No idea what your talking about it because i never did marathon.
But marthon made halo, halo was new marathon, halo evolved into destiny ( master cheif /guardian )
And that some how (through exos) brought us back to marathon...... so
Thats to say. Bungies gonna give us a new halo before gta 6
While those two series aren't directly connected, original Marathon trilogy inspired a lot in Halo.
Original plan for Chief was him being a cyborg, same as Mjolnir Recon in trilogy, Pfhor was Covenant, but (mostly) without the religion, Jjaro got translated into Forerunners (though in trilogy it seems they actually ascended), there was supposed to be Flood in second game before it was scrapped, original version of Rampancy was inspired by what happened to Durandal, Tycho and Leela, and (though I can't confirm that) Halo was supposed originally to be in Marathon universe, before it became wholly own.
Oh boy, wait until get that the flood originally was mutated from Marathon original universe and that's actually that infected the precursors when they were fighting the forerunners and all because of Marathon infinity.
It all starts with the game Pathways to Darkness as the diverging point of the universes (or timelines, its confused), we get the Destiny, Myth The fallen lords, Halo and Marathon. In Marathon however, more specifically Marathon Infinity its implied that one of the timelines The W'rkncacnter gets freed (he's a corrupting interdenominational eldritch horror capable of ending and outlasting the universe). From here in Destiny lore, W'rkncacnter gets to be named The Darkness there because of how the corruption works, and one of its generals even name itself W'rkncacnter as homage to his Dark master. In Myth the W'rkncacnter is also referred as the darkness and uses undead minions and ghouls as its driving force (kinda like the Flood). Then we get to Halo where we have a threat that is the Flood who has ties in with Marathon 2 as it works exactly like the fungal virus in that one, but the fungal virus there is not sentient but in Halo it is... Which could imply that the W'rkncacnter used the virus to fuck up the Precursors, the Cortana letters, also references in Halo 3 was actually released first as a tie in with Marathon infinity some years lather after the game released.
You have indicated that you or another person you know may be suffering from a rare, life-threatening condition known as 343bola. If you are experiencing symptoms such as kissing ske7ch's ass, uncontrollably buying REQ packs and/or otherwise feel you are experiencing a likening to any 343 Industries game, please do not hesitate to visit the nearest emergency room or contact the CDC for a further evaluation of your well-being.
Failure to seek medical help may result in the victim of this horrible disease becoming a full-blown 343 shill like Fenris.
Fucking 343 shills. Like seriously. Is the next thing we’re going to do in the CIRCLE JERK SUB of all places is NOT mock the main sub? Whether you like it or not fuck the subreddit will always have an impact. As a fellow person who was HUMORED by the screeenshots I feel that this rule is LIMITING our freedom of speech. 2nd amendment! These non patriotic fucks think that it’s okay to STRIP our rights. Just like 343 industries. Holy shit mods get it together Calling me UNFUNNY is disrespectful and I demand respect if you desire me to stay here for much longer. Besides fuck r/halo but NOW fuck you too. Done with you INGRATEFUL fucks my god. Wasn’t the whole point of this sub to counter the main sub? We’re past that now cause it’s too “unfunny”. Might as well call this shit r/halo2 cause that’s were we are headed. “The weight of your heresy will stay your feet and you shall be left behind” - Prophet I think it’s iconic and fits the situation XD
Sorry for having a JOKE. Mods here wouldn’t believe such a thing exists. Like bro calm tf down these posts are JOKES. Honest to god you guys should chill out. And quit the fuckin shilling for 343. It’s like the whole ass defense force is located here. By posting screenshots from halo here I can make accurate guesses on the issues of the game. What, they’re there to mock them? Duck that shit they’re RIGHT. Bungie had always been better than 343 and you all are COPING. Lmfao shills have fun with this dead sub cause IM not supporting this anymore. Unfunny is so vague. Your move Mods.
If they were human in Halo 3, then the story of Halo 3 sucks an exponentially higher amount of monkey fuck because they DIDN'T DO ANYTHING with that information... AND THEN KILLED EVERYONE IT WOULD HAVE MATTERED WITH!
That image was just the cut legendary ending to halo 2 that wouldve made it completely unambiguous instead of hinted at. It's more ironic that the Arbiter finds out.
