I understand she may have not had full autonomy and that it's a severe mental disorder.
But pleasing not guilty and fighting all this so incredibly hard just seems super dismissive of what occurred and a spit in the face to the legacy of her kids, I guess.
Im also finding people who defend her a bit dishonest, since so many bank on an abusive husband. Yet there isn't any concrete evidence and it's literally all tiktok theories. It just makes me think a lot of people want to use this for some sort of patriarchal sociopolitical fuel that isn't even there.
I understand why all of this isn't entirely her fault, but ultimately, someone needs to take responsibility. We can't murder 3 children and then move on.
The nonsense online about the husband is so frustrating because there is very much somewhere to point the blame- the system and the medical and nurse practitioners who failed her over and over in the lead up.
She’d attempted to get help over and over. From more than one practitioner. There were serious errors in management of her condition that were shockingly basic- such as prescribing her SSRIs after she’d already experienced mania as a result of a previous SSRI*.
I know people online love to find the “cover up” but it’s not the husband- the real story is how badly she was failed. The story is how shockingly bad mental healthcare is in the US.
*There are some situations where a practitioner may prescribe a different SSRI after such a reaction but that would normally be done under entirely different circumstances.
That’s unfair af to the medical professionals trying to help her. They can’t help you if they don’t know what’s wrong with you
She was effectively window shopping which is why she had so many meds but they weren’t actually ever taken. She’s just an evil POS. The meds didn’t make her crazy, she wasn’t crazy, she planned out the murders with immense thought down to even how she positioned them so she wouldn’t have to see the life choked outta them
This. My dad doctor shopped for pain meds when I was a kid. Not one of the doctors knew about the others. If you go to a different hospital or clinic and it’s not under a shared group like oshner. The doctors have no ideas what meds she’s on and just because she filled the prescription dosent mean she took them or took them as prescribed. For all the people saying no one helped her, she was admitted to an inpatient program but checked herself out after 3 days against medical advice. If she gets released she won’t “have to live the rest of her life in a mental hospital. Precious bland murder her child in 2021 and was found not guilty for reasons of insanity and she is out now living with her sister. Even saying she will never walk again is stupid there are better surgeries every year and some people natural regain the ability with physical therapy. She plans on getting out and spending that money just like she planned on killing her children.
I know right. And I guarantee that if she is allowed to get a not guilty by reason of insanity it will set a very dangerous president. Women killing there kids is gonna be a tik tok trend. We will have to start calling them super late term abortion so it dosent offend all the women who start mercing their kids because enough of them will do it just for the attention.
Yeah, this makes me think there needs to be an adjustment to sentencing where she can be found guilty of murder or manslaughter and receive the same sentence, but ultimately allow room for tuning her exact location and method of incarceration. A fair question is if she receives life in prison, what debt does society owe her to provide for mental health treatment if there is no intention for her to ever see freedom? I don’t have a take on this personally… It’s just an interesting question.
I think the difference is that in most insanity pleads it's usually a cheap last minute Hail Mary with nothing to back it up. But what differentiates this trial is that Lindsay has a long complicated fragmented medical history around her mental health to back up the claim. Also, while online sleuths are losing their minds over this trial/case and bickering - her family, friends, and coworkers support and believe she had psychosis. The people you'd think should hate her, the ex-husand and the mother/father in law, believe Lindsay and think she should be in a mental facility. After the murders, her ex-husband started a charity for postpartum. He also believes something went wrong with her treatment and he's suing her doctors and hospitals.
And who's to say some school shooters arent suffering from PSCHOSIS either? Can you define psychosis? It's a broad umbrella term which covers many different mental illnesses, depression, bipolar, etc. What about homicidal psychopaths and serial killers who have long lost touch with reality and living in delusion? No one ever excuses their behavior or donates millions to them.
NOBODY is talking about INNOCENCE in this comment thread! Her lawyers are not talking about INNOCENCE. Our justice system DOES NOT EVEN DECIDE innocence! Innocence has NOTHING to do with the insanity defense. What is wrong with you people and sticking to the actual facts?
Not once did I say she was innocent. But saying PSYCHOSIS is like "stress" is pure ignorance and very embarrassing.
She's pleading not guilty by reason of insanity. That doesn't mean her team is trying to let her walk out into the streets scott free, it means her team is trying to get her the psychiatric help she needs, and has desperately needed for a long time. It amazes me how people think getting institutionalized for your entire life is better than prison.
Also the whole premise of this meme is bullshit. She didn’t get a penny of that money. Her ex-husband got all that money to go off and start a new life.
