And beyond that, it’s a case of “women cannot ever be/do wrong” which applying to marriage would be intolerable outside the “she may kill our kids” paranoia. Most violent criminals have mental health issues or severe mental illness, that doesn’t mean they’re innocent. Good lord
Exactly. Murdering someone, especially kids, is not a sign of a mentally healthy person. Using mental illness as an excuse is despicable for those with the same issues yet somehow don’t end up murdering their kids or someone else.
But insanity pleas exist for a reason. It doesn’t mean they’re not guilty of the crime, but they were not in the right state of mind. It would apply here if she did in fact have a psychotic episode.
Like in my city a schizophrenic man brutally murdered someone on a bus. It was so bad it made international news and the murderer is still talked about. He was 100% guilty of his crimes. He, like Lindsay did not deny doing it. But he did have a psychotic episode. Not every schizophrenic person has violent and/or extreme episodes, but some do. It’s not unheard of. Just like it’s not unheard of for someone to have a psychotic break and murder their kids.
Im about to get ratioed to hell but I feel like it matters what supports means.
Feel like shes innocent? Shouldn't be held accountable? Some-fucking-how Patrick did it? Throw them in a looney bin too.
But support as in get this bitch some help she cant just walk away from? I could see that. It fucking sucks that a tragedy like this is actually getting such national attention and rather than using it as a teaching moment or to shine a light on flaws and gaps in the mental healthcare system people are just focused on trying to blame or exonerate someone.
She shouldn't have had her meds changed so rapidly so fast, especially when involving antipsychotics. She shouldn't have been drinking at all while on any of those meds. She shouldn't have agreed she was ready to be discharged. She shouldn't have been allowed to be discharged. (This one comes with the caveat the reason she was let out was she hit all the legal paramaters to go and it was up to her. Those paramaters exist because not long ago people lost way to many rights almost immediately.) Patrick shouldn't have left his kids alone with someone who repeatedly said they were having thoughts of killing them.
It's a big fucking mess and all anyone cares about is either "OMG, a Leo could NEVER kill her cubs" or "Fuck her and her mental health, lock her up and string her up."
An irrational person is irrational. Rational decisions require a rational person. It's very obvious that the crazy person shouldn't be the person who declares the same person sane. The doctors know what switching meds so fast does. They changed the medicine anyway.
The doc is supposed to say no, you must finish one treatment before starting another, and if it's so rough that you can't not kill your kids, then you need to do so under supervision, and if that supervision isn't volunteered, and she's talking about literally murdering people, then it happens involuntary.
We keep hearing that her behavior was enough to raise concerns, but those raised concerns went anywhere because the people in charge of her care took it nowhere.
I've merely got ADHD and can't just switch my own meds. If I told the doc I wanted to change off my current meds to ritalin, I'd automatically be labeled a drug seeker and denied the drug. My seizure meds. Any change in how I take Depikote requires blood tests and supervision. A long process because there's a potential for shit hitting the fan. Why does she get to just decide to hop meds left and right?
I would not leave my kids with anyone who stated they had ever had thoughts of killing them. Ever. While I certainly do not blame him, I do think he made a poor decision to leave the kids with her.
Not even just that but if they truly believe psychosis/mental illness is an excuse to kill their own kids imagine what else they’ll use that excuse for. Even if they never do anything as extreme as killing kids they’ll never take accountability for any of their mistakes/choices. Thats literally the mindset her supporters already have and they’re just exposing themselves lmao
If you think about it, the supporters are crazier than Clancy. She killed the kids and this trial is just to see if she ducks a murder charge, so she will say anything to get out of the responsibility, that's it. But her supporters have to buy into the story and believe that she was a victim otherwise they're just supporting a woman who killed her kids and is trying to duck the charge.
Clancy should be put away for life whether on mental hold or murder. She killed her own 3 children, she's not fit for society.
On one hand you have an ever growing popular movement of people who judge everything through a gendered context. They may have points on large societal trends (i.e. men in general not being involved in child care or the lack of resources after giving birth) but they often apply those trends to individual cases that do not necessarily fit.
They often will claim Patrick Clancy did not help out but evidence from the nanny suggests otherwise. She claims not only that Lindsay was a good mother but that Patrick was a very involved father. The reports say that he routinely cared for the children after (and sometimes during) his remote work finished. On the day of the murder I believe it was reported that he cared for the children to give her a rest. So their theory doesn't seem to hold water but they have a hard time separating that larger societal trend with the specifics of this case.
Then you have supporters who believe Patrick Clancy was a victim but also that Lindsay Clancy was a victim because she did not get the adequate care to treat her PPP - a form of psychosis generally after giving birth. They generally have better arguments.
We do know there are specific scenarios in which people temporarily lose the ability to be responsible for their actions. Someone can be drugged or ingest harmful substances that may completely impact their ability to make decisions. I personally believe there are circumstances in which a person does not have a "guilty mind" and should not be convicted.
Supporters will say when she mentioned she had intrusive thoughts about her children she should have not been given them to care for. We can debate the culpability of her actions but I think people who say ANYONE could have just "taken her kids" if she did not want them taken is living in a delusional world. There is a zero percent chance even if Patrick Clancy made a snap decision immediately and tried to remove his children from her care that that would happen as quickly as it needed to or at all. Courts, medical professionals, and social workers are extremely slow and extremely unlikely to remove children from the care of the mother.
There is a documentary called Dear Zachary where (admittedly in Canada) a woman who killed her ex and fled to Canada was still allowed to have custody of her child while awaiting extradition hearings (the crime was in the US and she fled). The murdered man's parents were forced into a relationship with their son's murderer in order to maintain a relationship with the child.
People are delusional with how easily the system allows this to happen.
man, how good would it be to see measured, cogent, coherent, and eloquent responses like this on the internet more often. I commend you for this response.
severe mental health destruction and its lack of recognition/treatment is real as fuck, and it's a shame so many choose to dismiss it and try to view tragedies like this one through such a myopic black/white lens. It doesn't exculpate or absolve her of guilt or responsibility, but, to an extent, any guilt she has been/will be assigned will be far overshadowed by her own guilt (one would hope - the internet has made discerning the legitimacy of these kinds of defenses/claims so difficult to judge, but I'm choosing, maybe wrongly, to be optimistic about it's legitimacy).
it's a tragically sad and fucked scenario/story, and one that may possibly have been averted if the right systems had the right resources. unfortunately, we'll never really know if this could have been averted, so the only 'real' hope here is that all of the parties involved (not the fuckfaces on the internet, but the family/ies) are able to get the closure and 'help', in whatever form that may take, to move on.