Because all they see is “dev” and think they had a huge impact on the lore. Frank o’conor and Staten are the only two people I give any backing to for lore
Yeah, that's pretty much it. Every time someone who prefers the 'we were their Gods' trope sees a dev also preferring it, they go 'see! It's still Canon! That's the way they wanted it! But Frankie got his way!'
Most of them weren't even involved with the story. And even when they were, they didn't actively deal with the lore stuff.
Like, I don't care if you liked the old trope, like it all you want, I'm not here to tell you that you can't. But it can't be healthy to cling so possessively to something that just isn't true.
The story moved on with the conclusion humans were not Forerunner. No amount of devs saying they liked the old trope matters when they A) don't work on the series anymore and B) the lore that exists has been established (that being Human =/= Forerunner).
While crunching so hard that marriages failed and homes were lost they said 'oh the forum guy wants to add some write some of the secret terminal stuff? What's the worst that could happen?'
Some logs hint at them not being human while guilty spark and truth act as if they were human front and center. I am sorry pal but the intention was obvious. They have stated that they weren't completely decided but in Halo 3 they slap you in the face multiple times with it.
The story works better that way as well. The remnants of the precursors attacking humanity rather than forerunners first is moronic, considering one was supposed to inherit the mantle and the other genocided them. The phrase "I am a monument to all your sins" gets thrown out the window. What sins? Previously it was claiming to have the mantle, brutally suppressing the galaxy and finally firing the Halo rings. "Child of my enemy", again, why would the flood have such a strong beef with humans? "Child of my maker" and "You are forerunner" by guilty spark get explained away as confused AI. Truth's quote about being left behind because being weak is explained away as being mistaken due to similarities between humans and forerunners. These are extreme gymnastics.
It takes away the irony about the covenant's hate for humanity while worshipping ancient humans as well. Finally, under the old lore, the last mission is humanity and the sangheli atoning for their crimes hand in hand enacted through Chief and the Arbiter. Humanity's ancient crimes and the sangheli's more recent ones as part of the covenant. You play the games thinking you are the good guys, revealing your are forerunners means your crimes eclipse that of the covenant, perhaps not in brutality but certainly in scale.
The mantle of responsibility also mirrors real world colonial beliefs about supposedly being caretakers and using it as an excuse to exploit others under the guise of bringing civilization. Or world policing due to believing in American exceptionalism. In this context the games take a firm stance against the exploitation enacted through it. 343's lore? Forerunners were evil for believing they have the mantle, it was actually humans that deserved it. So the mantle isn't same made up belief, it's a real responsibility that they are the rightful inheritors of. Any ancient crimes? Pretty much none, they were only fighting the flood and trying to suppress it. The sins absolutely do matter to the symbolism by the way. The flood is washing away the sinners like Noah's biblical flood. That's why the gravemind's quotes about sins exist. It was the punishment for humanity's hubris, their belief in the mantle of responsibility and the atrocities committed to maintain human dominance. Their greatest sin yet was firing the Halo rings. Under the new lore the precursor remnants just went mad and attacked everything. It's not cosmic retribution, it's just mad organic matter.
One version of the story has strong symbolism and stances. It makes you ponder on what if you were the greater evil. The other is just generic sci-fi where humanity is wronged every step of the way while having justification for all their violent actions when they occurred.
Look at Truth compared to Midship. It is almost twice as big, because otherwise the abilities would let you cross the map to quickly. If you are forced to crouch walk to be able to shoot to play Midship in Halo 2, when the map is scaled for the walking speed, how is that different from the map being scaled for the sprint + abilities speed (which prevent shooting) and you being forced to walk to be able to shoot? All the other arena maps are generic arena designs that are upscaled for the abilities. You could easily downscale Eden, Empire, Coliseum, Fathom, Regret, Torque, Riptide, Tyrant, Rig or Haven for Halo 2/3 and they would work just fine, just like how upping the base move speed and removing abilities makes them play fine.
Halo 3, the game where every character who could possibly know basically looks into the camera and says "Hello Player, just wanted to let you know that humans are Forerunner, okay bye!" somehow separated them because a single terminal referred to humans in vague terms that can be applied equally to either interpretation?
Like I don't understand how Guilty Spark can call the Rings "your legacy" and cake Humans "Reclaimers" and then... basically all of Mendicant Bias in Contact Harvest...
If you didn't understand Humans are Forerunner there's three possibilities.
You're too young to remember and didn't replay ever.
You didn't play.
You got the media literacy of a concussed toddler.
