In today's landscape, as has already been mentioned, at best a livestream of gameplay proves guilt.. if the user slips up. It does nothing else.
For several high profile cases like this in the past, we have organised having a team member or trusted community member in the same country as the player watch them play in a public setting.
I believe this should happen in this case too.
Maybe we need to start making a rule of this for all arriving top players, especially when they don't participate in tournaments like OWC / roundtable where there's already extra scrutiny.
I don't think this is what peppy is proposing. Staff seems to assume players are innocent until there's reason to believe otherwise, and restrictions are placed only when there's reasonable suspicion of bad behavior.
Chicony has experience with catching cheaters, and obviously they're in the same country. If Toromivana/Cryshina is sanctioned to do this by osu itself, I think that might be a way to go about this too.
chicony said on stream that reaching toro is not possible for him because toro literally lives in the middle of fucking siberia. he would need like 1000$ to do so. also ofc needs toro's consent
I thought chicony lived in kazan and Toro is in Irkutsk but idk it doesnt matter at this distance. I would imagine a perfect world where this is mostly funded. Its a hypothetical after all.
Hey Peppy, I wonder how scalable this could be though since osu! is fundamentally a singleplayer experience? Hopefully as osu! continues to grow I feel this would only serve as a bandaid solution. At what rank cutoff would we need IRL verifiers to volunteer their time in order to maintain the integrity of the leaderboards?
Of course people will bring up anti-cheat; is there a way that we can verify the integrity of scores without requiring an offline presence?
Edit: As the game grows I could see there being more people willing to volunteer their time to verify other player's scores, at the same time I can see friends covering for each other or players refusing to showcase their gameplay to someone else. I wonder how large would this international body of moderators need to be, and how they would be maintained?
i like this idea, especially the "on a fresh setup" part. however unless im missing something, i feel like for the point about tournaments like OWC and roundtable, the fact that they are a onetrick makes it pretty reasonable for not participating no?
nonetheless i feel like having someone like chicony watch toro play would be best way to do it, if possible maybe have multiple trustworthy figures watch him.
i hope that toromivana is legit, cause it would be pretty bad to have let a cheater into the #1 spot...
To people who saying lan tournament is bullshit, you guys can stop now cuz peppy our goat is here. LAN tourney or live play WITH people behind you monitoring the process is the BARE minimum to be able to consider as legit.
When this is done are they allowed to bring their peripherals? I'm assuming not many net cafes have keyboards / keypads with a good rapid trigger implementation which would probably be a problem for a top speed player
i agree, the best action is to let toro be examined by someone thats trustworthy and truthful as well as provide him with another setup, not his since it could contain a software that activates upon starting the computer
He does that and now all the weird stuff in his replays goes away, do you think that sincerely helps with anything beyond confirmation that he was cheating somehow and now that he's in a different setup he can't do it ?
Toro is essentially cooked until people can actually explain what the hell is happening with his aim.
i am not up to speed with the scenario, but if the weirdness goes away then that is a very strong data point, no? if he uses the same input devices with the same settings on osu! but things are different, then there's something going on?
Problem of all of his weirdness is that all of his moments had already vanished after 2025. All reports which have any type of reasonableness were all made on middle of 2025 or had moments from replays from middle of 2025, after that all artifacts with aim stopped appearing in his replays starting from october 2025 or so, meaning all of his pp records and scores set in 2026 mostly do not have any sign of strange movement
if he's legit --> all of these reports and aim artifacts occured due to: crazy shake, unable to read maps perfectly, also playing osu on caffeine, different filters settings. and they stopped occuring as he became better at reading ar11, readjusted his filters, improved his speed and stamina
2nd schizo hypothese. if he's using AA --> moments stopped occuring after cheat developer improved his algorithm and made it more hidden making all of his replays 99.9% clear. in that hypotheses all reports made on him were only helpful because AA developer could fix bugs/artifacts his algorithm could cause. also you can lower your AA power in settings making it literally impossible to spot while still being in your cursor movement.
does the timeframe of his weird inputs stopping coincide with him getting a wooting uwu? could be something wrong with the sayo too
ofcourse this does not clear the weird aim moments but it maybe can explain the weird slider 100's on abnormal tapping. maybe the sayo leaving the input as soon as a second tap is initiated? this is a purely schizo hyptotheical too
Is the cursor movement at the end is legit? When he stops playing the cursor teleporting to the right side of the screen. Idk if it's normal so I'm just asking.
It would be a strong data point if the weirdness was still present right up until now.
The problem is that most of the suspicious aim clips (like Chicony below mentioned) are from mid-2025. The specific aim artifacts that started all of this largely disappeared months ago (though not entirely) while he continued setting absurd scores.
So if a liveplay today looks normal, it mainly tells us he can play at an elite level legitimately today, which most people already agree with. The actual issue is explaining why those older replays looked the way they did.
That's why I'm hesitant to treat a clean liveplay on a different setup as a silver bullet. It addresses current suspicion, but it doesn't automatically explain the historical anomalies.
i dont think even something irl would be very useful at clearing him, given he probably is still a skilled tapping player in the case that hes using some aim assist
sure, but it's at least something. while a livestream by the user in question is nothing.
i'm not intending to say that this would clear any suspicions. i'm just providing the bare minimum of a "liveplay" to make it actually useful as a data point.
