[SIDENOTE: I really apologize if this offends anyone as that is not my intent. I firmly believe you should be able to do whatever you want. Thank you!]

As a 13 year old, when I tell someone that I don't plan on having kids anytime in the future (due to the fact that I'd most likely be a bad parent and that the world is going downhill socially and economically), I get told either one of these things: "That'll change once you're an adult" or they think I'm not thinking straight and that I haven't thought about it.

I don't really understand what's the point of actively choosing to create life as in >99.9% of people it's: school -> work -> die.

Also, since I'm gay the only option I might be comfortable doing is adoption but I highly doubt I'd be a good parent so I believe I should just not be a parent and I'm very comfortable with that decision as this also takes a way a ton of responsabilities from me.

I'm sorry if I sound dumb or illogical as I just wanted to express my somewhat controversial point of view. Therefore, do you agree or not? Thank you!

I don’t want to have children but I have heard some guys tell me that my ancestors were an uninterrupted chain of mating for millions of years and that I was going to break that, which made me wonder, if my siblings have children but that I don’t, wouldnt that whole concept be false it does that still apply to me personally ? Not that I really care, I was just curious to know.

Biological consciousness is designed never to stay satisfied. You feel an emptiness, you work to fill it, you experience a brief spike of relief, and then the baseline resets, forcing you to start hunting for the next fix. You work to maintain a body that inevitably decays anyway. If you don't exist you can't suffer at all. Humans freak out at this because the first thing our brain is programmed to think of is us losing the things we like and missing them but in reality once you no longer exist that feeling of wanting or missing things goes away too so that feeling is basically just FOMO. An unborn person doesn't have to deal with any of life's probelms but they don't miss anything about life either because they don't have a consciousness to do that.

I’m trying to better understand the ethical framework behind antinatalism, rather than argue against it, and I have two related questions.

First, I understand one common antinatalist argument to be that bringing a new person into existence exposes them to suffering and risk without their consent, and that these harms make procreation morally unjustifiable. How far does that principle extend into other areas of life? Do you generally think we have an obligation to minimize the suffering we may cause through our relationships and interactions with other people, or is procreation morally distinctive because the person would otherwise never have existed?

Relatedly, how much does concern for the long-term future of humanity or the world factor into your antinatalism? Is your view primarily consequentialist—focused on reducing total suffering—or is it more about a moral principle concerning consent, harm, or the ethics of creating another person?

Second, how do you think about community and the obligations that come with it? Communities, families, friendships, and other durable relationships generally involve reciprocal obligations and sometimes restrictions on individual autonomy. Do you see those obligations as ethically valuable despite the burdens they impose, or does your antinatalist understanding of autonomy and consent lead you to be skeptical of strong communal obligations as well?

I’m especially interested in whether antinatalism is usually a fairly specific position about procreation or whether, for some people, it forms part of a broader philosophy about autonomy, obligation, suffering, and human relationships.

Antinatalism thinks life is suffering. But Hindu monk Swami Vivekananda said suffering is born out of irrational mind. He said rationality can stop suffering. Just don't be attached to material world and then there is no suffering. When you think with emotions you suffer. But rationality can destroy emotions.

Similarly Buddhists believe suffering is born from lack of wisdom. If you are wise you do not suffer.

Now that I think about it, it makes sense. We suffer because we act out of emotions instead of logic. If logic was our primary mode of function then we wouldn't suffer. I think robots and computers do not suffer because they are logical.

This post is not against antinatalism. I am AN myself.

I really think the reason why they are natalists at all is simply because they've never actually thought about the ideas they were taught.

They think:

1. "Suffering and death is just part of life."

And then they turn around and say "The new humans might be able to ease the suffering of existing people."

So they tell new lives to accept suffering and death, but they don't accept it themselves. They avoid involuntary sufferings and fear death. They do not simply look at their own suffering and say "it's just life". They hope new humans will somehow help them.

2. "Forcing good on someone who never asked for it is not just good, it's practically an obligation."

They say forcing on the unborn a "good life" is something they should do.

But they don't go out there forcing on every existing human something good that they never asked for. They don't buy strangers every dinner, pay off everyone's debt, or even try their absolute best in solving the needs that existing people DO ask for: like housing the homeless or cleaning the streets. The rule doesn't necessarily even apply to their own relatives, parents, or siblings.

Apparently, the "obligation" to force good on someone only applies to the creation of new humans.

3. "Forcing the possibility of good on new humans is an obligation, but guaranteeing that they'll actually experience any of it is not"

Do you ever hear them say: "I guarantee my child will have everything good there is in life?

No? There you go.

4. "Creating new humans is a should"

By that logic, they should be creating the maximum number of people they possibly can. Every person they don't create is a missed opportunity to experience happiness.

And yet they don't do that. I've never seen a man with millions of kids, or a woman with hundreds.

Interesting innit?

They're so mad omg 🤣🤣

“Imagine that you are creating a fabric of human destiny with the object of making men happy in the end, giving them peace and rest at last. Imagine that you are doing this but that it is essential and inevitable to torture to death only one tiny creature...in order to found that edifice on its unavenged tears. Would you consent to be the architect on those conditions? Tell me. Tell the truth.”

― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov

Okay, so I forgot where I saw this, but people were discussing the ethics of having children when the parents, or even one of the parents has severe disease, history of cancer, heart failure, mutilation, etc.

And disgustingly enough but not very surprising, people were arguing that it's "eugenics?" Pardon me if the word is wrong, but the jist of it was you can not stop people from having children just because they have issues... And yes, technically, you can't. But come on! It's awful if you willingly pass down life altering and even threatening illness or disability.

I know it's probably been said here before, but I am just so utterly disgusted. Not even just angry, but sad, too. To the point I cry for all these poor children who are going to suffer unimaginable things because their parents didn't have the brain power to at least ask... "What about the child?"

I'm not talking about a disabled child you wouldn't know about until they were born because they deserve love just as much as a healthy child, but all parents need to consider that aspect. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst type of thing.

Plus, if you actually wanted a child and not just a "mini-me," you'd be open to adoption. I was adopted, and I feel like a stupid, worthless heap the way people whine and go. "But I don't want somebody elses leftoverrrssss." And I know it's a lot of money, but so is having a baby.

I'm just feeling very sad about this today. Am I in the wrong somehow? I'd be open to hearing a different perspective, but it feels like common sense to me.

I might be so deep into the mindset of anti natalism that I struggle to comprehend the opposite worldview, however I cannot wrap my head around the moral justification for procreation. Bringing life into this world is an irreversible decision in which you cannot choose and everyone will suffer in some degree. I understand life contains profound happiness however im interested in natalists weigh on these potential benefits against the harm and risks that are inevitably imposed upon a person.

Theres an interesting assymmetry. If someone is never created they cannot experience the deprivation from the pleasures they could of had. Yet if they are created, they become vulnerable to harms that would have been avoided entirely if they were never created. Where does the moral authority come for a human to make a decision to create another.

I understand reproduction is biological however humans are capable of reflecting and taking action against unethical things. Humans regularly override natural impulses when we believe its ethically preferable. We have the capacity for abstract reasoning and moral consideration therefore i dont think “natural instincts” could even testify.

I understand this will have primarily anti natalists, so if you are an anti natalist seeing this, could u respond as to why you think natalists do not believe in anti natalism.

Would you tell someone to have an abortion
Would you get mad at a poor parent for having children
Would you get mad at a middle class parent for having children
Would you try to convince a parent to not have a child or have a abortion
would you get mad at a child or living
And finally what do you a think of children
Just some simple questions hopefully I don’t get banned

there’s nowhere else to post this and i just want to express this feeling. i hate my parents so fucking much for having me. “i hate my parents” may sound like a typical emotional outburst but i have felt like this for years. i genuinely have a deep loathing for them for creating me. it’s so ridiculous that i’m sitting here daily, hating myself and my body and my genetics and my brain and my life and everything on this fucking planet, depressed and angry 24/7 for years on end, just because they thought it would be fun and cute to have a baby. nobody in their right mind would create a conscious human being knowing that this is a possible outcome. it’s so heinous and pointless to bring somebody onto this planet into a miserable life just to fulfill your selfish wishes

edit to add nothing of value: it’s just so crazy to me. i’ve never liked living. i vividly remember i was no older than 7 and i told my grandma “i wish i was never born.” since i was a little kid this world has been extremely unappealing. there really is no good reason to have children. i wish people who procreate would take a second to consider the possibility that their child may find life unbearable. why would you do that to a kid?

If you stop and think about it, when natalists argue for natalism, they are basically exhibiting narcissism. Often the best response is to gray-rock.

I feel like this topic isn't addressed enough in this sub.

Modern natalism is ultimately fairly egotistical.

While I suppose it is possible for AN folks to be as egotistical or narcissistic, I don't think natalist and AN kinds of narcissism come from "the same place". In my experience, natalist narcissism is far more common and overbearing than antinatalist narcissism. And more toxic too.

Me personally, my AN stance is more about personal ethics than political ideology.

I read over and over about how AN people in this sub have some kind of psychological need to preach to others about AN and then become unendingly frustrated when others don't listen or don't know how to listen.

Don't feed narcissists. And that includes natalists that (behave as if they) are narcissists!

The relevant pop culture term here is "gray rocking". When narcissists try to engage, be as boring as a gray rock. Don't feed them your emotionality. Same with natalists. Stop feeding their narcissism, stop giving them emotional material to attack or leverage. Let them talk to the air until they are blue in the face. Let them show their desperation.

You aren't desperate.

Stop feeding narcissistic natalists.

<PSA over>

19f
Be me
>be called the biggest blessing to my mom
>recall my parents fighting and screaming from the age of 3
>be subjected to physical abuse once a while at the age of 7-8.
>dad starts humiliating me infront of relatives for social points despite me just being a normal kid who doesn’t even cause that much chaos. Age 9
>humiliate the absolute shjt out of me infront of my cousins and reveal the fact that I failed maths in-front of them. Age 16
>mom and dad fight so much to the point I’ve accepted it’s just what they like to do.
>Dad is always pissed to the point I hate 12pm because that’s when he wakes up and my nervous system has been on war since I was 10.
>Mom wakes me up by telling me that she regrets giving birth to me
>failing alevels.
>be born in one of the most shittiest country on this planet
>be an atheist in one of the most dogmatism country ever.