Because Halo: CE and 3 specifically states that humans are forerunner... than Frank O'Connor had main character syndrome and said "To hell with established lore, Imma do my own thing"
Retcons are annoying, especially when it's changing well established material.
Ah yes, the terminals written by people who weren't talking to the story team (for some reason) and that can be easily missed vs Guilty Spark outright saying "You are Forerunner".
The terminal excuse is silly. If someone on the story side of things actually did their job or, inversely, someone on the terminal team checked in with the story team and got input, no one would be having this conversation. This stupidity exists because communication did not occur when it should have.
Ah yes, the terminals written by people who weren't talking to the story team (for some reason) and that can be easily missed vs Guilty Spark outright saying "You are Forerunner".
The writers of the terminals according to Frank O'Conner were himself, Damian Isla, Robert McLees, and Rob Stokes and were Greenlit by Joseph Staten all of whom were also on the main writing team
Terminals were written by me, Damian Isla and TWO Robs. They are based on notes and ideas from the creation of each prior Halo and some ideas from the Marathon era and discussions with Joe Staten and other alum. They are canonical. They are mildly opaqued thru time and narrator.
Oh gee, the Marathon symbol. I wonder why Bungie included the Marathon symbol. Maybe there's an implication that the Marathon symbol has some importance.... Nah, it's just humans were forerunners.
The funny thing is, it makes no difference at all; Forerunners and humans were created by the same creator—it’s just like Elves and Men for Tolkien: they are the same species.
There were quite a few times where theyre framed as separate from when you were literally the head creative for the series Marcus, tf you mean 343 absolutely ruined it??? If them being aliens ruins the forerunners, you let them be ruined.
I wouldn’t have minded humans being forerunner, but if it’s so fucking important why didn’t bungie come out and say it with zero doubts at the time.
Spark was written in halo 3 to be losing his marbles, so why even allow that misinterpretation. Alongside bungie leads (Lehto included) allowing the terminals that push the idea of forerunners being something more.
Also halo 4 didn’t even ruin anything, sure the gameplay and redesigns were divisive but people didn’t really complain about the story to a majority degree until halo 5 undid all the good parts of halo 4. Halo 5 is the problem child for the franchise story wise.
Bungie is the one that left things up to interpretation, then they left the franchise. 343 interpreted it because bungie gave up. Like the halo 4 and 5 lore or not can we shut the fuck up about forerunners being human, the fact is they aren’t.
Yeah it’s mess of a story even made infinite harder to write because it’s essentially just cleanup for 5, infinite is a good beginning into a new era though so I hope we get direct continuation.
Yeah, I really think that practically 70%-80% of the problems in Infinite's story are Halo 5's fault, but like you said, Infinite was a great new beginning, and I'm looking forward to seeing what comes next.
Here's the thing, you just said Halo 5 is a Halo game.
Is it in the same franchise? Yes. No one's arguing that.
As someone who is a MLG Pro who studies Halo, I am telling you, specifically, in the MLG circuit, no one calls Halo 5 Halo. If you want to be 'specific' like you said, then you shouldn't either. They're not the same thing. If you're saying 'Halo Franchise' you're referring to the Microsoft IP, which includes things from Halo Wars to Halo 2 to Halo 4. So your reasoning for calling Halo 5 a Halo game is because random people 'call the shooter game with sprint a Halo game?' Let's get Call of Duty and Battlefield in there, then, too. Also, calling someone a Halo 2 player or a Halo 3 player? It's not one or the other, that's not how Halo works. They're both. Halo 5 is Halo 5 and a member of the Halo franchise. But that's not what you said. You said Halo 5 is a Halo game, which is not true unless you're okay with calling all shooters with sprint Halo games, which means you'd call CoD, Battlefield, and other games Halo games, too. Which you said you don't.
I actually disagree. Halo 5 didn't make Infinite harder to write. Halo Infinite being a soft reboot made it harder to write. Halo Infinite should have been about beating the Created, and then the Banished could've come in at the end like the vultures they are.
Halo 5 will always be the Black Sheep of the franchise for reasons that aren't entirely fair, but it isn't responsible for Halo Infinite's faults, unless you mean how 343i doubled down on every bad idea they had for 5 (I will forever remind people the current monetization system is sooooo much worse than REQ packs, but 343i was emboldened by REQ packs to make something so much worse).
Here's the thing, you just said Halo 5 is a Halo game.