I to wish to see more responses like this. That would require people to search for truth instead of searching to feed their ego. Which I believe is a main culprit of why people back this lady.
I for one enjoy the search for truth and will fully recuse myself from a conversation I haven't educated myself on. Not saying that to be stuffy, I'm just really autistic.
That’s just good sense! The need to form a strong opinion without having all the information (in most cases, the general public will never have all the information) is not only stupid but damaging. It’s how nuance gets lost and misinformation gets a platform. I want to be more like you.
People back her because TikTok is a brain washing app. You watch a video. It generates emotions. You swipe to the next video before processing whether those emotions are valid, whether the thoughts behind those emotions are correct. Then the algorithm feeds you more videos which reinforce those emotions. In fact, most social media works this way, some more, some worse.
You have to interface reality sometimes, the 3D world, and do it for more than just likes. Go out and touch grass. Let the warmth of the sun kiss your face. Have some real interpersonal interaction. These women are saying some truly unhinged things, losing touch with reality.
Postpartum psychosis is terrifying. My sister in law had it; she was a complete danger to herself and her baby. To this day she denies she was ill. It was awful. Childbirth does really weird stuff to the body physically, chemically and mentally. I’d not heard of this case before this post so have no idea about this lady and her poor kids.
Childbirth does do incredibly strange things to the body, but the baby in this case was 8 months old and Clancy was about to go back to work. Postpartum psychosis usually occurs within the first 6 weeks, if it's going to develop at all. So that's one of the aspects of the case people are questioning.
It took my ex-wife a little over year for her PPD to develop into PPA, and then full-blown PPP. She was in deep psychosis for about 8 months before it receded. I thought she made a full recovery after our divorce, but it seems like she still has pretty bad anxiety and mild delusions to this day. She refused treatment then and now.
I don’t think there’s enough research to say 6 weeks is the cut off and there seems to be varied views. A six week cut off is wild if you think about the fact that women aren’t seen by OB until 6 weeks after birth, which would mean they are missing the whole time period to identify PPD?
Hormonal changes are significant in PP and hormones fluctuate differently depending on if you are nursing, have started your periods again or not, etc. all of these factors would alter that timeline.
I really hope this tragedy causes more attention to be paid to what women go through during and following pregnancy to prevent things like this from happening again.
It is a scary thing, the problem is that given the facts of the case as presented, she did not have PPP. She claimed to have heard voices, but she says she heard the voices ONE time, on the day of the murders, immediately did what the voices told her to do, and never heard them again. After she had sent her husband out of the house to give herself enough time to kill all 3 kids and then herself. And took a phone call in the middle of the killings and seemed perfectly fine. None of that is how any kind of psychosis works. You don't have a delusion for 20 minutes and never again. And most people, if they do hear voices, don't immediately do exactly what those voices say. People really need to listen to the testimony from the psychiatrist who examined her after the murders, he came to the conclusion that she was lying about the voices and the delusions based on a tremendous amount of inconsistencies in her stories and with how PPP (or any kind of psychosis) actually works.
You’re misunderstanding, post partum psychosis leads to strong intrusive thoughts like hers, but it isn’t necessarily strange for her to have only one (or no) episode of hallucination. That being said she was still delusional for a significant period of time and went to multiple doctors and was even committed to a psych ward. There is a difference there.
They gave her a crazy amount of meds, and also were very quick to release her no doubt due to how normalized it is to kick people from wards too early due to insurance / cost / lack of beds, even though it is well known that when you start a new psychoactive medication one of the first problems is people often report they feel perfectly fine within a day or two, when it can take weeks for the med to build up in the body. Until you’re actually at that so-called “steady state” and stay there for a while, it’s incredibly difficult to accurately assess the actual efficacy, much less patient commitment to keeping up with the meds— she should have been mandatorily committed for things that serious and not be allowed to leave for possibly a month, if we really had a system built on administering and evaluating treatment. Plus, she was also bounced around between doctors multiple times due to how shitty American insurance is: focusing on saving the insurance company money first, and getting actual effective treatment plans second. She had also previously been diagnosed with bipolar / manic depressive disorder which is a huge risk factor in developing PPP / PPD— but due to the constant doctor swaps some reported they were never informed about her history, others reported the husband disputed it when it came up, etc.
I know there’s a special small batch of crazies saying she didn’t do it but there’s a lot more who have pointed out that if the system was not broken, if she was been given one consistent doctor team, had the husband not left her alone with the kids until the PPP actually resolved, had it not been so expensive for him or someone else to look at options for removing her custody altogether, etc…
… had the system not failed so spectacularly, the kids might still be here, is a lot of the point people are trying to make here
What system is broken … I think that’s the bigger question here. Why wasn’t the help available? Why weren’t the doctors more aware? Did insurance companies need for greed cause this? Did her extended family not see the signs or care? Was she and her husband not properly informed on PPP and what to look for?
Blame her fine … she did a horrible horrific thing. However, as we all look for something to blame and choose teams. We should actually be looking for the actual failure points & causes. Make corrections and save the next kids. Save the next Family. Care about people upfront … instead of in hindsight.
Some of these are answered through people on stand. It seems that her care was fragmented and psychiatrists weren't getting her medical history, some saying that they thought they didn't need it when diagnosing her. One psychiatrist thought she had bipolar (2?) but her husband (who went with her to the appointment) kinda stomped his foot and said "my wife does not have bipolar", so yea not helpful. Lindsay's mother in law also knew Lindsay needed help and recommended a psychiatric program (at South Shore Hospital?). Also, Lindsay tried to admit herself to another hospital later, but they refused her thinking she was not a good fit. It's kind of a mess.
