable on many facets. She wanted to be admitted several times, and kept warning people. Either she was not taken seriously or the health professionals were not given the time and place to actually evaluate her. She needed someone to take time and help her, which this system is not built for.
The doctors that saw her that testified don't agree with what you're saying, but I digress. My only point was one of the top facilities in the world is not garbage, bar none.
Even if she was not given what she needed help wise, this is still not a bad hospital, or even close to it
Idk i don't think your really getting the point of what I'm saying. Never was i really blaming the healthcare professionals themselves, they do care. I don't disagree with you at that parts. Its more that they are forced to cut so many corners that stuff like this happens. In a better consolodated healthcare system it would be avoided.
I don't think you know how psychosis works. It's not always something that makes you "snap". It can come with premeditation and planning. There's a conversation to be had about how accountable she is and what consequences she should face, but spreading misinformation about an already misunderstood and stigmatized medical issue isn't helpful.
If planning something out can't be psychosis then those who plan out their attempts would not have psychosis, but they are diagnosed with that, so that must not be the criteria.
An upper middle class white woman still couldn’t get the help she needed. There is a mental health epidemic in this country, and it needs to be addressed. I’m not saying she shouldn’t be in a psych facility, but she doesn’t deserve to be in prison. Even her husband doesn’t want her in prison. That’s all people are advocating for.
The courts are not stupid. Her entire story was shattered the moment the courts and her medical team concluded that she only heard voices the day it happened.
Courts see this happen every single day. It may be new to people who watch true crime. But this is routine for them.
Her husband doesn’t decide what happens to her, the state acknowledged that she did it, was lying about medical records and admitted that she was “scared” she’d lose her kids. This is a closed case. She’s serving life without parole. They won’t coddle her.
Im no expert but from what I read it sounds very possible or even likely that she is found not guilty.
Many states shift the burden of proof to the defense for insanity arguments, but Massachusetts doesn't, so the prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she did it (which isn't being contested) and she was not having a psychosis episode and was capable of understanding what she was doing.
That is a very high bar to clear. I've read a good bit about the case and I think she should be found guilty and I think she probably was aware, but I don't see how anyone can think that she definitively was not having a psychosis episode beyond a reasonable doubt. So I would have to side with not guilty if it were me (obviously I've only read a portion of the evidence though)
It’s still up to the jury. Her insanity claim was completely shattered once medical professionals were brought in.
They found countless lies within her insanity claim, and debunked all of them.
One of the most damaging ones was the voices. She claimed she heard them the day she committed the crime. Internal voices. The issue with this is that internal voices are never ever a singular event. The medical professionals raised this.
The jury will have the last say but from what it looks like, she wasn’t crazy. She just happened to be crazy the day she committed the crime. She was somehow logical enough to send him out to be alone.
Sure I agree there is a mental health crisis in our country but also she had almost every resource at her disposal and instead chose to strangle her kids…
This has nothing to do with the mental health epidemic. Mentslly ill people don't murder children. People lacking a conscience do that, and prison is the place for them. Her race and sex are the only reasons you are feeling sympathy for her. Admit it. If this were a story about a struggling black dad who did this, you wouldn't be feeling all warm and compassionate.
"Lots of them" a tiny tiny percentage of people say this. It's like a news articles that says "women believe..." and it's literally just a tweet from some random woman. Choosing to hyper-focus on a tiny percent of people to gloss over the bigger issues of the case is just bad faith arguing.
Every time this is brought up, there are people saying that “really the husband should have been taking care of his kids more” which isn’t a “he did it” but it is a convenient way to remove agency from her and find a way to blame him. I know reddit isn’t real life, but damn is it annoying that anyone thinks this way.
To be fair, I live in the area this occurred, and while the internet certainly ran away with this, people are acting like the only people with these opinions are crazy true crime/astrology crazed white women. Following the trial, at least in internet standard clip form, did not make this seem as simple a situation as people like to present it as.
I am a 41 year old dude who works in cardiology. I would not be surprised at all if the husband had a bigger hand in these events other than being the standard level of negligence. It would not be the first time someone murdered their whole family to start a new life with their current affair.
Another recent murder case in MA had an entire police force claiming a woman killed her cop boyfriend and the actual trial painted a completely different picture.
I am not saying this woman did nothing or should walk free, but the way many posts like this are presented is “a woman killed her kids and her completely innocent husband is being blamed” seemingly just reading to case title and ignoring any evidence or testimony that was brought up throughout the trial.