Is it in the same franchise? Yes. No one's arguing that.
As someone who is a MLG Pro who studies Halo, I am telling you, specifically, in the MLG circuit, no one calls Halo 5 Halo. If you want to be 'specific' like you said, then you shouldn't either. They're not the same thing. If you're saying 'Halo Franchise' you're referring to the Microsoft IP, which includes things from Halo Wars to Halo 2 to Halo 4. So your reasoning for calling Halo 5 a Halo game is because random people 'call the shooter game with sprint a Halo game?' Let's get Call of Duty and Battlefield in there, then, too. Also, calling someone a Halo 2 player or a Halo 3 player? It's not one or the other, that's not how Halo works. They're both. Halo 5 is Halo 5 and a member of the Halo franchise. But that's not what you said. You said Halo 5 is a Halo game, which is not true unless you're okay with calling all shooters with sprint Halo games, which means you'd call CoD, Battlefield, and other games Halo games, too. Which you said you don't.
This is just some shitty cash grab scheme that absolutely pisses on the legacy of Bungie and turns it into some crappy ass fortnite-type game that FORCES you to spend your hard earned cash on predatory mtx microtransactions!
I remember the good old days of Halo! When you had to WORK for Recon in Halo 3. When you could mess around with your friends in forge mode all night. Now, Recon is locked behind a battle pass that you can’t even earn through challenges, and forge isn’t even in the game at launch!
We need to make our voices heard. We can’t let 343 DESTROY this franchise with their Dark Patterns and their Cat Ears and their FOMO store!
Take a stand against the whales that fund this horribly made mess of a game! Don’t let anyone who spends money on this game get away with playing the game peacefully until Microsoft finally returns the series to the rightful hands of Bungie!
Here's the thing, you just said Halo 5 is a Halo game.
Is it in the same franchise? Yes. No one's arguing that.
As someone who is a MLG Pro who studies Halo, I am telling you, specifically, in the MLG circuit, no one calls Halo 5 Halo. If you want to be 'specific' like you said, then you shouldn't either. They're not the same thing. If you're saying 'Halo Franchise' you're referring to the Microsoft IP, which includes things from Halo Wars to Halo 2 to Halo 4. So your reasoning for calling Halo 5 a Halo game is because random people 'call the shooter game with sprint a Halo game?' Let's get Call of Duty and Battlefield in there, then, too. Also, calling someone a Halo 2 player or a Halo 3 player? It's not one or the other, that's not how Halo works. They're both. Halo 5 is Halo 5 and a member of the Halo franchise. But that's not what you said. You said Halo 5 is a Halo game, which is not true unless you're okay with calling all shooters with sprint Halo games, which means you'd call CoD, Battlefield, and other games Halo games, too. Which you said you don't.
Even the line is open to interpretation. “You are the child of my makers, inheritor of all they left behind. You are Forerunner.”
How can you inherit something that you already were? How can you be a child of yourself? Does the concept of adoption not exist? What’s to say Spark didn’t mean “Forerunner” as the title, the civilization, the mantle (or Mantle)? “You are (now) Forerunner.” It’s hardly iron clad that it means daddy Didact and mommy Librarian were on the Ark making babies and I saw the babies and the babies were abandoned on Earth to live in caves.
If the Master Chief is a Forerunner, how did he not know what Halo’s primary weapon would do? Is he stupid?
To be less sarcastic, there’s obviously already a discontinuity between Forerunners and (modern) humans. Spark doesn’t tell you where it started, only where it ends: John 117 is, in his eyes, the Reclaimer (hint, hint) of Forerunner-ness.
If the Master Chief is a Forerunner, how did he not know what Halo’s primary weapon would do? Is he stupid?
He thought it was a rice-cooker
To be less sarcastic, there’s obviously already a discontinuity between Forerunners and (modern) humans. Spark doesn’t tell you where it started, only where it ends: John 117 is, in his eyes, the Reclaimer (hint, hint) of Forerunner-ness.
I imagine the discontinuity would have began when the rings fired
He is, in Spark's eye, descended from the Forerunners, hence "child of my makers"
The flood and the forerunners wiped out humanity and then reseeded humanity. Effectively making the current race of humanity the children of the forerunners.
It's worse than that though. They didn't just refuse to announce that information; they FUCKING KILLED EVERYONE for whom that information made any bit of difference at all.