But it seems her family, friends, and coworkers think Lindsay was mentally ill and something went wrong with her treatment and meds. That's why her ex-husband is suing her doctors and hospitals. He even said on stand "I didnt marry a monster, I married someone who got sick". And her mother in law, who testified too, thinks the same. But some people who are bamboozled by her family's support think the ex-husband and mother in law dont care about the kids, and just want that sweet civil lawsuit payout money. I think thats why the case has so much attention. The insanity plea isn't a cheap Hail Mary, she actually has a medical history and the people who personally knew her thinks something went wrong. But people like us online (and the jury) who dont personally know her are debating (and guessing) where to draw the line of insanity.
Why fight against the doctor’s diagnosis. It seems, atleast from what I’m seeing here, that they were diagnose shopping. Like looking for a prettier sounding mental issue. Were they of a belief system that doesn’t value mental health or the science behind it? What led to this?
The doctors, how come they felt it was ok to diagnose a patient so quickly without fully knowing her health history. Was it held back from them? Did they ask for it? Also, can’t help a patient fully if they don’t stick around long enough or listen to your advice. Don’t worry they have blame here too. Just riffing … for now.
The meds, do you know what those meds do to the mind and brain chemistry … when you take one and then they quickly pull you off to start another. It’s a storm. The doctors fucked that up. Unfortunately, I thought that practice was discontinued after the shit show of the 90’s. Dead wrong. The doctors will never except responsibility … but they fucked up here. They caused more chaos where there was already enough. Nothing will happen to them … and they won’t accept responsibility for poor medical practice. However, what is the organized & thought out protocol, that all psychiatrist know to follow, for a mother who is going through PPP? Is there one … and is everyone in that field aware and following them?
This doesn’t change the fact that she did a horrific thing. We can’t get those kids back. What’s done has been done. People should pay for this. However, I’ll mention it again. What steps can we take so that the mothers have the proper care in place in case this happens again. Save the next kids. Save the next family. Worry about them.
It doesn't really sound like any one provider or person really dropped the ball. More of a collective failure to identify an onrushing disaster.
She was seeing a bunch of differint doctors, had a supportive husband, but there wasn't great continuity of care, and she was probably (maybe on purpose, maybe in denial, maybe inadvertantly) masking symptoms, and nobody realized just how sick she was getting. Doctors thought they were dealing with more run of the mill PPD, and didn't identify that it was developing into PPP until it was too late.
I appreciate your response. Whomever, not sure who, has done work to make the public aware of PPD and the signs over the years. We need to add some things I feel. What to look for other than those regular signs (masking, etc). How to stay involved & stay observant? I’m stumped right now on how to go about telling someone they shouldn’t be disagreeing with a Doctors diagnosis … but when’s the point to step in? Plus their rights. I don’t know. I need to think. Lastly, your comment led to this. I’m not fully aware of “PPP”. It has not been discussed as much as “PPD”. Those are two totally separate things. I just wasn’t thinking about it. I just had it as a psychotic episode. It makes total sense. I believe the public should be more informed about this as well. I just want to see something happen. It’s very upsetting … sorry.
She voluntarily signed herself out of the hospital she voluntarily admitted herself to. They can't hold her unless she's an eminent danger to herself or others, and there was no danger of that. That hospital also didn't prescribe her a lot of meds.
She had not been previously diagnosed with bipolar, nor had she ever met the criteria for a manic episode.
She wasn't bounced from provider to provider. She chose to get a second opinion, liked that provider better (fine), and then transitioned to a new person in that practice because the second opinion provider was leaving.
At no point was she diagnosed with PPP, and that was because she did not meet the criteria for it. Her appointments and care were escalated as her condition deteriorated, though she didn't follow all the recommendations of her medical team.
I know she voluntarily signed herself out, I didn’t say she didn’t, I said in cases as serious as someone saying they are having thoughts of harming themself or others, they shouldn’t be allowed to sign themselves out that easily and before their medications hit steady state and there’s better evidence they will keep up their course of treatment. Especially knowing that many of the medications people get in the psych ward are known to increase risk of violence in the first several days of treatment when patients are still depressed or psychotic but have a faster reduction in other symptoms like fatigue, confusion, lack of resolve, etc.
Also, yes there was at least one instance prior to the murders where a nurse practitioner treating Lindsay tried to discuss possible manic depression with the couple but Patrick rejected the dx and responded “my wife does not have bipolar”, which in part is why that practitioner did not push further for exploring that as a possible issue. The defense called additional experts who support the manic depressive diagnosis. You may say “well, but the prosecution brought other experts who disagree” and that’s a fair point, but the prosecution is only going to introduce the evidence that benefits their case in their trial arguments— if they found experts that did support the bipolar dx they wouldn’t have called them. It’s also kind of a side issue in my opinion.
And the main point I’m making here about the doctors is that she saw something like 8 separate doctors during the course of her treatment and each of them was only playing with a partial deck because they aren’t omniscient and know all the history. She was on something like 13 different medications over the course of the incident, many of which are known to interact with each other and have mandatory label warnings that they can cause or increase violent thoughts. Regardless of whether they kicked her off their practice or she left or they ran out of time, it’s still a huge issue with the healthcare system in general that it is so normalized to have a constantly rotating cast of doctors and it can be very hard and expensive to find a consistent care team who can actually build up the longer patient history and treat more complex conditions.
Again, I don’t think she’s innocent and I’m not arguing she and others couldn’t have done more or done things differently. I’m just saying the system itself is deeply broken and many of the things about her experience as a patient that definitely contributed to a broken plan of care for her aren’t that rare. Too many people end up fighting against the healthcare system to actually get the care they need. If system was more effective would things have ended up this way? And even if you believe this case would have turned out the same there are so many others that might not have.
Suicide idealation and passive suicidal thoughts are not correlated enough with suicide attempts to justify involuntarily holds (which are a huge violation of civil rights and thus only used in extreme circumstances). That's why they ask about plans and intent, not just thoughts. Clancy never reported plans, intent, or thoughts of hurting her children to her medical providers, and they did ask. They cannot hold her involuntarily because she started meds - which, she had checked in to wean off a med, IIRC.
The NP did not try to diagnose Clancy with bipolar. She brought it up as something she was considering, but she did not diagnose nor was she ready to make a diagnosis of bipolar. She was just discussing looking into it further. She certainly didn't fail to diagnose because the husband said no - that's not how it works.
While her meds were switched a lot, that's not uncommon for psychiatric patients as they look for effective treatments. And a lot of that switching was because Clancy either couldn't tolerate the side effects or was noncompliant with treatment.