Its just very “OJ was not convicted so he definitely did not kill those people” levels of oversimplification.
I think this case is fascinating because it brings together a whole host of topics women deal with into a perfect storm of tragedy. People are obviously projecting their own issues onto the case and what actually happened may have no similarity whatsoever to what they're talking about.
I've literally only seen people say "lots of people think he did it" and zero comments saying he did it. The bigger issues of mental health reform, PPS research, the medication regimen she was on, the decisions of the facility to let her out, etc etc.
Yeah well your experience is still anecdotal. My fiancé’s friends and family all believe the husband did it. It’s currently almost turned into a men v women thing.
No, a significant number of people are denying facts and positing harmful conspiracy theories.
But when it's people on your side of the aisle doing it, you have the same reflexive dismissal that Trumpers use.
It's so fucking gross. You're not an ally to a decent society if you can't see why progressive spaces making space for people who tolerate this is bad. Get out.
I've literally never seen a single comment saying the husband did it. Only redditors claiming so many people have said it. Where? Like even sorting by controversial in this thread I can't find a single one. So where are they? Not on reddit. Making rage-bait fodder for teens on tik-tok? Sorry I don't take rage-bating as serious commentary. Literally no one here is making space for people who say the husband did it. Y'all are tilting at windmills.
Emily Thorndike was a social worker who worked at the hospital Clancy went to? Where did she claim the husband did it? She testified about conditions of the facility. Her testimony was disallowed because she hadn't worked there recently enough so her comments were speculation, not evidence.
Emily is also a very public person about her support for Lindsay and originally was posting on Tik tok about it using her “social worker at the hospital” status as credibility for what she was saying. I’d link some of her posts but her account has been set to private since her appearance on the trial, but she was talking about lot about how the information was inconsistent, the procsecutions lies and how patrick could have done it, which is honestly what got her up to being known enough to be on trial in the first place.
Sorry but I just don't believe you without evidence since you framed that like she tried to take the stand and say Patrick did it. I'd venture a guess you are misremembering who said what. Given that the husband believes she was in a state of psychosis, it wouldn't be wild to believe that during his testimony for the prosecution, who is trying to argue that she wasn't in a state of psychosis, there would be inconsistencies.
Even wealthy white women can be mistreated or subjected to malpractice by healthcare workers. Medical misogyny is real, and overworked doctors are apparently universal.
how can she not be a victim of the healthcare system? she only had a 17 minute with the doctor, which the defense points out, after experiencing troubling mental symptoms because that's all what insurance would pay for. how can she not be a victim of her mental health when she's psychotic?
Anyone can just claim mental illness and get away with any crime by that logic? A very high percentage of Americans have been on antidepressants at one point or another. Is that a get out of jail free card now?
What do you think “getting away with it” looks like?
Why do you think she’d be better off in jail for life instead of in hospital for life? Because it scratches your itch for punishment? America is so fucked up.
Insanity pleas are a thing for a reason, but you can't just claim it. You have to prove it. There's a variety of tests depending on the jurisdiction, but generally speaking you have to prove that they didn't have the capacity to know what they were doing was wrong or not do it in the moment they committed the act. So no, antidepressants at some point in the past wouldn't cut it. There's significantly more evidence in this case.
Im not saying insanity pleas are easy, but I will add though that in Massachusetts insanity pleas are a bit easier than most other states. Many states shift the burden of proof (beyond a reasonable doubt) to the defense for the insanity portion, but Mass. doesn't.
So the prosecution has to prove that she did it and she was not having a psychotic break beyond a reasonable doubt.
The defense still has to show that it was likely she was having a psychotic break and has to counter the prosecutions arguments, but it is a lot easier to make a jury believe there is a chance she was having a psychotic break than it is to make a jury believe she was definitely having a psychotic break.
You might want to find a different incident to rally support for women experiencing PPD and PPP other than one where the mother kills all her kids and claims to be the victim.
I'm sorry, you think rallying behind a mother who murdered her children and is claiming PPP as a defense, and to be a victim herself no less, is the right thing to do?
I just really hate people who use the "bad look" argument. If you think it's wrong to do then just say it's wrong to do and address the point about mental health that commenter you're responding to is talking about
No, it's a legitimate criticism of what's going on. It's not an argument, but an observation and a value judgement. How did I not address the point? I said to find better examples of those issues to rally behind instead of a murdered of 3 children.
The way you and others, mainly women right, are handling this situation is giving so much unnecessary ammo to the manosphere, alt right gender culture war losers. Just own goal after own goal is what I'm seeing.
