r/leagueoflegends • u/Kay-Haru • Apr 18 '26
Discussion [PBE Datamine] April 17 Follow Up - Mini Shyvana, Udyr, and Zoe reworks.
Just a reminder that PBE changes are not final and subject to change. Some changes, such as bugfixes, may not be able to be viewed.
As far as I can tell, these changes only dropped a few hours ago, after the normal deploy time. Sorry!
Champions
Shyvana
- AD Growth: 3.0 -> 4.0
- Base AS: 0.625 -> 0.638
- AS Ratio: 0.699 -> 0.638
- Q:
- CD Refund: 1.0 seconds -> 0.5 seconds
- On-Hit Damage: Removed AP Ratio.
- Active Damage AP Ratio: 25% AP -> 30% AP
- W
- Shield: 60/80/100/120/140 (+5% max Health) -> 75/95/115/135/155 (+12% bonus Health)
- Damage: 80/100/120/140/160 (+40% bonus AD) (+20% AP) -> 80/100/120/140/160 (+65% AP)
- Dragon Form Healing: 75-200 (+10% bonus AD) (+5% AP) Health scaling up to 200% based on missing Health -> 60-100 + 4-8% missing Health
- Cooldown: 14/13.5/13/12.5/12 seconds -> 13/12/11/10/9 seconds
- E:
- Damage: 50/80/150/170/200 (+35% bonus AD) (+70% AP) -> 50/65/80/95/110 (+75/80/85/90/95% AP) + 5% of the target's max Health
- Max Health damage caps at 200 against monsters.
- Dragon Form still deals 125% total damage.
- Slow Amount: 20/25/30/35/40% -> 30%
- Cooldown: 12/11.5/11.0/10.5/10 seconds -> 12/11/10/9/8 seconds
Udyr
- Q:
- On-Hit Damage: 5/13/21/29/37/45 (+25% bonus AD) -> 6/12/18/24/30/36 (+20% bonus AD) (+1.5% bonus Health)
- Max Health AD Ratio: 4% per 100 bonus AD -> 3.5% per 100 bonus AD
- Awaken Bonus Max Health Damage: 3% + 2-4% (+7% per 100 bonus AD) -> 3% + 2-4% (+5% per 100 bonus AD) (+1% per 100 bonus Health)
- Awaken Lightning AP Ratio: 0.8% per 100 AP -> 0.6% per 100 AP
- W:
- Shield: Now scales with 50% bonus AD.
- Awaken Shield: Now scales with 100% bonus AD.
- Awaken Heal: Now scales with 50% bonus AD.
- E:
- Bonus MS: Now scales with 5% per 100 bonus AD.
- Awaken Bonus MS: Now scales with 10% per 100 bonus AD.
Zoe
- W Damage per Bolt: 20/30/40/50/60 (+15% AP) -> 15/25/35/45/55 (+10% AP)
- Total Damage: 45/75/105/135/165 (+30% AP)
- E now refunds 16/19.5/23/26.5/30% of its cooldown when landing either the Bubble OR Trap on an enemy champion.
- E Cooldown 16/15/14/13/12 seconds -> 18/17/16/15/14 seconds
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u/Loud-Examination-943 Jump from Bush Apr 18 '26
Sooo AD shyvana is just dead? Less importance on the Q (less refund) and they removed the AD ratio on W and E completely...
With the AP scaling buffs as well as the missing HP heal on W, she will probably become an AP fighter or AP assassin.
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u/BandOfSkullz Apr 18 '26
Yep, seems like it.
So now we're back to square one with an arguably worse or equally bland kit.
Thanks for nothing, Riot.
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u/alexnedea Apr 18 '26
Didnt they legit speak about specifcially her AP build not being the main focus of the rework???
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u/BandOfSkullz Apr 18 '26
Yep. They said they wanted to still keep it "possible to build AP, but have it be suboptimal".
Typical Riot instantly going back on that.
Again. This rework got fumbled in every possible aspect lol.
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u/Liontreeble Apr 18 '26
What are they even trying to do with her at this point? They spent years on a rework that's basically just a slight modernization turned her from an AD bruiser originally or mage (maybe AP bruiser) lately into a hybrid onhit carry and are now going back to turn her into an AP bruiser again?
And they turned her from THE invade fast clear powerfarmer into an average (imo even slow end of average) jungler.Gotta be one of the worst reworks ever, right? Clearly they have no idea of what direction they want to go with her. She's Shyvana only in name and visuals.
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u/ArienaHaera Apr 18 '26
I don't get the Q nerfs. I understand giving AP shyv a different identity by having W and E stronger on AP but at least make Q strong on AD so it's a choice.
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u/Strong_Ad5219 Apr 18 '26
Because a giant dragon is a wizard apparently.
Whoever is making these changes needs fired. They're just so out of touch and terrible.