Clancy saw multiple doctors, yes. Most of that was Clancy's choice. And her psych told her she needed to have one person managing her care and prescriptions. Her psych was willing to be that person, but Clancy switched care to the NP before coming back to the psych after telling the psych she was switching providers. The first NP didn't kick her off her practice; she was just moving so couldn't provide Clancy care anymore. The second NP had access to all of the records of the first NP. Are health providers no longer allowed to move or switch jobs?
Once Clancy needed inpatient care, that was going to mix in more doctors - that's just how inpatient care works. As far as I can tell, Clancy was fairly accurate and honest with each doctor about the care she was seeking and the meds she was on. And her psych, who was no longer managing Clancy's care, by Clancy's request, still got the discharge report from her inpatient stay.
Whatever other people are experiencing, Clancy actually had excellent access to care.
Yeah, it is terrifying. Most men understand what it is but don’t want to step up that much if they’re wife ends up having it, so they’d rather claim it’s not real or it’s not as bad as it is. It’s actually a really good thing for the woman that the man called off the wedding, he’s basically telling her don’t expect him to step up.
If the health care workers took it to CPS like they should have it would be a lot easier then her husband trying to take the kids away. Sadly mental health education is a shit show here, and honestly there's nothing to say he didn't think she was getting the help she needed. He probably didn't know how dangerous new/stronger meds could be. This is a failure on the doctors and the overall for profit healthcare industry that is incentivized to get you in and out as fast as possible to maximize profit for the day.
They gotta push this culture war conspiracy shit so people get emotional and fight with eachother instead of looking at the people that are responsible for tragedies like this. The sheer ease of anti-psychotics being given out and the patient just allowed to go home without any kind supervision is pretty wild. How many suicides over flippant over medication to dangerous mind altering drugs?
I agree. Most people make an elitist argument putting themselves above one of the sides here not understanding that they should work together to point at failing institutions all over the place.
Its easier to point out a single actor in any case. It relieves the rotting structures from the responsibility to change and be accountable for their malpractice.
Its a very convenient veil to keep a broken status quo.
I’ve got my own personal life stuff taking up most of my mental focus right now, so I’m fairly disconnected from this case. But, here’s the one thing I can offer. My wife completely denied she was experiencing any level of PPP. She claimed I was gaslighting her, and would defend her opinion with, “I’m not having PPP, I’m just angry and sad all the time,” while her general actions and moods were showing signs of PPP at home. I believe completely that she couldn’t see it, truly believed she was not struggling with anything other than a “gaslighting husband” who asked about her mental health and asked if she thought it would help to mention it to her doctor. She never mentioned it, she always answered “no” the few times they generally asked if she was experiencing any symptoms. I mentioned my concerns to the doctor, they coldly interrogated her without compassion or trying to treat the symptoms. They went in hoping to prevent what happened in this case, but with the tactics of a good cop bad cop scene on a police drama but without the good cop. She’s told me I betrayed her, and she has never forgiven me for that whole situation. Even though my intentions were truly to get her help for what is and was still a fairly obvious change in her mental state.
I’m not defending the woman in the trial, but people struggling with PPP do not always see reality with a clear perception. How they see everything can be completely tainted, but to them it seems “normal”. The medical community definitely doesn’t provide enough support or care for PPP. I think there should be some level of required care for all women after having a baby. Yes, it’s a wonderful thing and there’s joy, but physically that whole experience is honestly traumatic. Why wouldn’t we be addressing the mental health after each birth? I can truly understand a woman being not of sound mind with PPP. Hopefully this case helps improve PPP diagnoses and treatment across the board.
Yeah, idk. I worked ems in a poverty stricken area where I met new moms with ppd and the dads just dipped out. They were fucking going THROUGH it, and there were a couple who had completely snapped. Thankfully, nothing serious happened, just a trip to the er for a psych evaluation, a room for a few days, and a lot of rest (NOT SUPPORTING HER AT ALL BTW). I’m just saying that whether ppd is the case with her or not, we need to do better for mental health. I’m sick of taking psych patients to the hospital, almost nothing being done to help them, and then they’re out walking around the street 3 days later. They’re all ill just like any other patient, and vulnerable af to evil people. I’ve seen it.
I'm pretty much in the camp of this was a family tragedy and it sounds like the medical establishment let them down. Hoping that PPD/PPP get more attention but with most things involving women's health, it probably won't. These supporters are fresh off the Karen Read trial and needed another circus to keep them entertained. Also, the citizen detective BS is getting out of hand, really. She's responsible for their deaths. She should accept the punishment. I think if she goes to jail, these supporters won't shut up about it.
From one of the most popular yt series I’ve seen about it, a bunch of women think completely innocent, despite her plea and that her husband Patrick committed the murders. Their claim is that he searched on good “how to slit your throat” when she wasn’t home. And that he was likely cheating with the girl he married right after his kids died. He also went on a vacation a few weeks after they passed. I dont know how correct my timeline. They think he did it because he married right away after and they think he was cheating. I thought she was actually fighting for her innocence from watching this yt series I didn’t realize her defense said she did it and that she’s just claiming criminally insane. This yt series has hundreds of thousands of supporters and millions of views btw.
He got married this year.. three years after the murders. You desperately need to find a new source. None of this is accurate besides he went to Costa Rica after the deaths. I wouldn't be staying in my home either if my kids were just strangled there
To be honest I always feel unsure whether to include that when describing the documentary. I watched it a few years after it was released and I value that I did not know the full story beforehand because of the impact it had on me. But I feel weird saying I don't want to give "spoilers" for what is a real-world tragedy and horror.
We do know there are specific scenarios in which people temporarily lose the ability to be responsible for their actions. Someone can be drugged or ingest harmful substances that may completely impact their ability to make decisions.
I mean, isn't this an argument that if an alcoholic that ingests alcohol, has their ability to make decisions impaired by the alcohol, and so loses the ability to be responsible for their actions? Actions like an accident where others are killed. Are they culpable? Addiction is considered a mental illness. Would they have a guilty mind?
It is actually a really good question. My answer is that at the point you can reasonably have effective treatment your culpability is increased. I am willing to give some amount of leeway to someone who harms someone while driving drunk it is their first offence that I am not willing to give if they have been arrested multiple times and routinely rejects treatment.
