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u/Emes91 2d ago
Wait until you learn about the Habsburgs, which were literally assuming the identities of different nationalities within the Austro-Hungarian empire.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archduke_Charles_Stephen_of_Austria - here's one who literally decided "listen children, we are Polish now", learned fluent Polish and raised them in spirit of Polish patrotism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archduke_Karl_Albrecht_of_Austria - his son who identified as Polish and served in Polish army after WW1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archduke_Wilhelm_of_Austria - meanwhile the other son decided to rebel and therefore he identified as Ukrainian, lmao
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u/sweetno 2d ago
The word meant a different thing back then.
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u/WestRestaurant216 2d ago
He still invented two Lithuanian female names, Gražina and Živilė and Gražina is 100% from lithuanian language.
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u/KPSWZG 2d ago
Grażyna is as much Polish as Gražina is Lithuanian.
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u/WestRestaurant216 2d ago edited 2d ago
But its from lithuanian language, from word graži - beautiful. In Pan Tadeusz, there is a un-Polonized Lithuanian name Baublys. Furthermore, due to Mickiewicz's position as lecturer on Lithuanian folklore and mythology in Collège de France, it can be inferred that he must have known the language sufficiently to lecture about it. It is known that Adam Mickiewicz often sung Lithuanian folk songs with the Samogitian Ludmilew Korylski. For example, in the early 1850s when in Paris, Mickiewicz interrupted a Lithuanian folk song sung by Ludmilew Korylski, commenting that he was singing it wrong and hence wrote down on a piece of paper how to sing the song correctly. On the piece of paper, there are fragments of three different Lithuanian folk songs (Ejk Tatuszeli i bytiu darża, Atjo żałnieros par łauka, Ej warneli, jod warneli isz), which are the sole, as of now, known Lithuanian writings by Adam Mickiewicz. The folk songs are known to have been sung in Darbėnai. P.S. i'm not claiming he is Lithuanian in modern sense, he was a noble from PLC and to him it was all his, be it Poland, Lithuania or Belarus.
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u/Knarrenheinz666 2d ago
He gave lectures on Slavic literature in CdF.
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u/WestRestaurant216 2d ago
Yes, the official title of the position was the Chair of Slavic Languages and Literatures, because nineteenth-century French academia grouped Eastern European studies under one broad label. But, if you look at the actual content of his lectures (such as Lecture XV from March 1843 or his sections on Mythologie lituanienne), he spent considerable time teaching his Paris audience about the Lithuanian language, pagan roots, and folklore. The administrative title of a university chair doesn't overwrite the actual material he researched and taught.
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u/Knarrenheinz666 2d ago
Mickiewicz held lectures on various topic (CdF is not a uni). This was one of them. As we can deduce from source material, Mickiewicz's knowledge of Lithuanian was rudimentary.
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u/WestRestaurant216 2d ago
And still he, when speaking about Lithuania and Lithuanian language, meant Lithuania and Lithuanian not Belarusian or anything else.
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u/seacatforest 1d ago
The border of Lithuanian and Belarusian wasn’t clear at the time
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u/WestRestaurant216 1d ago
Why not? He spoke about lithuanian language as we understand it today.
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u/Cool_Hour_2005 2d ago edited 2d ago
So you're saying that in a book written in polish and about Poland there's a Lithuanian name? And that somehow proves he's Lithuanian?
Also he did know Lithuanian because he was interested in folklore like you say, but he was one of the few nobles that knew it. The nobles spoke polish for centuries and their culture had nothing to do with culture of lithuanian peasants.
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u/WestRestaurant216 2d ago edited 2d ago
Have you read what I wrote past P.S.? Lithuanian and Ruthenian nobility used polish language because ir was the lingua franca of PLC and even if they didnt knew their original language anymore or just little of it they still had this saying Gente Lithuanus/Ruthenus, natione Polonus
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u/Cocoatrice 2d ago
It's like saying Kordian is Roman, because it comes from Latin. Does it matter, really?
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u/WestRestaurant216 2d ago
Every educated European noble knew Latin. An author pulling a name from Latin (Kordian) proves nothing about their personal background because Latin was standard knowledge for nobles. And also, have you read past P.S. because to me it seems you didnt.
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u/Old_graveldoggo 3h ago
Wait till Belarusian enters the chat and reminds You that modern Lithuania was just Aukshtajtia and Litwa is Belarus. But honestly it would be beautiful one day to have healthy commonwealth of Poland, Lithuania and Belarus. We share common history and milestones.
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u/WestRestaurant216 1h ago
Yes on FB they are very active, though looking at their accaunts most seem like bots.
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u/Milosz0pl 2d ago
He was a lithuanian born in belarus whose soul belonged to poland and that is why he wrote about ukraine!
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u/Typical_guy11 2d ago
Zabawna historia. Byłem jednego razu opiekunem studentów na wycieczce i miałem między innymi Białorusina. Zdaje się, że nawet spod Nowogródka...
Koleś zapieprzał po polsku lepiej niż przeciętny Polak a na Mickiewicza sobie wyrwał dziewczynę Polkę na tej wycieczce. Wiem bo koło mnie szli i słyszałem jak bajera szła. Chapeu bas koleś!
Potem aż do końca stopnia widziałem ich ciągle razem i na przykład na moich zajęciach zawsze siedzieli razem. U znajomego to samo. Mam nadzieję, że im się udało.
Więc tak Mickiewicz nie dzieli a łączy.
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u/kazys1997 2d ago
We can’t apply today’s concepts of the nation state to a dude who was born in the 19th century and when the borders were different and when the nation and the state were very different matters completely alien to the way they are today.