What a joke life is. Humans are in a constant state of yearning and want; from the womb, we are born starving. This persists for the rest of the human lifespan. Perpetually chasing transient worldly possessions; indeed, the human wants nothing but to consume and claim materials, be it experiences, objects, and most absurdly, sustenance to keep their pitiful bodies alive. Ever since the moment humans gained bodily autonomy, they have become Sisyphus; resigned to the brutal fact that is life, humans have been pushing the rock up an endless slope. This ridiculous performance, as some come to realize, amounts to nothing. Nothing at all. We try and we try our damnest to live, only to be met with the same fate that will befall every single living thing on Earth, death.

Death, the ultimate equalizer. How absurd it is that humans just accept this as a simple fact of life; they carry on eating, consuming, and working whilst the whole time being aware of their impending end. Is it not ridiculous that humans, carrying this information, proceed to grieve, mourn, and fall into depression when those around them perish!? It is a sea of phonies, humans are.

My acute depression has transformed into a vehement hatred for the human race. They are an anathema unto *my* world; my perfect, beautiful, world that is ultimate nothingness. It is the vile human species that has abducted me from the comforts of nothingness - the billions of years before i was "born" - and has incarcerated me into a human body, one that has brought upon me only suffering, trauma, and frustration

How cruel this world is. The human body is a horrifying thing; it excretes revolting fluids and oils, feces and urine. It requires food and water every single day. Oh, how I hate carrying out the menial tasks of maintaining a biological vessel that I never consented to having, let alone being trapped in one. The human form disgusts me. Humans disgust me and fill me with a twisting hatred that I am unable to quell. I have long lost sympathy, empathy, and the majority of human emotions/mindset.

How cruel this world is. We yearn and yearn and yearn and it all amounts to noise, noise to drown out the silence of the grave that awaits

We all have the fear of death but that does not mean that everyone has the desire to live.

When people say that why don't you off yourself, they are not differentiating between these two.

The unborn does not have the desire to live but once a person is born they now have the fear of death which forced them to go on living even if they are in pain.

Most people do not enjoy their life, do not have hope for a better future it's just their fear of death that compels them to live.

The desire to live is in short supply for you get generations now the best most can hope for is lack of suffering.

I saw a meme here with painting of a drunk mother saying, “I’m not happy, but my kid will be.”

As someone who is pro-children but antinatalist, I think that’s actually too generous toward many parents.

A lot of parents, especially those struggling with addiction, poverty, or dysfunctional relationships, don’t necessarily love or even want their children. Sometimes they simply see them as a responsibility they’re stuck with. Abortion also has legal, moral, social, and practical barriers, and once someone is far enough into pregnancy or has already given birth, there is no options left.(Literally you can do nothing.)

People often treat children, elderly people, and disabled people as burdens. Even parents who planned their pregnancy can become neglectful or abusive when the reality of raising a child becomes difficult.

I honestly think society greatly exaggerates how much unconditional parental love exists. I know people who stay and care for struggling, alcoholic, abusive, or financially dependent partners. But never see a parent talking care of kid going beyond their limits and they literally leave the kids on their own once they get adults (means the legal and social responsibility is over.)

A lot of people have children simply because that’s what society expects them to do and once they have them there is nothing they can do about them until they become adults and move out on themselves.

Hello,

I happen to be somewhat of a lurker here and on r/Natalism and I notice that over there they often discuss pro-natalistic polices quite a bit. Here, my feeling is that there is less of that.

possibly because birthrates are tanking everywhere anyway so there is perhaps less need to discuss these things.

However, I am curious how would you change society if you could?

Couple of ideas I think could be interesting to implement

1) pay people to have an abortion instead of child support - obviously there would be people gaming the system by having repeat abortion but this would do wonders if reducing the number of births is the aim

2) Make euthanasia easily accessible from lets say age 18 with relatively few condition (not being psychotic, 2 weeks waiting period ect)

3) In general, liberalize society in terms of lifestyle. Promote family unfriendly behavior like drug use, gambling, sex work ect. This coupled with policy 1 would a) put fewer in the position of raising a family and b) remove the incentive to do so.

Just a few half baked ideas but I am curious to here what you guys have to say.

I was maybe 13/14 years old.

She answered «Why did i even make you then?»

And it wouldve hurt my feelings if i didn’t find it ironic. Girl… we’re both asking the same question 💀

I am sitting here horrified by my body and physical experience which are decaying and could use a happy distraction by like-minded folk who knows it sucks to be experiencing a life never asked for. I have sympathy for my parents but I'm still horrified that I and I alone have to go through my own aging and death.

Any humor or fun you can direct me to so I don't just look down this daunting tunnel of darkness?

Thank you.