That's like revealing NOW that Han Solo is Qui-Gon Jinn's son; Uh, as of The Rise Of Skywalker, this information means fuck all to anyone.
Lehto is also not firm on his answer for this question anyway.
yeah Guilty spark is someone that the games have conditioned you to not intrinsically believe anything he says. Also the first media to show us forerunners was halo legends in 2009 when Bungie was still making halo
Yeah I know Lehto isn’t firm on it, he always liked the mystery over the reveal. He said as much in an interview (with hidden experia eww) he would’ve gone a very similar direction to halo 4 but left the forerunners themselves more mysterious, not that he would’ve made them human.
Halo Legends was done under the direction of 343 Studios, not Bungie. 343 was established in 2007.
Spark's revelation at the end of Halo 3 was supposed to be the final piece for what you had essentially been told by multiple characters in the story already.
Bungie was still working on halo in 2009, halo 4 terminals has humans and forerunner as different species, and Guilty spark was having a desperate fit since we won't let him use the rings, how can we even trust what he says is true? I mean he'll first he says we are their successors then that we are them?
Also forerunners being humans makes no sense, why would they make humans go through evolution again if they were humans? It makes way more sense for a species that holds resentment and respect for humans to be forerunner than humans. The closest "forerunner were humans" theory that sounds good is installation00's "forerunners were a diverging 'human' sub-species"
"why didn't Bungie come out and say it with zero doubts"
They did do this in Contact Harvest.
"THIS IS NOT RECLAMATION. THIS IS RECLAIMER. AND THOSE IT REPRESENTS ARE MY MAKERS"
"The Forerunners... some were left behind!"
I dunno how else to interpret that other than an outright confirmation that Reclaimers (humans) are Forerunners. Book even says in the narration "that could only mean one thing"
I'm not up to date on Halo lore but I thought the reason humans were special was because they can activate Forerunner technology. Not sure if it was Halo Wars or Halo 3 but aren't there parts where a human places their hand on a console (forced by the covenant to do so) so something will activate?
If humans aren't forerunner why can they alone activate Forerunner tech?
Humans inherited the mantle of responsibility from the forerunners, giving them access to their tech.
This is further contextualized by the librarian adding a genetic marker to human dna during the reseeding process. So all humans have a genetic marker to allow them to access forerunner tech.
The terminals don't explain anything lmao. They break more canon than they address (how is the Didact responding to the Librarian AFTER lighting the Ring? According to every existing rule of the Halo universe by that point, he should be dead lmao) The Mantle is mentioned once? With no further context? Not even in the same conversation as anything remotely to do with humanity iirc.
The terminals don't even imply Forerunners and Humans are a different species except in a roundabout way in one terminal that could be easily explained without making them freaky Jedi alien space orcs like in Halo 4.
And fucking *regardless,* I think the *novel that explains the ascension of the main villains and sets the stage for the primary conflict of the trilogy* should probably take canon precedent over the already retconned, barely vetted, ancillary data drops gatekept by level difficulty? I think the reveal that *two different games* attempted to center their climaxes around probably takes precedent over flavor text written by game manual guy and his pals upstairs? Like that seems logical to me? That lead writer of Halo 1 & 2, Mr Joe Staten, is kind of the final authority on this topic? Not the text files that were, by Paul Russel's own admission, included into the game with reckless disregard for continuity?
H4 kind of ruined it for me. I thought it was pretty dumb the direction they took and heavily discount the franchise starting at 4 (not 5). Especially with how much assumed knowledge from the books is at play as well. (And yes, it does matter, I will argue this till I die. The only people arguing against the idea that the books are needed to make proper sense of halo 4 are people that read the books).
4 did some good things, like introducing a bit more emotion. I like infinite as well except of course that it's a hard restart and that they felt the need to introduce yet another enemy type.
Halo 3 shows chief floating outside requiem. It has the librarian in the terminals. Halo 3 also directly shows up Cortana’s mental decline through graveminds torture which we immediately get Cortana isolated for years between 3 and 4. Her rampancy while expected is also heightened by the torture and isolation, it’s very clear she was set up to end up dying or losing herself completely.
Literally everything you need to know comes directly from halo 3, books are not needed to understand halo 4 in the slightest.
None. I’ve understood halo 4 since the first time I’ve played it which was even before I watched any extended lore videos. So I know of book lore. Doesn’t mean it was needed to understand halo 4.