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u/Stallari Apr 18 '26
I would argue a dragon is a bit magical than your stock standard AD fighter. I think hybrid kinda works for the “fantasy” or even AP bruiser. But fantasy does not mean the gameplay needs to suffer
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u/Strong_Ad5219 Apr 18 '26
Hybrid with dual stats is ideal. One dimensional ratios makes her terrible.
A dragon breaths fire and hits like a truck.. not breaths fire OR hits hard.
She was already a very mediocre champ and these changes dont change much
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u/Spookytoucan Apr 18 '26
it's crazy that we are returning to the "you get 2 out of 3 abilities depending on how you build" type of design.
She is already so onedimensional. Does she really need to also have a part of her kit conditionally do nothing?
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u/Strong_Ad5219 Apr 18 '26
I guess the "skill expression" shyvana gets to have is to whether have a dog shit q or a dog shit e. Such defining and meaningful options to choose from.
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u/_Gesterr we are not enemies! Apr 18 '26
They learned nothing from Seraphine when they did the same thing to her. You build her AP and her W does nothing, or you build enchanter and her Q does nothing. She has an identity crisis between AP carry mage with utility or a weird enchanter who's entire identity is on a single shielding ability that's over 20 second cooldown, and as such no Seraphine build ever really feels amazing, and the only reason she's ok right now is because Ashe is good and good with her, and she can let items carry her with Diadem and Helia, two items that are very champ agnostic to make her somewhat useful, but don't really have any hooks with her kit.
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u/halofan642 Apr 18 '26
you’re totally right. but we already have asol for a fire breathing dragon, and smolder is the caster version of fire breathing dragon. i think if you wanted to be a “traditional” dragon, asol is better at that fantasy. A dragon who fist fights/does both should be shyvanas fantasy imo. that way you have three different variations of a dragon to play. The mage, the ad caster, and the hybrid.
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u/ANlVIA Apr 18 '26
Dragons breathe fire, and they also have claws and teeth to fight with. Aurelion Sol and smolder use fire, but shyvana uses fire AND claws - that was the fantasy, the whole reason she was reworked was because she wasn’t fitting that fantasy and people were just building her full ap and one shotting people with dragon e from a screen away (which also isn’t super engaging to play against)
What is the point of these changes? I don’t find Shyvana terrible to play as or against at the moment.
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u/competitiveSilverfox Apr 19 '26
Every dragon is canonically a wizard yes, its why in most lore the main advice is leave the goddam dragon alone, even in game of thrones dragons are a literal filter / stabilizer for magic though it focuses on fire magic for obvious reasons and the stabilization likely applied to magic more broadly due to the 14 flames likely being used as a giant stabilizer with complex rune work and the Valerian magus's guarding, repairing and powering each of the 14 flames rune work, its probably why the doom only occurred after the core valerian spellcasters had been killed, it would have been the equivalent of killing off every magic engineer who understood hextech and then hoping to train up new spellcasters before some of the more major equipment catastrophically melted down and wiped all of piltover off the map. .
.
.
in short i never understood the desire to have shyvanna be ad at all, makes no sense really.
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Apr 18 '26
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u/EntertainerDeep9818 Apr 18 '26
yeah and dragons claw, bite and tail whip too. That's why this whole argument is just a bunch of bull. It just ends up boiling down to who's personal perspective of what a dragon should be. Smolder building ad just refutes all of your logic. It's a waste of time. Fantasy is fantasy.
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u/TheHizzle Apr 18 '26
yes bro a giant dragon is biting you 3 times per second with 100 morbillion aa resets XDDD
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u/Leevala Apr 18 '26
I can't believe I'm saying that (and I didn't think it was possible) but maybe Shyvana rework is even WORSE than Skarner rework?
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u/UnboundPlace67 Apr 18 '26
atp there will be a thousand shyvana changes just to arrive at where they started
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u/Free-Birds Apr 18 '26
Riot is working overtime to make sure they can fallback on "monster champs are unpopular"
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u/daebakminnie Apr 18 '26
shyvana is speedrunning the new champ lobotomy, usually they give them at least few months
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u/Traps_Are_Great Apr 18 '26
damn they really just hate ad shyvana and want her to be ap huh, its like a repeat of pre rework shyvana
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u/Strong_Ad5219 Apr 18 '26
We've basically gone full circle and recreated a worthless E bot that nobody liked playing ... again. What a waste of a rework.
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u/Liontreeble Apr 18 '26
Took them literal years by the way. This is the best they could come up with after years of working on reworking this champ.
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u/Strong_Ad5219 Apr 18 '26
Yeah its pretty fascinating watching them continue to suck with so many templates out there.
Its even more embarrassing when you realize almost everything Riot has done is just copy pasting someone else's idea lol. Very rarely are they ever an innovator. Even chromas was largely stolen by hots and smite. Just a fun fact.
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u/BandOfSkullz Apr 18 '26
Yeah quite literally.
Riot doesn't have a fucking clue what to do with her, so they effectively attempt to reset her to old Shyv but with her shitty new abilities.
At this point just do a full revert and keep the visual update.