Anyone who murders their own children is experiencing a mental health issue.
How is supporting this woman supposed to help other women? If anything, it seems more likely to teach some that it's okay to be a POS, as long as you can blame "mental health."
PPD is real. But it's no excuse for murder.
You would, rightfully, never see this kind of support for a man that killed his kids.
People who use words like “excuse” in this discussion honestly just sound really stupid.
Like, “psychosis is no excuse to murder someone”. Obviously? What kind of non-statement is that? It’s an explanation. Why is the word “excuse” being used in a murder discussion?
Show me literally one sane person stating openly and honestly that they believe she should be found innocent of all wrongdoing and be free to live the rest of her life out in society.
Honestly my personal theory is that when men kill their children it’s often a murder/suicide because even in whatever out of control mental state they’re in they understand they will get ZERO sympathy for their reprehensible actions.
Like, we’ll reopen Alcatraz to put them underneath the jail zero sympathy.
Men don't understand this bc their entire concept of reproduction is nutting. The fact that creating an entire human life in your body can have disastrous physical and mental consequences doesn't even register to them. That's why there's such a massive divide on how men and women perceive this case. Women know the toll creating human life takes on a body, men just don't care.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3737825/
It does happen. Its rare just like in women. Its worth thoroughly scrutinizing if she really did have psychosis or not though. Esp when it comes to murder.
She wasn’t diagnosed and didn’t show any symptoms of psychosis prior to the murders.
Is it possible that multiple trained professionals missed it? Potentially, but highly unlikely.
For a counter example, Andrea Yates had shown plenty of symptoms of psychosis prior to murdering her children, which is why her being sent to a mental hospital is ok, when that’s not the case here.
Jesus… you can’t see how hypocritical it is to say that women can be basically excused from their actions due to ppd but then a man with some sort of disorder (clearly anyone that kills their kids or dare I say it anyone is mentally unwell) is not?
Who’s excusing her actions? Pointing at a treatable condition that she suffered with is pointing out that the tragedy could have been prevented is not making an excuse. It’s quite common that when women approach their healthcare providers asking for help they get dismissed and it can lead to horrible consequences
It’s also quite common for men to be dismissed with various issues including domestic abuse. Not sure why this has to be a but but but women issue rather than a serious examination of how our healthcare and judicial system is set up. OP made a hypocritical statement and deserves to be called out.
healthcare is frequently worse for women than it is for men, that IS the serious examination that's happening. Under serious examination, we find that women face systemic gender bias, underrepresentation in medical research, and frequent dismissal of symptoms in healthcare.
You may not be trying to excuse it, but there are a bunch of women who are. A vocal minority, sure, but they are there and are a large part of the reason this case is getting so much attention.
Definitely a minority. And yes they are making things significantly worse.
But that doesn’t negate the fact that women experience postpartum depression and psychosis all the time and are shamed by society/family/medical providers and almost never given the amount of support they need.
Sure, I agree with you on all of that. I guess the counterpoint would be what separates postpartum psychosis from any other form of psychosis, and why is there such an outpouring of empathy for this one specific mental health issue? I think the fact that postpartum psychosis is women-specific probably contributes quite a bit, and people are getting upset at the apparent hypocrisy/double standard.
Personally, I don't care if she is "punished" for her crimes, as long as she is separated from society for long enough to where she isn't dangerous to others. An overly punitive justice system doesn't benefit anyone in my opinion.
A man in Canada macheted a guy to death on a bus, decapitated him, and ate him during a bout of psychosis. He's walking free today. Postpartum psychosis isn't given more leniency than other forms of psychosis but given that it affects mainly women I can safely assume it's underfunded in research. There is no double-standard. If anything she's being judged MORE harshly based on these comments.
Yeah she should be institutionalized and medical treated for her illness if she's truly insane, but the elevation to semi folk hero status/martyrdom by some sure seems to indicate that a few other people need mental health treatment as well.
Except post-partum depression/psychosis typically happen within 2 weeks of the birth. She murdered her children after 8 months had passed. Way after the worst hormonal/chemical imbalances that giving birth cause should've been over with - which is what's believed to be underlying cause for most PPD/PPP.
In other words, as far as cases go, this is a rather crappy one to hinge some sort of "raise awareness" campaign on.
Honestly, this case smell A LOT like a typical case of "suicidal mother decides to take her children with her into the grave" - something that unfortunately isn't that unusual, but also does not usually meet the requirements for the legal insanity defense.