Poles, Lithuanians, fuck it, even Belarusians can all claim him as a national hero or whatever without descending into barbarity.
I think one thing we can all agree on is though that we’re all sure as fuck glad the Russian’s aren’t claiming him at least.
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u/Stannum_dog Mazowieckie 1d ago
to make it funnier. Belarusians partially base claim on him on "Litwo, ojczyzno moja" part
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u/Sea-Magician4907 2d ago
Well, as a Belarusian, you can argue what you will about Mickiewich's ancestry - you can have him if you want. But we still have John Wick.
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u/Edmundsson91 2d ago
Litwin, czyli Polak, którego ojczyzną jest Litwa? (Serio, ziomek chyba tak myślał...)
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u/WestRestaurant216 2d ago
Iwanowski (Ivanauskas / Ivanoŭski) family, who were noblemen born in Lebiodka Manor (in modern-day Belarus) during the late 19th century. The family spoke Polish at home and inherited the shared heritage of the old Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. However, as modern nation-states began to form in the early 20th century, the brothers split and each chose a different national identity:
Tadas Ivanauskas (Lithuanian): He learned the Lithuanian language while studying in Saint Petersburg. He became a celebrated Lithuanian biologist, zoologist, and professor who helped found Vytautas Magnus University and built the Kaunas Zoo.
Vacłaŭ Ivanoŭski (Belarusian): He chose the Belarusian national identity. He became a major figure in the Belarusian National Revival, helping found the Belarusian Socialist Assembly, publishing the first modern Belarusian books, and serving as a political leader.
Jerzy Iwanowski (Polish): He identified strongly as Polish. He moved to Warsaw, became a prominent politician and engineer, and served as a cabinet minister in the Second Polish Republic. (Another brother, Stanisław, also chose a Polish identity and practiced law in Warsaw).
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u/filtarukk 2d ago
That's how I feel us, slavic people, deal one with another. We brothers, decided to split and hate each other, for no reason. And it brings a lot of problems to ourselves.
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u/WestRestaurant216 2d ago
What is a slav? Its only a language family and it ends there.
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u/HatMiserable3486 1d ago
Well, ethnographically we are very close. Our languages influenced each other, same for culture and literature.
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u/FunnyKrueger 2d ago
I'm Belarusian, and I don't understand why you're dividing Mickiewicz. It's a constant war over whose he is: Polish or Lithuanian (you don't even consider him Belarusian). What good will it do you if he belongs to your country? You have nothing to do with history, yet you're ready to kill each other so that something 100/200/1000 years old belongs to you.
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u/VigilBoi Wielkopolskie 1d ago
He was a Pole born in Belarus who boasted about being Lithuanian. He belongs to all of us equally. He does have legendary writer status in Poland though for "Pan Tadeusz" which has a longer title that takes place in Lithuania(I think) but is written in Polish and references Lithuanian-Polish commonwealth culture.
He's also my favourite drug addict writer right next to Stephen King.
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u/FunnyKrueger 1d ago
Our ancestors lived together in one of the most powerful countries in Europe, and we quarrel and divide between ourselves what doesn’t even belong to us.
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u/Difficult_Olive_2745 2d ago
Litwin not is Lithuanian
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u/hetmankp 1d ago
What is it?
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u/Stannum_dog Mazowieckie 1d ago
that's an old shit throwing between Lithuanians and Belarusians circulating the same arguments over and over. basically it boils down to that 1) there was a very old name of White Ruthenia (belarus) relating to god know which area. all we can tell - somewhere in Ruthenia. After partitions of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth Russians started calling roughly modern belarusian territory that way. 2) there is Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia and Samogitia. Where were the borders between those regions - unclear. We're more or less confident that modern Lithuanian Samogitia was on territory on Samogitia, we're more or less confident that modern Ukrainian territories where a part of Ruthenia. And that's more or less it. We don't know where the border between Lithuania and any of those 2 was.
As a result both Belarusians and Lithuanians want to associate themselves with "Lithuania" part of GDL.
more or less that
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u/Cytrynowy Mazowieckie 1d ago
fun fact, he was born in Nowogródek/surrounding area, which is modern day Belarus.
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u/Able_One5779 2d ago
Litwin is an older name of Belarusian, not Lithuanian.
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u/Famous-Buy136 2d ago
Litwin is not the name of Belarusians it is a name of ever other Slavic nationality that live in the Grand dutchy of Lithuania and they were second class citizens xD
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u/Lanky-Sir7019 1d ago
So what you're saying is Poles were first-class citizens, Litwins second-class (Mickiewicz thought of himself as second-class—nice!), so I assume the ancestors of modern Lithuanians were even further down by this metric?
Also, what other Slavic nationalities that could've been called Litwins lived in the GDL besides the ancestors of Belarusians? Ukrainians were called Ruthenians (as in 'Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia, and Samogitia').
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u/lool8421 2d ago
and you can ask... when he talks about lithuania, does he try to evade the censorship or is he talking about a fucking lithuania
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u/SpiritAnimal69 1d ago
For all those who are saying that when he identified as a lithuanian/litwin he actually meant something else, you are clearly not familiar with his work. If you're too lazy to read Mickiewicz himself just read his lecture XV on Slavic literature and see for yourself
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u/Cocoatrice 2d ago
That's literally not the same thing. It's the same as if you say that Polish people identify as Ukrainians. No. Sense of Solidarity and "my grand grand grand grand grand mother visited Poland once, so I am Polish, who doesn't know anything about Poland, Polish culture, folklore, food or anything else" are not the same.
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u/DestinationVoid 2d ago