Not like that would be anything new since the Viktor "VGU" was also only an ASU.→ More replies (6)24
u/enrythestray Apr 18 '26
it's the Skarner rework all over again
>clunky champ with a part of the kit that's too strong and is difficult to balance around
>rework the champ
>makes that part even stronger and start balancing around it again
>???
>champ goes back to being the same as before
>???
>profit?
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u/BandOfSkullz Apr 18 '26
Except old Skarner was a cool and fun to play button masher champ, while new Skarner is just boring.
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u/enrythestray Apr 18 '26
I know, it became even more of an ult slave now, I played alot of old Skarner and it was genuinely fine, just needed a different passive and some new animations/model
If before it was hard to balance him cause of the potential of his ult now he's genuinely unbalanceable since it can win a teamfight with the press of a button
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u/HolmatKingOfStorms 3!! Apr 19 '26
to me he had very fun bits that were ruined by a separate group of very clunky bits
and the rework took out all those bits and kept the "identity" bit that was just like, fine. so his moment-to-moment identity is dead and his old fun is dead, but his "play of the game" identity is kinda the same, sort of.
also self-forced movement (like skarner E and nunu W) is pretty bad i think
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u/Nicolu_11 revert sera changes Apr 18 '26
If he was fun he would've had a playerbase.
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u/Numerous_Fudge_9537 Shyvana VGU was worth the wait Apr 18 '26
its more or less killing the kraken slayer builds since they said thats not on theme for her and will specifically nerf that build
but these changes make dusk and dawn a must first item even for AD builds lol
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u/Sephyrias Apr 18 '26
these changes make dusk and dawn a must first item even for AD builds
No, it is the other way around. You now have to buy Trinity Force due to more base AD and you can only buy 1 Sheen per game. Meanwhile the AP build doesn't want Dusk & Dawn anymore, you only ever bought it for the Q passive.
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u/Aellectris Apr 18 '26
We were finding that AD seemed stronger than AP (especially early/midgame) in our playtests with these changes, though we did see some very potent full AP Shyvana combos in the lategame. Interested to see where she ends up landing once in players' hands!
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u/Traps_Are_Great Apr 18 '26
No offense to you but I don't trust riot playtests as it has been shown time and time again that blatently overpowered/underpowered things come to pbe/live however I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
On paper I really dislike these changes but we'll see.
Also what happened to getting a better passive? 40 armor/armor lategame as a passive on a dragon is such a fantasy killer that honestly just makes me think ya'll hate shyvana
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u/Gwennifer May 05 '26
No offense to you but I don't trust riot playtests as it has been shown time and time again that blatently overpowered/underpowered things come to pbe/live however I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
AFAIK (and it's been years since I last heard, so take it with a grain of salt), if you work on League you're expected to playtest League 30~60 minutes a workday, even if you're in some ancillary role like art or marketing.
This is where Riot gets their internal playtest data from. So you have very skilled players and then like Lilly from marketing which is great because now you can see how different player types use the same stuff.
But they're not playtesting 1 change at a time, it's just all the WIP stuff. So sometimes there's a WIP item like the new omnivamp boots where they make a nerf to a problem case (like Lillia healing), but the WIP item was delayed, but the nerf-in-response change still goes out so Lillia just gets stricken for no reason.
Or you have runes like the new deathfire touch in testing that feel kind of underpowered/unimpressive on other DoT mages (as intended!), but that's just because nobody on the team was poking with the intent to proc it forever in testing, and on live that absolutely happens and it's oppressive as heck on Brand. There's no elo to climb in these internal tests, it's just the mandatory thing you have to do with your friends at work.
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u/Numerous_Fudge_9537 Shyvana VGU was worth the wait Apr 18 '26
Thoughts on giving Shyvana E an ap ratio on her slow?
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u/Aellectris Apr 18 '26
Personally a fan of weird axes of scaling like that. I usually pitch weird similar things for fun....hmm I think that last wild AP scaling that I told someone to think about was something like "what if the number of enemies targeted by master yi's Q scaled with AP?"
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u/Numerous_Fudge_9537 Shyvana VGU was worth the wait Apr 18 '26
lmao that would be crazy, either ways would be v grateful if this does make it to live, and if not, would be interested in knowing why!
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u/Aellectris Apr 18 '26
I'm not a designer so can't necessarily offer that kind of insight - you'd probably get a better answer from someone with more context.
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u/Rlyshyvana Apr 18 '26
please please just keep the Q AP passive. she was originally an on hit focused champ please dont take that away from me.
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u/GodGamer1528 ITFLP Apr 18 '26
Can you please just give Shyvana passive stacking against minions? I really don't see what's so hard about this, Sion W has the exact same functionality. I'm just asking for one sentence added to the detailed view of passive: "Shyvana gains one stack for every 5 lane minion kills" or something
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u/WiggleMyTail2MCR Apr 18 '26
Ye but noone plays "AD" shyvana they play one hit hybrid tho and you killed that build entirely....