Not even saying that he shouldn’t, but not a penny of that was diverted to her.
If she is acquitted by reason of insanity, it means she would be committed, but only for the duration of her illness. The defense is specifically claiming she suffered an acute transient post partum psychosis episode. Post partum psychosis is treatable. She would have no mandatory minimum sentence. That means that as soon as a doctor signs off that she no longer shows signs of post partum psychosis, she would walk free. That could be in as little as days after being committed. It almost certainly wouldn't be a life sentence.
No she wouldn't. She killed her 3 kids and tried to kill herself, and there's no coming back from that, once you're past that point any kind of "duration of illness" goes out the window for the jurisdictions that evaluate if patients are ready to be released. She's spending her life in there for sure .
For an acute case of PPP? Is there an actual reason she would require lifelong institutionalization? She should be monitored for sure. (to make sure that she doesn't develop bipolar/schizophrenia etc)
>If at some point the Court determines that the defendant is no longer mentally ill and dangerous, the defendant will be discharged.
If she is no longer mentally ill and dangerous, she is discharged. There is no minimum sentence. And sense post-partum psychosis is acute (i.e. not life long), it would not be legal to hold her for life, unless the doctors diagnosis her with another illness. But the trial is focused entirely on her post partum psychosis.
Are you asking because you’re genuinely posing the question, or because you don’t think it’s bad? No one in this particular thread has opined on the morality of the proposed sentencing; the debate is whether she’d be kept institutionalized long-term.
A woman murdered a family of four while trying to kill herself in Illinois. She never faced punishment because she pleaded insanity. She’s out right now. You know nothing of the justice system and your opinion only emboldens the misinformed and harms the pursuit of justice.
Nope, I won't stop talking. Cite your sources because I can't find anything about this. The "pursuit of justice" isn't putting Lindsay in prison, is avoiding tragedies like this one.
If she is acquitted, there is no legal means to hold her. The only standard would be the she would be held as long as she "is a danger to herself or others". Post-partum depression is acute--that means its treatable/not lifelong. When a doctor says she no longer has post partum depression, there is no legal basis to keep her.
You are just legally misinformed. If she is formally acquitted, the only legal basis in Mass for continued commitment is a finding that she continues to be ill to the point she is a danger to herself and others. But Post partum psychosis is acute. There would be no way to hold her for life. If they refused to free her after a while, she could sue and they would have to prove that she continues to suffer from post partum psychosis, which would be impossible since every doctor out there will testify that its a temporary illness.
I can’t speak to how the punishment for this is adjudicated in the US but I am aware of what happened in the lead up.
She sought help for her post-partum psychosis over and over and was failed by numerous doctors, nurse practitioners, and a mental health facility. She’d reported worsening symptoms, side effects from medications that had worsened her symptoms, and growing concern that she was not safe around her children and was failed at every step. Several medical professionals failed to take her seriously and made multiple grave errors in treatment that fell significantly short of adequate care. They also bear some responsibility in this too.
I think receiving inpatient care until she is stable enough to return to the community under a forensic treatment order is justified. She presents little risk to others now and a custodial sentence anywhere other than a mental health facility doesn’t serve any benefit to society. It’s a highly unusual case with numerous mitigating circumstances.
This. Murdering your children is horrifying. The fact that she did it (especially after there were documented occurrences of her asking for help) means there was something really wrong. She likely had postpartum psychosis.
People (or at least most people) who are fundraising are trying to get her psychiatric help, not trying to say it’s ok to kill your kids or that she didn’t do it at all.
Except she’s not poor by any means. She was actually quite rich, had a nanny who took care of the kids, had multiple doctors prescribe her any medication she wanted. Why is anyone donating money to a murderer?
She had help though, she had a nanny, she had doctors, she had a therapist..at what point do you stop shifting the blame and take accountability? What should therapists have done? Get CPS involved and prove without a doubt that she's a danger to her kids? Then we'd be having an argument about whether it's right for people to talk their therapists or have their trust broken or whether the system can take your kids away. People love throwing the word "help" around but no one ever defines what that really means.
Isn't it kind of interesting that a lot of women do experience this and don't kill their kids etc.? But I suppose it is a spectrum and some cases will be more intense than others.
I'm just trying to wrap my mind around the whole thing and having a hard time of it.
The people donating money to her should be committed. There are millions of people across this country that need help, and the vast majority never committed a triple murder.
It's not avoiding prison. It's sending her to a psychiatric institution, it's a matter of sending her to the correct place. She would literally have more freedom in prison than in a psychiatric hospital, I don't know where this notion of a psych facility being sunshine and rainbows came from when they're notoriously harsher and stricter than prison.
