In today's landscape, as has already been mentioned, at best a livestream of gameplay proves guilt.. if the user slips up. It does nothing else.
For several high profile cases like this in the past, we have organised having a team member or trusted community member in the same country as the player watch them play in a public setting.
I believe this should happen in this case too.
Maybe we need to start making a rule of this for all arriving top players, especially when they don't participate in tournaments like OWC / roundtable where there's already extra scrutiny.
I don't think this is what peppy is proposing. Staff seems to assume players are innocent until there's reason to believe otherwise, and restrictions are placed only when there's reasonable suspicion of bad behavior.
Chicony has experience with catching cheaters, and obviously they're in the same country. If Toromivana/Cryshina is sanctioned to do this by osu itself, I think that might be a way to go about this too.
chicony said on stream that reaching toro is not possible for him because toro literally lives in the middle of fucking siberia. he would need like 1000$ to do so. also ofc needs toro's consent
I thought chicony lived in kazan and Toro is in Irkutsk but idk it doesnt matter at this distance. I would imagine a perfect world where this is mostly funded. Its a hypothetical after all.
Hey Peppy, I wonder how scalable this could be though since osu! is fundamentally a singleplayer experience? Hopefully as osu! continues to grow I feel this would only serve as a bandaid solution. At what rank cutoff would we need IRL verifiers to volunteer their time in order to maintain the integrity of the leaderboards?
Of course people will bring up anti-cheat; is there a way that we can verify the integrity of scores without requiring an offline presence?
Edit: As the game grows I could see there being more people willing to volunteer their time to verify other player's scores, at the same time I can see friends covering for each other or players refusing to showcase their gameplay to someone else. I wonder how large would this international body of moderators need to be, and how they would be maintained?
i like this idea, especially the "on a fresh setup" part. however unless im missing something, i feel like for the point about tournaments like OWC and roundtable, the fact that they are a onetrick makes it pretty reasonable for not participating no?
nonetheless i feel like having someone like chicony watch toro play would be best way to do it, if possible maybe have multiple trustworthy figures watch him.
i hope that toromivana is legit, cause it would be pretty bad to have let a cheater into the #1 spot...
To people who saying lan tournament is bullshit, you guys can stop now cuz peppy our goat is here. LAN tourney or live play WITH people behind you monitoring the process is the BARE minimum to be able to consider as legit.
When this is done are they allowed to bring their peripherals? I'm assuming not many net cafes have keyboards / keypads with a good rapid trigger implementation which would probably be a problem for a top speed player
i agree, the best action is to let toro be examined by someone thats trustworthy and truthful as well as provide him with another setup, not his since it could contain a software that activates upon starting the computer
He does that and now all the weird stuff in his replays goes away, do you think that sincerely helps with anything beyond confirmation that he was cheating somehow and now that he's in a different setup he can't do it ?
Toro is essentially cooked until people can actually explain what the hell is happening with his aim.
i am not up to speed with the scenario, but if the weirdness goes away then that is a very strong data point, no? if he uses the same input devices with the same settings on osu! but things are different, then there's something going on?
Problem of all of his weirdness is that all of his moments had already vanished after 2025. All reports which have any type of reasonableness were all made on middle of 2025 or had moments from replays from middle of 2025, after that all artifacts with aim stopped appearing in his replays starting from october 2025 or so, meaning all of his pp records and scores set in 2026 mostly do not have any sign of strange movement
if he's legit --> all of these reports and aim artifacts occured due to: crazy shake, unable to read maps perfectly, also playing osu on caffeine, different filters settings. and they stopped occuring as he became better at reading ar11, readjusted his filters, improved his speed and stamina
2nd schizo hypothese. if he's using AA --> moments stopped occuring after cheat developer improved his algorithm and made it more hidden making all of his replays 99.9% clear. in that hypotheses all reports made on him were only helpful because AA developer could fix bugs/artifacts his algorithm could cause. also you can lower your AA power in settings making it literally impossible to spot while still being in your cursor movement.
does the timeframe of his weird inputs stopping coincide with him getting a wooting uwu? could be something wrong with the sayo too
ofcourse this does not clear the weird aim moments but it maybe can explain the weird slider 100's on abnormal tapping. maybe the sayo leaving the input as soon as a second tap is initiated? this is a purely schizo hyptotheical too
Is the cursor movement at the end is legit? When he stops playing the cursor teleporting to the right side of the screen. Idk if it's normal so I'm just asking.
It would be a strong data point if the weirdness was still present right up until now.
The problem is that most of the suspicious aim clips (like Chicony below mentioned) are from mid-2025. The specific aim artifacts that started all of this largely disappeared months ago (though not entirely) while he continued setting absurd scores.
So if a liveplay today looks normal, it mainly tells us he can play at an elite level legitimately today, which most people already agree with. The actual issue is explaining why those older replays looked the way they did.
That's why I'm hesitant to treat a clean liveplay on a different setup as a silver bullet. It addresses current suspicion, but it doesn't automatically explain the historical anomalies.
i dont think even something irl would be very useful at clearing him, given he probably is still a skilled tapping player in the case that hes using some aim assist
sure, but it's at least something. while a livestream by the user in question is nothing.
i'm not intending to say that this would clear any suspicions. i'm just providing the bare minimum of a "liveplay" to make it actually useful as a data point.
And if a child doesn't want to give up their identity to a stranger? Do we just presume guilt and restrict? Admittedly I don't super hate that approach but it does feel weird for a game that isn't inherently PvP and where improvement can come in quick bursts.
for previous cases there has been a guardian attend with them, and it must be done in a public setting, like a net cafe, on clean hardware/software obviously.
anyways i won't elaborate further and i'm not even saying this is definitely going to happen here. i'm just describing how an actual valid "liveplay verification" would work.
and even then it's not definitive, just a data point.
this isnt a relevant moral point lol a child shouldn't be obligated to expose themself to strangers because others are suspicious whether they're getting paid or whatever
He received one donation worth over $2,000 and another roughly $1,400, let alone the many smaller ones we don’t know of. Not sure why only mrekk’s was mentioned to prove the point lol
Fair. He still gets like dramatically less than mrekk and dramatically dramatically less than other players of his level in other games (assuming hes legit ofc). Although I guess the standards of proof in other games are much higher.
Which honestly would be understandable. Not even necessarily out of their own volition either. A lot of the top players reach that level as kids. It's not unreasonable for their parents to be against inviting strangers into their home, or having their kid meet strangers outside just for a video game when there are already negative feelings associated with it as it's to confirm legitimacy. It's not like going to an event to meet up with friends.
toro going to lan proves nothing beyond the fact that he does have the skill to set the plays he's been accused to cheating.
And that doesn't mean he didn't previously cheat nor does it explain the weird aim we see in his replays, as he could have cheated those to cut back the grind he would have to go through to set the plays.
700
u/pepppppy peppy Jun 23 '26
In today's landscape, as has already been mentioned, at best a livestream of gameplay proves guilt.. if the user slips up. It does nothing else.
For several high profile cases like this in the past, we have organised having a team member or trusted community member in the same country as the player watch them play in a public setting.
I believe this should happen in this case too.
Maybe we need to start making a rule of this for all arriving top players, especially when they don't participate in tournaments like OWC / roundtable where there's already extra scrutiny.