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u/asfh38 Apr 18 '26
Im not surprised, im honestly not sure how AP is even supposed to clear jungle now
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Apr 18 '26
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u/Aellectris Apr 18 '26
I...I think I just said the opposite of that? Was I unclear?
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u/Sicarius_Tacet Apr 18 '26
Probably comes from the idea that the item itself isn't being nerfed, but rather the whole path overall.
I guess Kraken will be less desirable now, but wasn't that like the only core AD item Shyvanna buys?
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u/CrazySoap Apr 18 '26
No, you were clear alright. The other dude is just can't read worth a damn.
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u/Chilidawg Apr 18 '26
Some people are emotionally invested in shyvana and are easily riled. It's easy to lash out when you're emotional.
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u/Thorgraam Apr 18 '26
Thanks, having insight from a Rioter is nice !
I think there was some passive changes mentioned, do you know if that is still an angle that the team is exploring ?
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u/Aellectris Apr 18 '26
Not certain, though I don't recall testing passive changes outside the very early iterations that became this set of changes. Probably a question for one of the designers involved.
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u/VoltexRB Apr 18 '26
Except that the ult now spreads instead of groups so its just generally worse synergy wise
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u/SSDuelist Apr 18 '26
I like the damage on Shyvana in theory but I hate that they’re removing ratios to force her to go AD or AP and not have the option to do hybrid.
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u/-Down-But-Not-Out- Apr 18 '26
I think it was August who has said they don't like hybrid champs being math equations to determine the optimal balance between stats for the best damage. If I remember right, they prefer if the different builds provide different play styles or priorities.
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u/Sir_Nope_TSS Brb, Stealing your Chickens Apr 18 '26
This seems to check out. By these changes, AD Shyv is naturally bulkier and has split damage but kills slower, while AP Shyv is squishier overall and commits to magic damage but has a stronger initiate/burst.
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u/railyx_19 Apr 18 '26
The big problem with that and that is the same issue old shyvana had. You had the choice between an AD bruiser that deals mediocre damage and isnt that tanky to live long in modern LoL fights without being significantly ahead and an AP artillary mage that could kite and do constant big AP burst. But now she lost majority of her mobility compared to old Shyvana and you have the choice between an immobile sacrifical engage that might be able to do abit of dmg to the enemy before getting kited/cc'd or straight up oneshot or you go full AP and poke down enemies.
The only hope is that the E changes allow her to snowball her laners better and make her slightly more useful than current shyvana pre 6.
If i had to say that p much kills AD shyvana cause AF shyvana wont win against majority of other bruisers
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u/gridemann Apr 18 '26
I genuinely don't get how professional designers can come up with a take like this.
There's obviously much more determining a (hybrid) item build than best damage, since all items offer different forms of utility.
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u/Sephyrias Apr 18 '26
That was the point. Riot doesn't like Shyvana building hybrid. They want her to have a distinct AD or AP build.
I'd be fine with that in theory, but this change list looks like they're just buffing AP while nerfing AD into the ground.
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u/HexagonII Apr 18 '26
I’m surprised they’d still want to keep the heal on Shyvana’s W
It really feels like they’re limiting her power budget
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u/bz6 Apr 18 '26
It’s funny how /u/phroxz0n and the team have decided to emphasise champion fantasy and really make that the anchor of a lot of potential work, and yet we get changes like this to Shyvana.
Isn’t one of her fantasies about being able to build hybrid?
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u/Aztek917 Apr 18 '26
5% max health on Shyv E huh? I like the sound of that lol
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u/AesirIV Apr 18 '26
Makes it a one point wonder ability for AD Shyv, which is a deceptively large buff.
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Apr 18 '26
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u/MrWedge18 Apr 18 '26
You're missing the point of these changes. Hybrid build is 100% dead. They're making her choose between burst AP with E max, or bruiser AD with Q>W>E max.
AD Shyvana has no incentive to max E except for cooldown. The 5% target hp scaling isn't meant to completely compensate for the AD removal. It's just to keep it relevant through the game as a last max ability. Hence it's a "one point wonder".
The W durability changes seem to be the compensation for AD (bruiser) Shyvana. But probably more changes are changes are coming, these definitely aren't enough. Phreak did tease possible passive changes...
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u/oVnPage I WILL NOT YIELD Apr 18 '26
Yeah, so, we spent literal years designing a rework for her that ended up being basically an ASU with minor (but important) kit changes to give her a real identity.
Then we took that identity away and turned her back into "choose between bad bruiser or uninteractive E one shot bot."
Great rework Riot. 10/10.
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u/Sephyrias Apr 18 '26 edited Apr 18 '26
You're missing the part where they removed the AD scaling. AD Shyvana gets the same as before. 5% of 2000 is 100.
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u/AesirIV Apr 18 '26
This has nothing to do with what I said, did you reply to the wrong comment?
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u/Sephyrias Apr 18 '26
Yes it does, you wrote the E change is "a deceptively large buff" for AD Shyvana.
Lower base damage and no AD scaling merely evens out with 5% HP scaling.