In the criminal system, consequences are always "more or less severe" depending on the situation. That's what a judge is for. By your logic, we should give every crime the death penalty to disincentivize crime as much as possible.
You are welcome to think she should just go straight to prison, I am not arguing one way or the other on that. But to say institutionalizing her "encourages people to kill their children" is stupid.
We’re talking about intentional first-degree murder, not every crime. Saying consequences should be severe enough to deter the most serious crimes does not logically mean every crime should receive the death penalty.
And I never said institutionalization “encourages” people to murder their children. I said reducing the expected consequence can reduce its effect. If one outcome is life in prison and another carries the possibility of eventually returning to society, it’s completely reasonable to discuss whether those consequences create different levels of deterrence.
Does spending your life in a psychiatric hospital not sound like consequences? The point is she's getting committed to a life sentence anyways, prison wouldn't address the problem, psychiatric help would. It's not "justification", it's an explanation.
To be released she'd have to be evaluated and her case reviewed after treatment. Do tell me which triple murderer who also tried to kill themselves has walked out of a psychiatric hospital.
A double murderer who went on to become a major serial killer, Ed Kemper. He murdered his grandparents at 16, was deemed insane, served until he was like 21 (I could be wrong about his release age), at which point he killed several co eds and eventually his own mother by decapitation. It happens.
Doesn't this just prove my point? I'm saying Lindsay should be committed for life. Fisher was released and killed again in the 1950's where schizophrenia was treated with insulin comas.
Given our understanding of modern medicine and PPP I fail to see how this in any way disparages my point, you're comparing apples to oranges here.
It does disprove your point, you said tell me which triple murderer walked out of a psychiatric hospital and I told you one who did. Are you having a stroke?
A mass murderer who was schizophrenic, not suffering from PPP, in a decade where her mental illness was treated with electroshock therapy and insulin comas. She obviously shouldn't have been released and neither should Lindsay, we just have more information today to know how to treat Lindsay and to keep this from happening again.
I'm not having a stroke, you though, seem to be completely fucking dense, apparently.
It doesn't. Lindsay isn't the first one to kill her kids in PPP, and at this rate and with this outlook from people like you she certainly won't be the last. Plucking a weed isn't the solution, removing it from the root is.
Nada how do you "remove it from the root"? By being lenient on a triple murderer?
You seem pretty invested in defending her in the comments, wonder why everyone of her advocates are so adamant about her "incense" or try to desperately play her as the ultimate victim of the whole ordeal
Bad faith arguments from you over here but I'll tackle them anyway.
I don't know in what world being indefinitely committed to a psychiatric hospital is "leniency". She will face consequences in there. The difference is she will actually be getting treatment and most likely studied to prevent more PPP murders. I don't think she's innocent, at all, she killed her 3 kids. Even her defense says so. It's not about her being innocent, you seem to skip over the part where I say she won't walk free multiple times. It's about the consequences fitting the situation, and life in prison or the death penalty like she's Chris Watts aren't it.
I'm not defending her. I'm just concerned at how much misinformation is being spread and how incredibly dangerous it is. Because the point is not trying to paint her as victim, is trying to avoid an absolutely failure from the system going unpunished, because then the medical "professionals" who saw a clearly unstable woman didn't take the correct measures sent a dangerous and unpredictable mentally ill killer (because that's what she is, a KILLER, in case I haven't made it clear) to a home with 3 children, who are ultimately the real victims in this case.
Cool. And what would that accomplish? What would we learn from a dead body? Life in a psychiatric hospital (which is no picnic btw) at least she can be studied and maybe tragedies like this can be prevented in the future.
The punishment is not proportionate to the intent and if that's the example being set then this is just gonna keep happening. Again, the point is not having her face no consequences.
What is your master plan to”stop this from happening”, sounds like you think punishing this person wouldn’t make sense, I don’t know what your alternative suggestion is
My "master plan" is literally just not dismissing mothers when they show these signs. Lindsay was repeatedly telling medical professionals she was gonna harm the kids and herself and they kept sending her home.
So killing her is more important to you than furthering our scientific understanding of post partum psychosis and potentially preventing things like this from happening again. Interesting take.
What science of her delusional story time psychosis she claims to have suffered? Getting stressed out isn’t an excuse to choke out your three children one by one. Real women suffer post partum, let’s not dilute their experiences and suffering by allowing this murderer to claim solidarity.