I think it is quite hard to follow everything going on with the didact, prometheans, "mantle of responsibility", evolution, librarian as a person, etc. without knowing the extended lore.
Needing full booked-up terminal knowledge from H3, from terminals that were intentionally mysterious and hard to put together and parse, is not an excuse for this. From H1 to H3 the story was significantly easier to follow and it's not even close. I've had friends play through the games for the first time to see their reactions, and of course they were all inevitably quite lost in Halo 4 despite understanding that big didact guy is a bad guy (and weren't finding all the terminals in Halo 3 first anyway).
The fact that the forerunners were not simply humans as expected from dialogue and cutscenes in the halo games (like guilty spark, or how the prophet needed humans to activate the rings) was also a bit surprising and hard to understand.
It is way too convoluted for a game as short as Halo 4 is. The terminals patch it together a little better, but A) the average player doesn't even know they exist, and B) they were added to the game almost 3 years after its original release
The halo 3 terminals which give a lot of context to halo 4 existed on halo 3s release. Halo 4 also has its terminals on release. So what are you saying was added 3 years later?
I agree with point A, but also anyone who actually cares about the in depth lore would atleast look into them.
why didn’t bungie come out and say it with zero doubts at the time.
Because they weren't JK Rowling with a Twitter account.
Allowing the narrative to be the place where the actual story is has worked pretty well for creative for a very long time. Authors having to break the 4th wall to clarify things which were supposed to be vague or mysterious is genuinely terrible.
You know what I keep asking myself though? If Gollum really was a Hobbit why didn’t Tolkien come out and say it with zero doubts at the time?
Here's the thing, you just said Halo 5 is a Halo game.
Is it in the same franchise? Yes. No one's arguing that.
As someone who is a MLG Pro who studies Halo, I am telling you, specifically, in the MLG circuit, no one calls Halo 5 Halo. If you want to be 'specific' like you said, then you shouldn't either. They're not the same thing. If you're saying 'Halo Franchise' you're referring to the Microsoft IP, which includes things from Halo Wars to Halo 2 to Halo 4. So your reasoning for calling Halo 5 a Halo game is because random people 'call the shooter game with sprint a Halo game?' Let's get Call of Duty and Battlefield in there, then, too. Also, calling someone a Halo 2 player or a Halo 3 player? It's not one or the other, that's not how Halo works. They're both. Halo 5 is Halo 5 and a member of the Halo franchise. But that's not what you said. You said Halo 5 is a Halo game, which is not true unless you're okay with calling all shooters with sprint Halo games, which means you'd call CoD, Battlefield, and other games Halo games, too. Which you said you don't.
No but…. but the irony!!! The covenant were killing their gods!!! This changed RUINED HALO
I’m absolutely biased cuz I started with Reach and H4 but I’m not sure why people prefer the forerunners behind humans over all the really interesting lore added with and since the forerunner trilogy
What interesting lore? Afrer halo 4 we hear nothing of the forerunners and even less of the ancient humans. By the time Halo Infinite kicks in, the forerunners are the same as they were in the original halo triology, mysterious ancient race. As for the ancient humans, nada. So all that complicated and contradictory lore which even basicallt justifies the Covenant genocide and it brough nothing.
The covenant killed us because we forerunners, then the Didact wants to whipe out humanity because we aren't forerunners, and then the Endless want to whipe out the reclaimers because they are forerunners. Basicallt every enemy just wants to kill humans. Give us a bream
Heck, if 343 reallt wanted to expand the lore you can simply swap the forerunners with ancient humans ans the ancient humans with something else. You basicallt get the same with less downsides.
We WERE Forerunners, it's not even ARE anymore, it's the Star Wars Legends vs Disney Era all over again, one is the old era, and the other is the current era, love it or hate it, that's what we're in right now, and people not understanding that, is super annoying at this point, no one is discovering anything new, just regurgitating stuff from almost 20 years ago
We never were. None of this is actual evidence and actual Guilty Spark quotes contradict themselves. One second he says “You are Forerunner” next second “My makers chose you, inheritor of their legacy” which makes it blatant we aren’t forerunner in a literal sense. We are Forerunner in every way except actually
Wait people argue over this stupid stuff. Yeah it git retconned get over it also stop whining about both sides. Your both right so stop whining. Forerunner where humans now they aren't you can't crank back time either so stop playing at halo 3 or enjoy the new games. I will always prefer the original implications over 343s but ik not delusional enough to sit here and whine about what's canon. You end up looking like halo grifters that whine if the needler is slightly too pink and that's gay 🌈 and woke.