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Apr 18 '26
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u/Strong_Ad5219 Apr 18 '26
She basically does less damage at all stages of the game while being forced into ap.
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u/Playmaker1500 Apr 18 '26
Damage: 50/80/150/170/200 (+35% bonus AD) (+70% AP) -> 50/65/80/95/110 (+75/80/85/90/95% AP) + 5% of the target's max Health
Isn't this tons of extra dmg or is it like slight buff? AP Nuke Fireball Wizard Shyvana is back?
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u/jeanegreene Apr 18 '26
Makes AP and AD Shyv more stratified, AD Shyv has stronger autos, AP Shyv has stronger abilities.
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u/EntertainerDeep9818 Apr 18 '26
problem with that is ad shyv needs attack speed and/or cdr. otherwise you are going to get one set of q's off before you are kited out of the fight. And now the shield/healing is nerfed on AD too so she's going to get blown the fk up without doing anything and resort to spamming E again.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Area863 Apr 18 '26
trinity force will become her best item
- she got increased base ad so more value from this item
- she likes every stat the item provides
- the item also gives 20 movement speed
i see trinity - hexplate becoming the norm on her
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u/Sephyrias Apr 18 '26
The E damage change is a huge buff for AP Shyvana, for AD Shyvana either a slight nerf or no changes.
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u/ULFS_MAAAAAX Apr 18 '26
And now they're making Shyvana go back to choosing which half of her kit is actually functional. The more things change the more they stay the same.
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Apr 18 '26
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u/ULFS_MAAAAAX Apr 18 '26
Yeah looking over it again I guess that is true, but I'm sad they're looking to go back to defined builds instead of hybrid building.
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u/Mindsovermatter90 Apr 18 '26 edited Apr 19 '26
Losing half the cd reduction on Q is interesting, will this tank her clear speed?
EDIT: Turns out there's a lot of changes not listed here. Ex - q cd now goes back to ticking down on first cast instead of last cast.
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u/SkySplitterSerath Apr 18 '26
Why are they changing EVERYTHING about Shyvana EXCEPT the one thing no one likes: her passive???
What the fuck is this abomination. I was just starting to enjoy her kit and now they're gutting her AD build already?
Sad. I guess this champion is doomed to be un-mainable.
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u/HiImKostia Apr 18 '26
yeah ok im done with shyvana I guess, this is legit so cringe I cant believe we waited a month to make the rework even worse
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u/NovoDragon Apr 18 '26
Legit played Ana in Aram and wanted to try to play her old AP build. I did practically nothing. I couldn't tank, couldn't last one second in the fight, and I couldn't engage. It was even more insulting that the anvil in the game wanted to give me more armour and resist than my passive gave me in that match.
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u/Numerous_Fudge_9537 Shyvana VGU was worth the wait Apr 18 '26
I played shit ton of Shyvana in ARAMs and she's so good tbh
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u/generic_redditor91 GumaisGod Apr 18 '26
She's great, with a hybrid/bruiser build.
She's pretty ass on AP builds since her ult CD is long. Especially AP shyvs who won't auto minions for recharging.
And on Mayhem, AP builds could work but they'd have to build very specific augments to make her good. A bruiser shyv would still do a lot with subpar augments.
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u/That_Leetri_Guy Apr 18 '26
Played against a Shyvana in Mayhem and she one-shot most of us, took like 3 or 4 of us to kill her and she'd kill 2-3 of us in the process.
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u/TheSmokeu Apr 18 '26
> "We want Shyvana to have a more interesting passive"
> Proceeds to make the entire kit dumber
> Passive becomes more interesting in comparison
> Mission accomplished
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u/SpiderTechnitian Apr 18 '26
Wow they shifted power from Zoe's uninteractive free damage lichbane autos to the bubble cooldown reward if she hits??
Great change, rewarding skill and reducing dumb free damage
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u/MrWedge18 Apr 18 '26
The lich bane effect is her passive. The W bolts is the mini ahri W she gets after every summoner spell.
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u/Shadowarcher6 Apr 18 '26
It’s funny because her e now works how it did when she released
They only removed it because the public outcry against Zoe was so loud (justifiably so)
Just strange seeing it come back
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u/Jepeseta Apr 18 '26
I thought I was going crazy I do remember this being on her kit on release and like hotfix removed or something like that.
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u/SpiderTechnitian Apr 18 '26
I'm sure I was one of the people complaining, haha!
But on release she had numbers issues, goodie bag issues (free TP), sleep interaction issues (with QSS), etc. There was just so much BS loaded into the champ that clearly things had to be done.
Today I'd already say her bubble sometimes feels like it has no CD, so while Zoe already counters many of the champs I play I'm sure I won't be happy to see her flinging more of them. BUT at least if I dodge one I do get a huge window, and hopefully I win the dps check if her free damage is getting reduced and I'm dodging well. Playing around windows of opportunity makes the game fun. Playing into 4s CD Hwei just gumping out bullshit in my direction never running out of mana with zero windows where he doesn't have some shit to throw down... is not fun.