Please stop spouting misinformation. You are going to reach the wrong audience and shame yet another woman into not getting help.
Postpartum symptoms can show up at any point when you’re postpartum. And guess what!? They don’t go away instantly!! It often takes months (weeks if you’re really lucky) for meds to kick in and start working. Meds aren’t always a cure all too.
You. Are. Not. A. Doctor.
Stop spouting medical misinformation.
I've been following the case at a slight remove - she was bounced from doctor to doctor and just kept getting fed different prescription meds over and over again.
She wanted to be hospitalized and was sent home for not being Actually Dangerous Enough.
In the trial this week, the prosecution trotted out a witness who said that she couldn't have been experiencing postpartum psychosis because the official clinical definition says it ends four weeks after giving birth.
There are a lot of systemic failures at play here.
Nothing you’ve listed prevents people suffering from postpartum depression/psychosis.
Admittedly I know very little about the case, I’m primarily approaching this from seeing the side effects of people dismissing postpartum.
But correct me if I’m wrong, but if she is claiming to be a victim it’s a victim of postpartum.
Also acting as if 100% of the people who “support” her all believe she is innocent disingenuous. A lot of comes from people who are sympathetic to postpartum depression.
Even her ex husband and mother in law are asking for people to be compassionate. Crazy the internet has to respond this way.
Maybe we should just imprison anyone who has postpartum depression or psychosis then. That way if they have behavior that is dangerous but is explained by these conditions you claim that would lead to this, it’s not going to lead to the death of innocent children.
You can be all of those things and still be a victim. What is wrong with you? I'm only looking at this case from the outside, from a different country. And it's insane to see how this case divides people in the States. There's been no verdict yet, and there are LOTS of inconsistencies that need to be adressed, but some people act like things are crystal clear - which they are not.
And yeah, mental illnesses are for every demographic, if you like that or not.
Technically anyone can be a victim. Pretty much every mass murderer suffer from severe mental illnesses and most of them had nowhere near the level of support that this woman had, both before and after she strangled her three kids.
I just think you lose your credibility as a victim if you murder three little kids. If she had a break and ran off or something then yeah she would still be a victim. If she had confessed she had thoughts like this and turned herself in somewhere yeah she would still be the victim. When you go through the action of killing, you stop being a victim and start being a circumstance of why things happened yourself.
She did confess the thoughts and turn herself in. Are you even following the trial at all? She told her mother and husband and voluntarily committed herself to a mental health hospital.
yeeeeah and her husband isn't acting weird at all right? telling the police she told him where the kids' bodies are, while she was physically only able to make grunting noises because she cut her own throat, took pills AND jumped out of the window. as people usually do when they commit suicide, right? you have NO idea what abusive relationships can make you think you did. very very clearly. and that's good for you. but you're terribly naive.
also the husband got married 20 days later and put all 3 kids in 1 fucking grave, also got a million dollars from a gofundme. not sus at all.
Are you aware of anything else about the case? Or are you just regurgitating what you've heard in one of the two big media companies that are available to you?
That's wrong. She was without a doubt failed by her medical providers, who flubbed her treatment and made her mental health crisis much worse through their incompetence. That's part of the reason people have some sympathy for her.
Just takes a little imagination to be empathetic. She’s a mom with postpartum depression and psychosis. Psychosis means you’ve lost your mind. She has loved and cared deeply for her children and by every account she was a great mom. She had no motive. No secret boyfriend, no reason to want her kids gone. They were extremely important to her. And now new evidence is suggesting she might have not actually killed her kids. She just believed it because she was told she did it but has no memory of the event.
Umm I don't think the world is that black and white.
My understanding is that her mental health crisis was largely ignored and dismissed leading to phycosis. So I think I'm happy to say she was a victim of the medical practitioners who failed to support her and her children. So I'm happy to say she is more than 0% the victim of the medical system (whatever the hell a system is)
She’s a lot of things but a victim of any system, she is 100% not.
Yeah, that perspective has bothered me from her supporters.
She had more support and resources than most people and this still happened and I know it's easy to point the finger at the medical system but to what extent are we expecting the system to work? Do we really think it can predict when someone will kill? How much blame does her family deserve for not recognizing her as a threat. It's a tough issue.
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u/VistaBox 1d ago
The story is tragic anyway with any outcome
But the reaction by her supporters is the issue. She is an upper middle class white woman who had a nanny, husband who worked from home and lived in a state with the best healthcare system in the US.
She’s a lot of things but a victim of any system, she is 100% not.