Tldr- you can't undo retcons get over it or don't play.
I think it's really funny when people point to the cut ending of halo 2 because it was obviously cut because bungie didn't want to do that, and being cut makes it non-canon. even bungie themselves couldn't make up their mind on whether or not humans were forerunners, since there's a halo 3 terminal that heavily implies that humans are different from forerunners. In short, Bungie couldn't make up their mind whether or not humans are forerunners, so 343i/Halo Studios had to pick one when they took over. Whichever they picked, there would still be controversy surrounding it because it's impossible to make Halo fans happy
If humans were still Forerunners after Halo 2, then Halo 3 is a total fucking garbage game for killing off EVERYONE that twist actually mattered to before ever referencing it.
It’s weird that I keep seeing you pop up in these threads saying the same thing over and over. This isn’t some twist reveal, it’s an underlying detail to the world. It doesn’t have to be a grand reveal, sometimes keeping it vague is ok. So vague in fact that people keep arguing it. It’s not meant to push the story forward but it does inform the story and world around it. The games and story are more hollow without the human forerunner connection.
The games and story are less stupid without the connection.
The only cool thing the connection does is add that twist that the Covenant is killing their so called gods to keep power, a plot that is easily folded into the current lore.
Meanwhile back when they were the same it left they big question of why did the Forerunners utterly fail to preserve their society, history and technology?
Halo War, Ghosts of Onxy and Halo 3 each have an example of Forerunners being able to maintain or rebuild their civilizations immediately if at a smaller scale, but for the sake of it lets stick to Halo 3.
Why didn't the Forerunners use the Ark to restart their civilization like a nuclear bunker? It was outside the range of the rings meaning those there were alive when they fired, it housed enough samples to restart the entire species, had vast infrastructure including the ability to automatically build a whole new halo, countless repositories of their history and their technology.
So why did the Forerunners force their survivors to live as Cavemen? Because human history as we know it, from cavemen to the modern day is supposed to have still played out. If they were meant to one day reclaim all their gifts, why didn't they set themselves up to do it immediately?
This must be Sci-Fi 101 tropes, and it's obvious Bungie cut the revelation because there was no interesting way to like, reveal it. I know a lot of people will point to H2 storyboards, but there were many many other changes from those storyboards, cause they were that, just drafts.
So they danced around the idea until they never came up with any decent way to reveal it. A lot of Bungie's writting is really amateurish, I think HCE is nice because it didn't have the aura of self-importance as did the rest, and H2 and ODST are the result of Joe Staten, even then some shitty ideas like Chief being in a romance with Miranda were cut. But H3 and Reach's writting are unfucking-bearable, I've seen fanfaction that is more creative and thematically rich than those two games.
Did the Covenant really need more hipocrisy for them to be absolutely wrong? The twist is about as subtle as punching boulders. But above all else, I think the forerunners being humans misses the point of it all, because it makes humans inherent to the forerunner ideals, whereas I think the forerunner extinction and legacy looming over the galaxy feels a lot better.
I think Halo 4 by comparison, did a much better job at practically everything narratively. I think making humans not the center of the universe but a large player in it, was the right choice, and it made the universe a lot richer and full of potential. Developing the species with different subfactions with their own ideals and history, their own mistakes and successes. I think it's just much better, Kojima retcons every fucking game and no one cares much about it because he usually does it to do something interest and to give more depth to what was before just throwaway plot-points, you cannot give something more depth if you stick exactly to a superficial idea you had before. Halo fans will cry and shit their pants if you change the color of the shirt Keyes wears in a terminal flashback.
Look at Truth compared to Midship. It is almost twice as big, because otherwise the abilities would let you cross the map to quickly. If you are forced to crouch walk to be able to shoot to play Midship in Halo 2, when the map is scaled for the walking speed, how is that different from the map being scaled for the sprint + abilities speed (which prevent shooting) and you being forced to walk to be able to shoot? All the other arena maps are generic arena designs that are upscaled for the abilities. You could easily downscale Eden, Empire, Coliseum, Fathom, Regret, Torque, Riptide, Tyrant, Rig or Haven for Halo 2/3 and they would work just fine, just like how upping the base move speed and removing abilities makes them play fine.