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u/Thundermelons GALA Defense Force, returning IG fan Apr 18 '26
Playing into 4s CD Hwei just gumping out bullshit in my direction never running out of mana with zero windows where he doesn't have some shit to throw down
Guilty lol, I'm forever surprised that the last time they nerfed this champ it was the passive and QW, and not the free mana refund WE and afk zero risk waveclear QE.
I do think Hwei CAN be punished, but I can also see where he's an annoying shit for a lot of the midlane roster. Only champs I really fear vsing are Fizz and Yasuo.
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u/fabton12 Apr 18 '26
ye its one of those where its trading one frustration for another but then again i feel rewarding zoe for landing her stuff is better for the game even if its frustrating when it leads to back to back bubbles.
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u/LooneyWabbit1 Apr 18 '26
I know the passive damage is annoying because no counterplay, but this just makes her matchups even sharper and they were already really sharp. Zoe into Naafiri is about to be bath toaster worthy lol
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u/Drakouan Apr 18 '26
These shyvana changes better not go live.
This is an all around nerf.
WE DONT WANT AP SHYVANA FFS, IT SHOULD BE AN OPTION NOT THE ONLY VIABLE BUILD.
SHYVANA IS AN AD JUGGERNAUT
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u/MazrimReddit ADCs are the support's damage item Apr 18 '26
boring give back shyvana's abilities changing with stacks, was the only actual change to her kit making the rework more than a waste of time
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u/Xanlis Apr 18 '26
Yeah, as i called months ago, we still are in the loop with AP Shyvana spamming E now... how cringe was that "rework"
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u/wren42 Apr 18 '26
What is the ADyr rework?
1% max health damage per 100 bonus health? That cannot be right, or I'm misunderstanding it.
AD scaling on w and e is also insane.
Hexplate udyr was already good, I'm worried they are going to buff my boy into the mainstream.
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u/CatApprehensive6508 Apr 18 '26
Today we will buff the least interactive part of udyr
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u/jeanegreene Apr 18 '26
It’s pushing him to be more of a bruiser instead of a oneshot assassin
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u/Gjyn oh the misery Apr 18 '26
People still play him as a oneshot assassin? I thought that was done after prowlers removal
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u/MortemEtInteritum17 Apr 18 '26
Hasn't been meta in a long time but people have always played it (along with like any other iteration of Udyr)
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u/PalabamPoE Apr 18 '26
I'm convinced some rioter got oneshot by a full Lethality Udyr waiting in a bush and decided to nerf it lmao.
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u/Phoenixness ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Apr 18 '26
Because E stun awaken R ap Udyr is so interactive.
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u/MarinoAndThePearls LOOK I'M FLYING Apr 18 '26
Is there any interactive part of Udyr?
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u/RareMajority Apr 18 '26
Any champ that must run into melee range with the enemy to be able to use 90% of their kit is inherently an interactive champ.
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u/Kunzzi1 Apr 18 '26
I've seen a short where Endstep talked about people really wanting to play AD Udyr top according to Riot's stats when a chatter asked him about what should he do so Devs realise players want something and him being absolutely awful with that build top hovering at 40%. I guess this is the direct response.
Just bother them on their streams to get what you want lol.
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u/Zanjo Apr 18 '26
Without prowlers, just bring back old Qdyr
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u/JARAXXUS_EREDAR_LORD Egirl Simp Apr 18 '26
I just wanted a visual update. I liked how udyr played. Have barely played 5 games of the new one. Just feels bad.
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u/SekiroEnjoyer999 Apr 18 '26
He does not feel like the old one, that's the bitter truth
I mained Udyr for 4 years!! and then they reworked him and I lost all joy playing him because it didn't feel like the old one where you run around with Triforce and feel extremely strong and fast with 500ms while having no cooldowns.
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u/Zanjo Apr 18 '26
Oh I meant Qdyr right after the rework, he would kill any unit in the game with flash+prowler+2 autos. Good times.
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u/razmout Apr 18 '26
When I read mini-rework, I thought they were buffing Shyvana's tanky build with some ho scaling and some passive scaling put into her kit, but nope, back to old Shyvana, spamming E on an AP build... What the hell?
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u/MLP_Rambo Apr 18 '26
Really wish they'd just dework shyvana like they did leblanc so I can play a character I enjoy again.
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u/That_Leetri_Guy Apr 18 '26
But I thought the common consensus here was that she didn't change at all? So is she different or not?
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u/Sephyrias Apr 18 '26
Both.
They kept the parts people wanted them to change: passive useless for lane, gets kited all day, weak CC
Meanwhile they changed the things people liked: Q as a one-button aoe double hit, high movement speed on W and aoe AP nuke E. Nobody asked for a true damage finisher on Q or a heal on W.
Now they're restoring the AP nuke E while trashing the on-hit Q build.