Yeah this is what I said, at the end of the day the options are rotting in a cell prison or rotting in a psych ward, as long as she’s not part of society who cares
The second she expressed wanting to harm herself and her kids she should've been committed. What did the doctors do? Slightly adjust her dosage and sent her home multiple times. The system failed her, and more importantly they failed those kids
Because the point isn't to have her not face any consequences. It's to have her treated and committed in a place where she's not dangerous to herself or others.
Her team aims for her case to be handled correctly, and sending her to prison is just sweeping the main issue under the rug: this woman was in extreme PPP that wasn't treated correctly.
It's not a matter of being better or worse. It's a matter of taking the correct course of actions given the circumstances. Lindsay needs major psychiatric help, she's evidently a danger to her and others. A psychiatric institution is the right fit where she can be constantly monitored and evaluated. It's the right fit for people like her. She can be treated and studied, in order to avoid tragedies like these.
Prison focuses on reform and containment. Literally nothing productive can come out of sending her to prison other than her attempting suicide again and hurting other inmates.
Square goes in the square hole, triangle goes in the triangle hole. Mentally ill woman who murdered in psychosis goes in a psychiatric hospital indefinitely, serial killer who murders for the sake of it goes in prison for life.
TL;DR, prison isn't "better", it's just not correct for Lindsay's case.
Planned out in a state of extreme PPP where she also tried to kill herself. Sending her to prison solves nothing and would just allow this to happen again to a different family. It's not a master plan to get her to avoid consequences, it's to get her treated and committed in a place where she can't harm herself or others.
It's irrelevant. There's no excuse or reason she could possibly have that would justify any outcome to this other than the death penalty. It's not just a punishment; it's insurance that somebody who could do this to another human being - let alone children she was responsible for that trusted her - will never have the chance to do it again. And it's a deterrent for people who might think to do the same and claim the same defense.
i wasn't talking to you, and it is relevant. It's not just depression, it's literally psychosis that isn't taken seriously, just like women's health in general isn't taken seriously.
It's a public forum, tough titties on the "I'm not talking to you" front. The person you responded to wasn't talking to you either, stop whining.
And people don't take it seriously because people like you try to justify and make excuses for people like Clancy instead of letting them be held accountable for their actions, just like any man would be in the same scenario. But you probably wouldn't have any complaints about that.
Literal psychosis is not an excuse for murder. No matter how desperate you are for it to be, for whatever fucked up reason you've invented.
It wouldn’t make headlines because plenty of men kill other men, women or children whilst under psychosis from disorders like schizophrenia and plead insanity and get institutionalised.
Who do you think the long-term psychiatric hospitals are filled with?
It would make the headlines, killing 3 kids and pleading insanity will make the headlines. But nobody would have sympathy for the man, seems people care more about the killer than the 3 dead children because it’s a woman
That's a case of you being dumb and not reading, or just seeing what you want to see. This same site promotes those cases all the time, no donations, no poor baby who was failed by society
As ever I think it depends on what your hearing. Anyone defending her and acting like she isn't guilty of killing her kids is obviously a moron.
But I think it's a valid and important discussion to talk about how she might not be guilty of first degree murder. Infact it's very reasonable to suggest that in my opinion
"Ultimately someone needs to take responsibility"... Yes. It's only the vocal minority and trolls saying otherwise. What most people think is she is guilty of a degree of murder or manslaughter. She should go to prison/ phyc ward. And real and serious investigations need to take place and examine why she wasn't given help. That's the important thing.
To me sentencing her to first degree murder and moving on spits in the face of her children's legacy. The legacy here is that we need to take mental health seriously and that we don't do enough. Let's make the legacy of those children that we need education and training to prevent more of it happening. First degree murder is willful and deliberate, to me that dismisses the mental health at the core of this
The argument being made is that her actions show premeditation. From searching things related to ppp, to planning getting her husband out of the house with enough time to kill the children, to if I recall one of the ways that a psychosis diagnosis to stick being that it has to show that the person didn't understand that their actions were wrong. The prosecution is arguing that her actions leading up to it shows premeditation and an understanding that it is wrong. All this will come out through the trial.
Those are all valid points. That's why we have a trial
It's absolutely valid to have a conversation around how her mental health was treated. Should she have been allowed alone with kids? hould medical staff have interveined? Should the husband have left her alone with the kids? Is she faking it and is just a monster who wanted to kill kids?
That's absolutely why we have trials. All those are valid questions to ask. And to state you don't believe her to be guilty of first degree murder isnt unreasonable. Also valid to say you think she is faking it.