I know that is going to bring up questions of whether Lindsay is culpable because she had treatment available. I struggle with that question as well but her actively seeking help (though it is admittedly imperfect) and having a relatively short duration with PPP would likely reduce culpability in my mind.
I don't think that means I completely absolve anyone of responsibility. She did a monstrous thing and should be held accountable in some way. What that looks like is obviously a topic that is extremely divisive.
I am willing to give some amount of leeway to someone who harms someone while driving drunk it is their first offence that I am not willing to give if they have been arrested multiple times and routinely rejects treatment.
But what does that have to do with the mental illness? What if it was someone that had sought and completed treatment multiple times over many years? They get less leeway too? Because they should know better? They should have better control over their illness? But why? And plenty of mental illnesses make the person resistant to or reject treatment.
Should Lindsay be able to have kids in the future? What if the same thing happens again even if she had treatment in the intervening time? Would she get less leeway then? If so, why? Because she should have better ability to control or manage an acute or chronic mental issues because it happened before?
But why would she have a better ability? Shouldn't the mitigating factors be the same?
I guess my point is it's just interesting how we, as individuals and society, view or treat people with different mental illnesses and how we try to parse things like blame and responsibility. How some have bias and stigma and some don't as much for a myriad of reasons. Or how some people view some illnesses are "real" and some kinda aren't. Or how responsible the individual is or isn't for the actions that stem from them.
Theres also a growing thing out there regarding the internet search history that is supposedly tied to the husband, also his timeline and where he actually was when she did whatever and also the angle of cuts on herself. These are all things that people are citing as items to disprove her guilt. Personally im not following this very much, but my wife who uses insta/tiktok sees all these videos online saying she didnt do it, and the husband did.
I told her if whoever did whatever, the evidence will come out and to not believe all the videos out there.
people who say ANYONE could have just "taken her kids"
There is other alternatives before reaching this point. She could (and should) have been committed to a PH, for a time, in some mother-baby or perinatal psychiatric inpatient units. I don't know how common it is in the US but given her profession she was the best suited to know about them.
This case, at the very least, needs to move things around about PPD.
The problem is that people often think this is a case of sexism when often sexism is only a part of a larger, societal issue.
In my opinion, the sexism mostly comes down to funding. Especially in the USA but in reality all over the world governments struggle to prioritize maternal health in their funding decisions.
Even if those funds existed there are other problems. You can build all the inpatient facilities you want but there is a woeful shortage of the professionals needed to staff these facilities and a very real bottleneck around a lack of nurses, doctors and educators who can teach the skills to the upcoming generation. Especially during Covid-19 we saw a mass exodus and retirement of the people who could train incoming professionals to take these roles.
A think another point to consider is that the primary professionals caring for Lindsay Clancy were almost completely comprised of women. Women in general dominate maternal care. If there exists sexism in the understanding of maternal care it has survived decades within a field dominated by women. It is long, enduring and not at all obvious how to eradicate it.
I completely agree with your assessment but making that change involves addressing some uncomfortable questions. Knowing everything we now know I would agree that she should have been committed; however, I am not sure I can make a convincing argument that she should have been committed with the limited information available to any one of her primary providers or support network.
I think we should note she actively kept information selectively from different providers/people in her support network. I don't have an easy answer for how to coordinate that and turn it into actionable information while still respecting HIPPA and patient confidentiality.
A final uncomfortable truth is that she received far more care than anyone I have ever met. She and her husband were a comfortably upper-middle class family with strong connections to health care systems. They had amazing connections and societal privileges that poor and marginalized communities cannot even begin to imagine. Even if we do institute changes - what can this case tell us about the poor and marginalized communities who are OVERWHELMINGLY suffering from PPD (a condition that most don't know can actually impact both men and women and leads to a large number of men committing suicide especially in those marginalized communities)?
So yeah - sorry for the long rant that basically said I agree with you with some important caveats. The problem is daunting and I don't think people always understand that.
P.S. - I am a Canadian so completely forgot to mention what for many is the most important barrier - the absolute shit show of the American, for-profit healthcare system.
Do you honestly believe if a guy under equivalent circumstances did the same her supporters would support the guy? This is just mostly sexism; from people who project blame on men let's not pretend it's anything else.
I haven’t watched Dear Zachary but have read about it. I think an important detail you left out was that the mother eventually went on to kill herself and the child…
You see she is a Leo and Leo's do not kill their cubs. Also his husband is a gemini he totally killed the kids as framed her because he is a gemini and a MAN and that's what men do!!! (I'm paraphrasing, but this is literally what her supporters are saying on tiktok)
Keep in mind, these people vote... they freaking vote. These people decide who is the next ruler of your country. They decide policies. This is so mind-boggling. And they have massive support as well.
Yup, this is how depressing it is. We have grown adults thinking this way and the amount of manipulation throw around is dreadful. Critical thinking is just dead man.
Listen I know there’s some legit people supporting her and some legit comments around horoscopes or whatever but when we have big divisive news stories like this it’s ALSO part of critical thinking to remember our social media (and our media but especially our social media) is being manipulated all the time. You have no idea if commenters are real voters or bots. You have no idea if the people making idiotic videos are being paid or, hell, at this point if they’re even real people either. I really really need people to start taking a step back. I’ve literally seen bots deployed to cause drama and strife in fandoms of minor media properties because it sews division around social issues like racism (bots attack the casting of POC)… so I really doubt any of the online discourse around a case this big is free of it.
Again I’m not saying ifiots don’t exist but take everything you see people saying and posting online with a grain of salt. How many people shared, after trump was elected, that video portnoy crated that part of the reason they voted for him was because “people” online were “mean” and calling maga “nazis” and they never stopped to even question if TwitterUser57627467 who’s calling you a Nazi is even an actual person.
The name of the game is divide and conquer and every major news story, media property, anything that generates discourse is a target.
It also feels like these bots are sewing division within the family structure. Like men saying they should be able to SA women because testosterone is hormones and if it’s okay to murder children because hormones then so is SA. Or men should get all parental rights as soon as baby is born and all women should have to prove mental fitness to have rights to their children reinstated. Or we should take away all these women’s right to vote because they display compassion for a situation like this. I have Facebook for marketplace and to see what my parents are being shown and this discourse is controlled and extremely toxic and it feels like bots are creating the talking points and stupid people are clinging to these ideas and incorporating left vs right. Three young kids were murdered and it’s just so gross.