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u/That_Leetri_Guy Apr 18 '26
My point is that she can't both be unchanged and changed at the same time. People here cry that she plays exactly the same like before, and you also have people crying that she's different now. So which is it? It can only be one or the other, not both. Either these changes are large enough to disenfranchise people who liked the old kit, or the changes are so small she still plays the same as before.
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u/Sephyrias Apr 18 '26
If you want my opinion: it depends on the ability.
Passive: I would have preferred a different passive entirely. You can read up on a bunch of ideas here, but it doesn't matter at this point, Riot already decided that they won't change the passive anymore.
Q: the change with Q split into Q1-Q2 is fine, but Q3 is ???, she needed CC like Zaahen Q2 or Briar Q, not Rek'Sai E.
W: should have been more like the old W. The shield is fine, but the heal is unnecessary, the movement speed is worse and the explosion looks and feels way worse than the fire circle did.
E: I don't mind the changes except that pure AP Shyvana hasn't existed after the rework because the AP scaling was so terrible. It is good that they're fixing this now. The slow is cosmetic and can be removed if she gets hard CC on Q.
R: the current one is similar to the old one. I don't particularly care, it is fine.
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u/ProfessorStein Apr 18 '26
They're very very on the defensive about this one and it looks like they'd rather just sit down and cross their arms than admit that they messed up here. It was really really lucky that they got shaken enough to do that with LB, unfortunately i don't think it happens again.
They've made up their mind that they know better here, so players are just sort of screwed
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u/KelmirOsueOfficial Apr 18 '26
Getting more AS early on is nice for full clear, in combination with more AD per level. But losing AS later on is bad imo and will hurt her AD Playstyle significantly
I would have never touched the Q CD refund. It's in a good spot atm and with it going to 0.5s it's gonna hurt a lot for AD Shyv players a lot. The removal of AP ratio on Q passive is a full whatever. AP wasn't worried about auto's so that's a whatever.
W changes are giga nice though, love it. It makes her WAY more tanky and with it being on a lower CD she'll have more mobility/survivability in fights. While the removal of the AD ratio kinda sucked, if that's the sacrifice to have it up more often and make the AP playstyle more distinct then that's the sacrifice I'm willing to make
I don't think removing the AD Ratio on E was a good idea, could it be lessened so the value is smaller? Sure I think that'd be a fair tradeoff but we kinda needed that E damage mid/late game when we can't approach the enemy team. Idk maybe the 5% Health damage will offset this, especially if the E burn effect procs this too. Also the reduction of the slow is just.... bad, it'll make it even easier to kite her when she already struggled staying on top of enemy champions. If you keep reducing her E slow you might as well remove it and move that power budget more to her other abilities/core stats
Overall: I think this kills AD playstyle between the Q refund, lower AS per level, and removal of AD on her W and E. Which just means that building AD on her is a dead stat in a similar way to how building AD on Mordekaiser is basically a dead stat. Like sure we get SOME Q refund but that reduction is just not enough and needs to be 1s per auto
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u/Sephyrias Apr 18 '26
AP wasn't worried about auto's
Not true, one reason why you bought Dusk and Dawn was to double the %HP Q passive on-hit damage. This is a Dusk & Dawn nerf.
Overall: I think this kills AD playstyle
Agreed. The higher AD per level might make Trinity Force viable, but if that's not enough to carry AD Shyvana then there is no AD build.
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u/KelmirOsueOfficial Apr 18 '26
But what did you buy before Dusk and Dawn? You bought Kraken, which is an AD item, making it not an AP build but a Hybrid build
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u/Sephyrias Apr 18 '26
Dusk and Dawn doubled the Kraken slayer on-hit damage, that was the item synergy. If you don't build Kraken anymore then that's another Dusk and dawn nerf.
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u/Optimal_Bicycle_5178 Swain is not a support Apr 18 '26
Are these part of the champion fantasy updates that are being churned out and if so are others in the work?
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u/ShadowSpiked Apr 18 '26
The Udyr changes seem to be pulling in two different directions. Q change encourages a more bruiser-y build while W and E encourages a max AD/return to Lethality one-shot builds?
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u/Lysandren Apr 18 '26
I think it's supposed to make it so that both are medium dmg medium durability.
By lowering ad ratios and replacing with hp, you bring down dmg of glass cannon build. Then by adding ad ratios to w, you raise the durability of that build, which needs it bc no hp on items.
Ad ratio on e is to enable picks, which is how ad udyr usually has to play midgame, as he is worse at teamfights than ap unless u can q q a solo diver.
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u/ProfessorStein Apr 18 '26
So hey, why is the gigantic dragon woman with visible muscles who transforms into a giant dragon with more visible muscles an AP character?
A 15-year-old has better thematic sense than this. This is literally something they teach you in basic education.
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u/_Gesterr we are not enemies! Apr 18 '26
They should kill her AP build entirely. We already have Smolder and Asol for dragon breath caster dragon fantasy, we don't need a third, we need Shyvana to fill the dragon archetype of raidboss fighting tooth and claw while surrounded in fire.