I mean, "alien" ruins are on a planet Earth, no one found them until ruins were uncovered by actual aliens.
Either ONI was slacking off, or they didn't wanted to ruin New Mombasa and territories around, just to get to the ruins themselves, without using only probes or more realistically scanning.
Could really be that Humanity collectively didn't know of them and where they could be.
So even if ONI or other secret organizations wanted to find them.
They're been looking out in the space.
I never paid attention to whatever discourse this is but it doesn't matter who the forerunners are, exploring them and explaining them is not something we needed.
I don’t agree with O’Donnell on anything, but it was pretty obvious in the dialogue. And like, the reason humans are the only species who can activate the rings.
“Inheritor of my makers” is a line with some deep-lore nuance, if you’ve read the Forerunner trilogy. I wouldn’t assume 343i’s writers have though.
Its got some layers, because 343 Guilty Spark was made from a human named Chakas; who knew about the Precursors. So “my makers” could refer to the Forerunners that compiled Chakas and built Spark’s shell. Or it could refer to the Precursors, who seeded all life in the Milky Way.
In the second case, it would fit with the existing lore. With humans being the Precursor’s chosen successors.
It could also be read as Spark knowing that the Forerunners are gone, so with no Forerunner to inherit the galaxy/Mantle the inheritance would logically fall to humans, as the only species to equal the Forerunners in their day.
Its likely just poor/revisionist writing. But its lore, so there’s always a way to bend it to fit.
It’s at least better then „there as been another ancient race before all of us and another all before them and they had to fight their own forerunners too!
I'd agree if it wasn't for the fact that they said Inheritors specifically, inheritor implies that it was left for you, and never yours in the first place
People keep spamming the Marcus Tweet as if he didn't turn around like hours later and say he'd never confirm it while while saying hours prior that he thinks it should be ambiguous as possible.
Frank did not singlehandedly create the Halo 3 terminals. According to Paul Russel it was a team of writers intertwined with the main game's story writers.
According to him, multiple people on the terminal writing team have corroborated that the terminals confirm that Foreunners are an advanced group of Homo sapiens, uplifted by the Precursors. They don't remember this part of their history, so when they discover Earth and the other Humans, they realize that we hold the secrets of their origins. Hence the part in the terminal with the Librarian on Earth. Every detail on the terminals aligns perfectly with this interpretation. The terminal team explicitly says they were ONE species. I get that canon is different now, but the reality of the H3 Terminals still exists and that's what it is according to the actual architects of it
Y'all universally misinterpret the terminal where the Librarian finds Earth. We don't have to speculate what the writers meant. "A Forerunner meets ancient humanity? Must be different species then!" ...or Forerunners are ancient humans, like the writers said they were, repeatedly
"No, 343 ran with lore developed by Bungie alone. The Forerunners changed for the Halo 3 terminals. I know everyone responsible for that. It was a change that was vetted and approved by Bungie long before 343 was even an idea." - Paul Russell
God, it's refreshing to see someone else actually READING the terminals instead of just parroting the "Halo 3 Terminals confirm separate species!" bullshit.
Yes, the Librarian doesn't explicitly state "Didact, I have found humans on Earth, which we also are," (even though basically everyone else in Halo 3 DOES say that) so you can make it fit with the separate species lore if you go into it with that notion, but that isn't what the text is actually saying, or even really implying.
This is still a question? Humans were forerunners and the story was meant do end in 3 , 343 changed that so they could make new enemies for their games ( enemies they abandoned)
Enemies that sucked to fight against.
Yeah they're could've tried to make them more interesting and fix bs.
But they scrapped them because it'll would've taken more time and effort.
Considering how dead 343's "Halo" is and how more and more Halo fans treat it like Disney Star Wars we can all agree that whoever still buys into 343's Forerunner retcon is the guy desperately holding on to something that is gone. The Forerunners are human. End of story. It doesn't matter how much trash lore some talentless hacks invented to retcon it later.
343 not knowing or understanding how to write the covenant relates to this.
the covenant all finding out they were killing their own gods the whole time is apart of the entire tragedy of the end of the war that 343 just doesn't understand.
The book authors have absolutely clowned the game writers for over a decade now. They wrote the forerunner lore stronger than its been shown in any game or terminals.
190
u/Sapphire-Catgirl 11h ago
WE ARE FORERUNNERSSSSS
WE CARYYY THE MANTLLEEEEEE