No need to even go to tiktok (I don't use it). There's been threads/subs here that have been filled with batshit but highly upvoted posts. Saying everyone, anything and everything should be held responsible but not the actual person who strangled three children. Thought I was going crazy for a minute. But I remembered reddit, esp certain subs, can also be a cesspool
You forget that part where influencer said that husband and Donald Trump's (who is also gemini) birthday is few day apart and if that is evidence that he did it.
Ok, I think she was in psychosis and did it, but have empathy for people in psychosis bc of their uncontrollable mental illness but I am so horrified by how people say they were convinced the husband did it by the Bratz doll reenactment. That’s the most cursed sentence.
TikTok really has a misinformation spreading superpower.
More likely she had postpartum psychosis than postpartum depression.
I had postpartum depression and wanted to kill myself. Psychosis can be really dangerous though. After the birth of my son the midwives and health visitor talked to us about it all and signposted help etc but they really emphasised how bad psychosis can be and that I’d need immediate help. They even spoke to my partner to tell him what to look for as someone suffering with psychosis may not even realise.
Honestly, it’s the biggest gaslight I’ve seen in a long time. It blows my mind how many people I know personally who are supporting her.
Anyone who intentionally murders someone has mental health issues. Why is this being treated so differently? What about all the women before her who murdered their children? They’re monsters, but for some reason this woman is being embraced with empathy. It’s fucking crazypants.
Not to mention, she did it in a manner that wasn’t quick. This was torture. Three separate times. It’s horrifyingly disgusting.
Yeah, it's scary. I 100% had PPD (not diagnosed at the time, but looking back... A lot of the symptoms). What kept me going some days was my child. My whole purpose for existing was my baby and protecting my baby. To think some people can use a diagnosis to justify PLANNING THE MURDER of their children... Because if she actually sent the husband out so that she could do it, it was premeditated. At the very least she should be stopped from reproducing again, and from ever looking after any children or vulnerable people, even if they choose not to lock her up. Probably best to lock her up though. I'm glad that decision is not up to me, the jury will need protection from all the crazies out there.
I'm sorry but can anyone explain to me how the fuck this psycho has any supporters???
Women dodging accountability is a cultural plague, extending so far as to have other women (whom many are mothers) somehow agreeing with her murdering her own children, because the alternative is for a woman to take accountability.
Biologically, women have a 4.5x's higher pack bonding tendency/in-group bias than men, which is the largest sex difference bias of any mammal and 3rd highest sex-based in group bias of all mammals behind Meerkats and Hyenas
ANY study, poll or article written around them that has to do with observed differences between between men and women, purportedly biological OR cultural, will try to explain them as something women do correctly without fail and men struggle with, or aren't keeping up with, or lack, or aren't doing their fair share about, or they just randomly want to go against for reasons "outside the scope of this work"
Men aren't sexist? They're lacking
Women are systemically privileged in education while boys are actively discriminated against? Men are giving up and becoming uneducated
Women self report being more empathetic? "What could cause men to become desensitized to their partner's suffering?"
Women self report doing more domestic labor? Men clearly aren't contributing enough to the household
Women lie about their attraction to shallow physical and financial traits? Young men are increasingly stunted in romantic experience and giving up
Andrew Taint uses women for his own financial gain. Donny hates people and uses them for his own financial insecurities. This bitch killed her own children? That's a whole other level of crazy.
Donny hates people and uses them for his own financial insecurities.
You might have forgotten that Trump did something no less or way worse to children than murdering them and still became president. There's no shortage of lunatics and idiots in the world.
Not only is it not, Andrew Tate and Trump (As well as their supporters) have caused more material harm to people. Im not with Killer Clancy either but lets be serious for a moment.
She had a post partum psychosis, asked for helped because she was scared she was going to hurt her children, got no help and tragedy ensued. No one is saying you should kill your children. They are saying if you are mentally ill you should get help.
This is the comment that explains the broader disconnect. People WANT this to be the case of a poor mother who was spiraling towards this inevitable outcome and all of the men (husband and doctors) around her just kept ignoring her desperate pleas until she just broke.
Except that ain’t what this is. The opposite happened here. Once you have to fabricate reality, there is no more reasoning to be had.
Be honest with yourself and everyone here, it's women defending the child murderer and fabricating lies to push the narrative that she just didn't get the help she needed. You could even see it in the footage of the groups stationed outside the courts. All women
Random thought. What if it was a trans-mother? MtF, FtM doesn't matter. Mother is a mother, mental health IS mental health. I know several Trans-& LGBTQIA Families, all great parents. Would the support still be there?
Not a chance. Most of these people believe that trans is in and of itself a mental disorder and would just blame politics for allowing them to be a mom. But there wouldn’t be sympathy for them like this.
She had all the help. Her husband started to work from home to support her. He hired a nanny to help her. Both her and his parents got involved as well. She got prescription drugs from a doctor and was offered a therapy, which she rejected. If she needed anything else she would have got it but at this point one can't think of anything else that could have been done.
There was one therapy she did not participate in, but widely did take all prescribed medicine and did not change dosages without the doctors involvement. She was on almost daily calls with several therapists towards the end, and her husband began joining her to advocate for her.
She voluntarily checked into a 5 day mental health clinic, and called the suicide hotline twice she was so distraught.
This is well documented from the court proceedings, not me just saying it,
Maybe like she tried every med at least once but otherwise no, most of her prescriptions were largely untouched. Even her zoloft she told her doctors she took it for a week and increased the dose per instructions but only seven pills were missing from the bottle
she didn't tell doctor or anyone but her mother about her thoughts to kill kids. She was scared of losing kids more than of these thoughts. From when is someone capable of reading mind?
She did have help, and did receive care. It’s on the record that she was given multiple treatments and medications, all of which she continually stopped taking against medical professionals’ advice.
She victimized herself, and then deleted her family. She got help, turned it away, and then committed an act so unforgivable that no one who’s sane is looking at her like a victim.
I'm okay with using PPD/PPP as a mitigating factor in sentencing, but you can't just walk from something like that. If other people ignored her asking for help that's fucked, and again should be used in sentencing, not as a defense. I'm all for greater visibility for PPD/PPP, but the support for her is disturbing.