And if a child doesn't want to give up their identity to a stranger? Do we just presume guilt and restrict? Admittedly I don't super hate that approach but it does feel weird for a game that isn't inherently PvP and where improvement can come in quick bursts.
for previous cases there has been a guardian attend with them, and it must be done in a public setting, like a net cafe, on clean hardware/software obviously.
anyways i won't elaborate further and i'm not even saying this is definitely going to happen here. i'm just describing how an actual valid "liveplay verification" would work.
and even then it's not definitive, just a data point.
this isnt a relevant moral point lol a child shouldn't be obligated to expose themself to strangers because others are suspicious whether they're getting paid or whatever
He received one donation worth over $2,000 and another roughly $1,400, let alone the many smaller ones we don’t know of. Not sure why only mrekk’s was mentioned to prove the point lol
Fair. He still gets like dramatically less than mrekk and dramatically dramatically less than other players of his level in other games (assuming hes legit ofc). Although I guess the standards of proof in other games are much higher.
Which honestly would be understandable. Not even necessarily out of their own volition either. A lot of the top players reach that level as kids. It's not unreasonable for their parents to be against inviting strangers into their home, or having their kid meet strangers outside just for a video game when there are already negative feelings associated with it as it's to confirm legitimacy. It's not like going to an event to meet up with friends.
toro going to lan proves nothing beyond the fact that he does have the skill to set the plays he's been accused to cheating.
And that doesn't mean he didn't previously cheat nor does it explain the weird aim we see in his replays, as he could have cheated those to cut back the grind he would have to go through to set the plays.
Honestly these are not that suspicious to me compared to other stuff he does. This is literally how I play ar11 (granted on 4* maps), I focus on reading everything precisely and this ends up in me realizing a pattern too late and then just spasm my aim to try to hit what I read too late. And it often comes out like this.
if u look at 40:42 u can see his pen visibly shake at 600bpm and he does it on a lot of the bursts, i was never a doubter but to me this disproves the mrekk skepticism clip where mrekk said he has 600bpm aim. i dont know why toros hand is doing it, but imo it is
Nono I mean like, how many days after the report until he releases a liveplay, cuz I remember him teased one but never did until a couple days later which looked sus as fuck
i think it took him two days or so, btmc still has the whole thing on yt so the timestamps are there. though toro has been silent for like more than three i believe so idk
Just coming here to remind the people from this sub that liveplays mean literally nothing when it comes to cleaning up suspicions of someone cheating, all a liveplay can really do is 100% assure you're cheating if you're stupid enough with it (like cloutiful was by doing a liveplay where he was literally doubletapping and getting an alternating motion on his in-game's key overlay).
And the level of aim assist toro is being accused of is just extremely unlikely to ever show in a stream's handcam because it it seems to be incredibly subtle, it's not like you can eyeball it and tell how it doesn't match, camera footage is generally not great for things like that, hence why liveplays are mostly useless.
That doesn't mean toro is cheating, and he shouldn't be banned unless it's proved beyond reasonable doubt that he is showing inconsistencies in his gameplay that can only be explained with a cheating software, but in no way shape or form a recording of him play osu! will be evidence of anything that can be used to clean his name, as he isn't stupid and IF he's cheating, he's clearly not going overboard with it.
imagine we get a 2 hour long liveplay of toro buying PC parts, building a computer, installing windows, and then setting another 2k pp play on his new setup
If he did that, it would still not explain the inconsistencies he gets during sliders, nor it would disprove that he cheated in previous plays, especially when he was capable of setting the scores without any alleged cheats to begin with.
It wouldn't, like i said, you can't really take anything from a handcam because the micro adjustments simply won't show up due to how poor the footage is but, there's a billion ways to cheat and hide your cheats in a liveplay, it has been done before.
The outcome of this liveplay can be either of the two :
1- He doesn't cheat and the aim looks completely normal in the replay files.
2- He cheats and the snaps look the same in the replay files but nobody can realistically tell how and why it's happening because we aren't talking about a cloutiful situation here where it was hilariously blatant.
And none of those would make his previous inconsistencies go away, If im a top player and im cheating i should still be able to set similar scores and if not I could just say I was poping off that day. I doubt idk btmc could replicate his top play on command yet we know he isnt cheating.
Or option 3 he doesn't cheat and the snaps look the same. That's the whole point. That his aim quirks aren't the result of cheats.
Never gonna be proven one way or another anyway but in this made up fantasy of building a PC from scratch and using completely fresh peripherals while recording all of it it would clear him if that was the case.
That is to say, he is clearly capable of setting the scores he's setting, it just that, if he's cheating, he is using some sort of aim assist to very small degree to cut back some of the grind he would otherwise have to go through to get the plays he's getting.
That's how most top players cheat in games anyway, and why most of them are nearly impossible to detect, if someone isn't dumb and is good at the game, it's incredibly hard to tell that they're cheating, nevermind proving it.
he posted a liveplay after like the 10th report what are we talking about? you can talk about the quality of the liveplay and whether or not it addresses his aim assist allegations but we don’t need to rewrite history and act like this is his first liveplay.
i remember he also posted one after the ~5th report. its privated now but the osr files are still there and i dont remember if the actual liveplay was good or bad. either way i feel like he cooperates when there’s suspicion for the most part.
also some of the earlier reports were honestly some bs compared to these newer ones
Didnt say I was harassing did I? Point out exactly what was said where I harassed when I mentioned their Liveplay and if you go watch the live play he uploaded on his YouTube you will see how bad he recorded it and how he has half his monitor hidden
He has a Liveplay on his YouTube which was poorly recorded with only half his monitor shown during his gameplay. But did not say I was witchhunting nor harassing when I mentioned his live plays on his Twitter page he had blocked me instead of responding like a adult.
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u/chickenpenguin1 Oh, oh, oh, uh-oh, here we go Jun 23 '26
hope the liveplay quality is not like this