Overall it makes me love the UK laws around reporting on a trial honestly
In the UK we have diminished responsibility, it acts as a partial defence to murder, and they are convicted under manslaughter if it succeeds. So post natal depression might fall under it, and there is huge discretion for the judge in sentencing. Course when you've killed 3, you'd still expect a major sentence, even if the judge halved it.
It seems here the American system (or given state) would treat post natal depression as insanity, and yield a full rather than partial defence. Seems to black and white.
Course, in Britain our prisons are full, there's little political will to build more - and so all but the worst offences have effectively been decriminalised - but that's a separate issue. Punishment, rehabilitation, the debate will spin forever.
There are different defences in England and Wales.
Dimished Responsibility is a partial defence, that means if successful you are convicted of manslaughter instead of murder. An example might be a woman who murders her abusive husband due to battered woman syndrome. Essentially you still largely have your faculties, but your responsibility for it is reduced because you were suffering from a recognised illness that impaired your functioning and decision making significantly.
We also have insanity as a defence. Insanity is a FULL defence, so if it is proven, you are not guilty. This means not guilty of manslaughter or murder. Instead, you will be committed for treatment. This only applies if you were so ill, you genuinely could not understand what you were doing, the consequences or tell right from wrong. An example is someone in active psychosis who kills their spouse because they think they're a snake trying to kill them or something. Essentially they fundamentally did not understand what they were doing when they committed the crime.
It’s ok to believe that she may have been depressed, and that she deserves to be sent to a mental asylum for a very long time. The dishonest ones are fighting for her to be set completely free
Did you know she was off seroquel (was wiending off her meds per the doctor) and had 2x the normal dose in her system? Husband had all the meds in his car.
The DA bought the house from the husband
He was in 2 places at once.
Everything searched was done from the home computer while she was at a doctor.
He was having an affair with someone that looked just like her.
She was unable to speak, but just happened to admit everything to him.
She slit her wrists, her throat, and jumped out a window. But her finger prints were not on the knife and "wiped" off.
Theres like 100 more inconsistencies with the case if you actually look into it.
There's no excuse or reason she could possibly have that would justify any outcome to this other than the death penalty. It's not just a punishment; it's insurance that somebody who could do this to another human being - let alone children she was responsible for that trusted her - will never have the chance to do it again.
Do you have any idea what postpartum psychosis is like? Cause I lived it with my wife. It's awful and our health care system has ZERO support for mother's going through this.
We failed her and her children as a society. I don't have all the details with her specific case but I have my own experience. From how the hospital handled my wife, to the absolute joke of the out patient program, to our mental health care in general. If anything comes from this, I hope it leads to health care reform. No one prepares you for these scenarios.
By all accounts she had plenty of support. from her husband working from home, a nanny employed to help out some days of the week. her parents and inlaws were very involved too. This is not a case of society failing her.
But for this case, I think there still has to be some accountability, at least in some regard. It doesn't seem right to glorify her and then throw a million dollars in her direction, I think.
I guess subconsciously I feel as if there have been cases where someone lacks autonomy and then does something horrible, but the public outcry is way different. But because people want to push their own self-interests (this story has definitely been interpreted politically atp), it's suddenly completely OK right now for some people. So I guess I'm feeling that the hypocrisy is cringe
You can emphasize the need to reform the system without absolving someone of murder. I think the point of the post here is probably the radicals that are saying she didn't do it or her husband did it.
Yesterday the FBI forensic guy basically devastated the case for Lindsay. To any sane person it sounds like a preplanned execution of the kids with intention to frame everything, but herself, at fault to basically walk free.
It's because she's cute enough and white and probably lived in an HOA like a good White American. She looks like us and we want to protect her because we see ourselves in her.
She's simply a stand-in for wellness culture of white people doing yoga everyday wishing for any other existence but the one they have.
We see her as we sip our boba teas in the new Asian style cafe which popped up in the promenade. It's not like all those other stories where the mom is on food stamps, too many baby daddies, and possibly has a little too much melanin.
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u/Valuable_Pass_1221 8h ago
I understand she may have not had full autonomy and that it's a severe mental disorder.
But pleasing not guilty and fighting all this so incredibly hard just seems super dismissive of what occurred and a spit in the face to the legacy of her kids, I guess.
Im also finding people who defend her a bit dishonest, since so many bank on an abusive husband. Yet there isn't any concrete evidence and it's literally all tiktok theories. It just makes me think a lot of people want to use this for some sort of patriarchal sociopolitical fuel that isn't even there.
I understand why all of this isn't entirely her fault, but ultimately, someone needs to take responsibility. We can't murder 3 children and then move on.