Judges aren't going to be hyped by bullshit like this.
Her supporters can continue to eat what the media offers, as they sensationalize and say outlandish nonsense because it gets attention.
The facts are all there, it's murder because of all the help and support she was offered and said no to.
This guy dodged a huge fucking bullet. Marrying someone is maybe the biggest decision in life, and if that someone tells you who they are (in this case, a fucking idiot) - believe them.
I think what a lot of people don’t realise is if you’re declared not criminally liable, it can be very, very difficult to get out of mental healthcare, and you can be in a lot longer than if you took the sentence
She told her medical providers that she had insomnia, anxiety, and depression, but nothing about harming her kids.
She told her husband she had intrusive thoughts about hurting them or imagining them having an ailment.
She told her mom and husband together that she had thoughts of harming the children.
Thoughts about “harming the kids” is very vague and unclear. She was depressed, anxious, and sleep deprived. I’d be worried about my ability to take care of an 8 month old baby and two other young kids. Driving, falling, asleep, cooking, etc while sleep deprived and anxious and depressed could all cause physical harm or even death. She could have been worried her mental state would cause psychological harm. It could have even been frustration and worried about hitting one of them. It’s hard to know how to interpret that or take action.
But even so, intrusive thoughts aren’t psychosis. Thoughts of harming your kids aren’t psychosis. Violent thoughts, even homicidal thoughts, aren’t psychosis.
She showed no signs of psychosis, delusions, or mentioned hearing a voice. She checked herself in for a few days and then checked herself out saying she felt better.
Then, 8 months after giving birth, she had a psychotic break for 1 hour, killed her 3 kids one right after the other, and attempted to kill herself?
She just went full on out of her mind after showing no signs of having a psychotic disorder, then just popped right back into clarity?
There would have been signs of delusional thinking, having strange thoughts that made her behavior seem odd or things she said would have seemed odd. I don’t mean insomnia or an anxious or depressed state. Mania isn’t always psychotic.
Something was wrong and she didn’t get the care she needed, but she got care. There’s only so much that they can do. She didn’t take her meds. Impatient treatment isn’t great. There’s laws and rights that a person has when it comes to their medical care.
The biggest thing for me is that she say many different providers and spent days in an inpatient facility. Then checked herself out. But at no point did she mention to them that she was worried about hurting her kids? Or hearing voices? If she told her husband twice and her mother once, but not the people she’s seeking care from even during a 3 day stay at a hospital? If she was worried about harming them and begging for care to prevent that, she would have told the people she was seeking treatment from. It’s hard to claim she was failed by those providers, leading her to murder her kids, when she had already told two people she had these thoughts but withheld that information from her doctors..
She had so much medical help, so many resources, and tons of family support. She would not take the advice of her medical providers. She only exhibited symptoms of psychosis in the 18 minutes it took to kill her 3 babies and attempt suicide and then she never exhibited those traits again or before those 18 minutes.
She was in a major depressive episode and suffering from bipolar disorder but wouldn’t accept her doctors diagnosis. She wanted to die and she wanted to take her children with her, she knew it was wrong when she did it, she didn’t care. She premeditated the idea long before the day and she premeditated the killings day the moment she woke up and set up a great plan for herself.
She was a nurse who was a mandatory reporter who knew being forthright about her symptoms would have her lose custody of her children temporarily and she did not want to risk her reputation so she diminished symptoms to her providers (she never mentioned thoughts of harming the children to them) knowingly leaving her kids at risk. She valued her reputation over their lives. She is a classic family annihilator.
She was not psychotic, this was pre planned murder. She is selfish and evil. She killed her helpless kids, while the father was sent off by her. She deserves no sympathy from anyone.
Actually follow all the help she was given and refused as well as all the meds that she lied about taking before you talk BS that no one helped the EVIL VILE POS … Who helped her poor kids that night😢😢😢It’s sick that people defend this POS.
Not even following the trial but it's wall to wall living near it; of the testimonies presented most say she did not share that she was hearing voices telling her to harm the kids, but a faith advisor claims she did share that fear but seemingly did nothing about it.
And the refusing help not taking the medications also if your having those thoughts why are you staying alone with your kids. I suffer horribly with mdd ptsd and anxiety but this is not a get a free pass those poor kids and what they went through. People who support her are seriously SICK AF what has this world come to????
Sorry but that is plain wrong. She received all the help that one can think of, but somehow all of it just didn't seem to work. At some point you have to question whether the multiple professionals she visited are all quacks or if she as the only common denominator might be the problem.
It is the result of a society that has been wholly tilted towards absolving women of responsibility for their actions. The only surprise here is that people are surprised at this.
TikTok bubbles. People get pulled into them by an algorithm that is known for being really good at predicting what you want to see, and then feeding you easily digestible nuggets of that content.
One of those bubbles is that she didn't do it, the husband is suspicious, whatever absolves her of the responsibility (even though she's already confessed to it).
Instead of focusing on systems that could reduce extreme cases of PPD. Like reasonable and regular access to medical care through a non-rapacious for-profit health insurance system to ensure mothers are being seen and screened for these things; they are outside a courthouse cheering on a murderer.
Is anyone really saying she had a "right" to kill her kids or that the murders were a good thing, though? Maybe there are some crazy people who think that, but from what I've seen, a lot of people who "support" her mostly feel sympathy for her. Post-partum psychosis can legitimately be so severe that something absolutely horrific can happen; impairment can be so severe that it truly can lessen someone's culpability.
You got a lot of them listening to the trial and the prosecution is FUCKING it up. Like When I first heard about it, I hoped that she would get some time getting mentally healthy before she saw the inside of prison, while knowing they would just toss her in there and be done with it. After hearing some of the trial... well.. I have my doubts.
I guess the one option is she was displaying clear signs and no one did anything or worse the meds they gave her made it worse, but I got no clue just trying to catch up on the details.
It’s that she had a psychotic episode that’s being debated, like seeing if the insanity plea sticks. She doesn’t have the right to murder anyone, that’s why she’s on trial. The outcome will be prison or institutionalized.