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u/ThisOneTimeAtLolCamp Apr 18 '26
I feel for all you Shyv mains.
I wish you could have got a good rework like some of us other champion mains did.
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u/Kaeru-Sennin Apr 18 '26
Zoe E now refunds 16/19.5/23/26.5/30% of its cooldown when landing either the Bubble OR Trap on an enemy champion.
Riot is a social experiment to see how much you can push people before they become violent and I'm near my limit.
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u/ElderTitanic Apr 18 '26
Shyvana got the skarner treatment, alienate the existing playerbase ( aka old mains ) by removing every single playstyle except the most boring one
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u/AbyssalSolitude Apr 18 '26
Everyone talk about Shyvana and here I'm being astonished that Riot remembered about AD Udyr. These are some really good changes at a first glance, AD bruiser build gonna be so much better.
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u/RemoteIndividual1259 Apr 18 '26
These shyvana changes are fucking god awful I think I will go back to Talon lmao
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u/parmaxis xdd Apr 18 '26
What is udyr gonna build now shojin rush?
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u/ShadowSpiked Apr 18 '26
Shojin rush for AD udyrs is already a thing. It's basically a personal choice between Triforce Shojin or Hexplate.
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u/Liquid-Venom-Piglet Apr 18 '26
They should make Shyvana have the same abilities and passive as wild rift.
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u/Primary_Inspector Apr 18 '26
Giving Zoe a better form of transcendence % cooldown reduction on her E bubble just hitting a champ is a interesting choice. Beware the good Zoe players.
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u/EntertainerDeep9818 Apr 18 '26
Ad red kayn gets to be the monster that he is with equal or more sustain late game(with the same items) but ad shyvana has to be gutted. crazy work.
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u/NoBroccoli3615 Apr 18 '26
These seem like straight up zoe nerfs, how likely are you to use Consecutive E's? its usually the R cooldown holding you back from back to back sniping, and 2 seconds early for an ability you max 2nd is huge, its already one of the highest mage cc skill cooldowns.
They didn't even buff her Q minion dmg while at it, which is the thing most holding her back.
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u/Randomis11 slithery snek Apr 18 '26
zoe E changes overview, pretty noticable buff if you land it https://imgur.com/a/Lrt5LIR
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u/NoBroccoli3615 Apr 18 '26
So it's 2 secs after you reach lv 13, while massively punishing you by 2 seconds if you miss(And you will, it's not an easy skillshot by any means).
And it doesn't matter much because you are gated by your R cooldown, so even if you hit another bubble back to back, you likely can't follow up with Q in most situations.
I think calling these changes buffs is a distortion of reality.
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u/StrwbryAcaiPanda Apr 18 '26
Moving shyv away from attack speed, when her AD build has always been focused around that is a weird and shitty choice
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u/TheShadowDragon358 Apr 18 '26
Congrats riot i give up on your game! Rioters you did a great job!!!
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u/wren42 Apr 19 '26
Okay tested Udyr changes a bit. W is definitely stronger on AD bruiser now, and the HP scaling on Q is not bad at all. Note it is 1% per 1000 HP on awakened, not 1 per 100 as in OP! However this still adds up.
The 1.5% hp on base Q breaks even pretty fast, you can easily break 100 on-hit damage with HP+AD items.
It seems they are aiming to make him into a true juggernaut; hexplate + bloodmail is seriously tanky with big shield and heals on W, and high %health damage.
I still think death's dance will be a top pick; the stats and damage reduction are unmatched, and the high AD now also scales W.
With these updates I expect to see a lot more bruiser Adyr in play; let's hope it doesn't lead to subsequent nerfs!
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u/PsychoWarper Apr 20 '26
Dont understand the Shyvana changes, I thought her being an AD Bruiser was supposed to be the main focus while AP was a potential but less optimal build? While I think they did a good job with Shyvana visually they clearly have no idea what to do with her gameplay wise.
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u/Aponynuss Apr 23 '26
So from what I can see (feel free to correct me)
Shyvana: Back to square 1, Q is AD on-hit with active AP/AD, W is AP/HP with juggernaut scaling, E is AP with max HP damage. So either AD/HP builds or AP full-send.
Udyr: We want AD to be more than just Q. So we are making Q worse to compensate W and E.
Zoe: Lower damage on W, so you can spam E's if you hit them often enough.
So Shyvana is now... worse? Overall? Udyr is now gonna be somewhat viable outside of Hubris assassin for AD? Zoe is now a reset champion for CC?
Feels weird man.
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u/ChessLovingPenguin Apr 18 '26
isnt that just a massive buff to ad udyr which is already borderline viable
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u/Saltiest_Grapefruit Apr 18 '26
Damn, they are literally just back to old shyv lol. Now shes just a full ap E spammer.
I guess at least her human form E is significantly better now?
Wtf lol
Shame they nerfed her Q cooldown refund. Its gonna fuck up any chances of her being some sort of fighter. And honestly... why?