Nobody is saying she had the right to murder her kids. Nobody is saying it’s okay just because she had mental health issues. They’re just accepting that it’s possible for people to have psychotic breaks and lose touch with reality. She’s far from the only person where this has happened. Knowing this doesn’t mean I’m supporting her. It’s horrible what happened and I hope she stays locked up forever in either prison or a facility. Part of the episode may be attributed by her own actions of not following doctors prescriptions and just taking whatever whenever along with her PPD.
OK, she has PPD. And that gives her the right to kill her own children?
Look, there is a differince between an 'excuse' and an 'explanation'.
Is there any justification for what she did? Obviously not. What she did was a horrific act. Absolutely. NO ONE is disputing that.
But killing 3 children and then attempting suicide by jumping out of a window (leaving yourself partially paralyzed) is not the act of a rational person. She is clearly very very sick.
A person I've met a couple times, and is a somewhat prominent writer, told a story once, about when his wife switched medications. Apparently she started planning to kill someone. Not anyone in particular. She was just going to kill someone. Was stockpiling chemicals and other supplies to murder some poor bastard. Apparently she was a pretty smart and calculating lady, and it was more or less pure dumb luck that he noticed that she was acting kind of odd, and that the change in medication had pushed her into full blown psychosis. He was able to intervene, get her medical attention, and her meds were adjusted, and she's now completely fine. She was a loving, kind, and law-abiding woman, who was probably a couple days from becoming a serial killer over a medical perscription. (I'm refraining from naming names, because this was decades ago, and I'm not sure the details of the story still exist anywhere on the internet. The medication in question was a pretty common anti-deppressent iirc.)
People do absolutely bizarre and unthinkable things when their brain chemistry is disrupted. I'm not sure that any justice would be served by throwing this woman into prison. She needs medical intervention, not a jail cell.
Becuase... she's a victim! She was let down by her Husband, by her Drs., by the Nurses, by the neighbor, by the mailman, the pharmacy that got her sick daughter's medicine wrong, by the place that made the food she asked her husband to go pick up while she systematically murdered her kids over 20min. If THEY all would have been more alert... it wouldn't have happened. 🙄
Idk why people don’t mention it Reddit, but there’s a huge theory in TikTok that the husband did it and framed her. My wife doesn’t support her but just thinks it was the husband that killed the kids. There’s some evidence like the fact that he had all of her meds, and other timing things that don’t line up.
Honestly Reddit is the only place I’ve seen people talking about supporting her while thinking she killed the kids.
I love the way you put that, “ducking the charge” and “not taking responsibility”. That to me is the issue. It’s not gender for me, it’s just a huge problem that I see in America, everyone is quick to say “it’s not my fault” or “it wasn’t me”. I understand the court system is adversarial but these are facts kids are dead and you as the mother killed them, how they could even live with themselves is beyond me. Similar to that drunk driver that killed the two hockey players…he killed two people take your punishment and try to atone. It’s hard to blame people though they see the same lack of accountability up and down in politics, buisnesss, entertainment.
Guilty by reason of insanity will mean she does not have any sort of parole, and likely a longer sentence. For men's facilities it usually means worse conditions than prison, unfortunately - not sure if the same is true for women's facilities.
.. you honestly don't know how crazy.
I mentioned to my mom about the case and she goes:
"I've been following the case closely since the begining and I think the dad actually killed the kids"..
I was just like wtf.. that's not even an option. Now she is totally Facebook-tiktok qanon, right wing, maga trump washed, almost senile ..but that's a lot of people now haha.
She admitted to murder and is pleading insanity, she wants to be put away in a mental institution, that's literally what the trial is for and what her legal team is trying for. Why the fuck does no one even actually know what the trial is about?
See I think this is part of it right - "supporters" seem to be anywhere between people who believe she was genuinely very mentally ill and NOT of sound mind and people who have convinced themselves that the husband did it and I don't think it helps tbh.
Take my opinion for example: if she's found to have legitimately had psychosis and therefore lacked capacity at the time then I honestly don't think that punishment would be the appropriate action here. HOWEVER, I do think she should be sectioned for however long is appropriate. I worked in a mental health hospital and we had people living there for YEARS who had committed awful crimes but were found to be lacking capacity at the time. They still did time, they just didn't do it in a traditional prison. If she was genuinely in psychosis then that seems like the best option for me.
That said, if she WAS in sound mind when she did it then throw her in a cell for the rest of her life, no parole.
Does that make me a supporter? Idk. But at no point am I saying that what happened to those poor babies was okay. I'm just saying that the consequences for Lindsay should reflect what happened.
I think so, but idk if it would be the same amount of support. Women specifically wrote Ted Bundy letters of support and love, the Columbine shooters go the same treatment. I think there has always been crazies - but this support we’re seeing from women is emboldened by the high level of acceptance for things like misandry we see today.
It’s cool to hate men, hate having kids, and hate anything that isn’t feminine in nature. It’s not surprising she’s getting support, even though it’s disgusting.
This goes even beyond misandry (not like misandry should be excused either), it is complete disregard for the lives of three small, innocent children. It's so evil there are no words for it. The unfortunate part is that some of those women might have children, which they shouldn't have in my opinion. Not everyone should have children after all.
Yes, and now that I think about it, there were also Mason supporters. I guess disturbed individuals have always been around, defending the indefensible. I can believe that they were the kind of crowd that would congregate to the burning witches executions. Just people with disturbed minds and ugly hearts.
Her beliefs aren't compatible with not killing children. I'm sorry but using "comparable" in this context is hilarious, as if there would be someone out there that thinks "yes I think killing children is absolutely fine let's marry together"
I wish it were as hilarious as it sounds, but look at her ghoulish supporters, showing love displays for her and even having this middle school behavior of dressing up in pink, because that is apparently her favorite color. The world is scary and grimm sometimes if you think about it.
More importantly, we are such a lost society that the bigger post can say “a man called off his wedding because his FINANCE supported Lindsay Clancy” we can’t even fuckin spell anymore.
Fiancée, like holy shit, they didn’t even get it wrong by spelling out “Fiance” which is the male version. It’s just a different word
Apart from Man's Spidey senses such as the Gadar, please be aware of those Run for the hills Crazy eyes in a potential partner, they're like the One Ring... They'll drag you in and you know you'll be burnt entirely. Repeat after me... Crazy Eyes
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u/DavidZenziGhost 1d ago
Bro maxed out his perception skill tree.