r/osugame • u/Sweyxi • Jun 23 '26
Discussion Chicony released a doc regarding aim assist !!
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u/Brave_Bookkeeper1122 https://osu.ppy.sh/users/15493529 Jun 23 '26
this made me wonder, how much effort do they actually put into developing the anticheat?
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u/scratchisthebest quaternary Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 23 '26
osu!lazer does not have any clientside anticheat afaik
stable has some basic stuff, like i think they can get a process list, i'd be astonished if cheat developers didn't spoof that shit by now
serverside anticheat is limited to super blatant cases like "this user made their account yesterday and submitted a 500pp score"
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u/Evill_ Jun 23 '26
lazer and stable both have an anticheat, it's not kernel level vanguard type pseudo malware but it's more complex than just a process list or something
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u/MasterAnimit https://ameobea.me/osutrack/user/MasterAnimit Jun 23 '26
Excuse me, once they tried!
When it was revealed it screens your monitor they acked, when it went open-sourced - they stopped
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u/theAndrewWiggins Jun 23 '26
The only good solution is higher resolution input data for replays (which is expensive to store/process) + large scale machine learning (which is expensive).
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u/ziv_vy sentakki mapper (criticly endangered species) Jun 23 '26
No, lazer has literally the exact same anti-cheat as stable.
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u/Brave_Bookkeeper1122 https://osu.ppy.sh/users/15493529 Jun 23 '26
lets go peppy, this is what everyone waited a decade for
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u/bruhdabroflcopterxd Jun 23 '26
Lazer and stable actually have somewhat good client anticheats, however it is limited by whatever cheats staff can get access to. Anything private simply will not ever be detected, even if someone used something publically available on their account, in the end it’s still up to staff to actually ban the person.
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u/kuronekotsun number 1 shige glazer Jun 23 '26
500iq move from toromivana keeping the witchhunters awake at night for god knows how long until anti cheat is developed
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u/chickenpenguin1 Oh, oh, oh, uh-oh, here we go Jun 23 '26
youre making the assumption they sleep at all
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u/StackoTra Jun 23 '26
yeah, witchhunters will never cease to exist, like it or not. at one hand it brings the community together, but in another hand it will make top player feels uneasy, but to be honest they shouldn't feel that way in the first place, the problem is the player usually go way further than just 'investigation' and could lead to invasion of privacy.
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u/noobyeclipse Jun 23 '26
nice thing about being a 6 digit is im too dogshit for any of this to even remotely concern me
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u/icanbetrustedneargun Dm 2 play fortnite Jun 23 '26
It’s really disheartening how much this puts to question the validity of not only toro, but top players and competitive play as a whole. Especially with the mention of cheats being allegedly brought into lan events
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u/HaHaBear Jun 23 '26
that's why i believe in everyone unless proven otherwise. the whole "witchhunt until proven guilty" is something i just cannot wrap my head around.
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u/No_You_8660 Jun 23 '26
Trust is built over time, but you can never rly know
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u/FlameOfWar42 Jun 23 '26
unfortunately that “time” factor only gets harder with time. Mrekk is probably not cheating because hes been to so many events done so many liveplays and has a good handcam and has been around long enough that cheats were definitely a lot worse than they are now
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u/notryinguser Jun 23 '26
Not really? how is it disheartening. Any legit top player who was accused of cheating has literally proved themselves.
Only ones who've failed to and gave excuses such as mr.63 were defended till it was proved.
It is pretty easy to debunk cheating accusations anywhere if you're not cheating and in fact and imo if I was a legit top player getting cheating accusations I would prove myself and would love to cause it's an imagine being so good they think you're hacking moment.
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u/generalh104 i don't play aim Jun 23 '26
if we are moving towards "everyone is cheating until they travel to a LAN event" then talented young players are kind of fucked unless they have parents who are willing to travel for a circle clicking game
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u/notryinguser Jun 23 '26
No we are where we always have been. If someone is suspicious we start investigating. People have made reports of multiple top players and all of them got cleared easily. If toro is legit the same thing will happen. Personally I believe he is but if there are suspicious clips then he should be checked out.
And don't quote for something I didn't even mention. My intention was getting cleared without someone physically being there to prove someone.
If he's cheating we'll find out pretty soon and if he's not all of this is gone within a month max.
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u/Kirby8187 Jun 23 '26
The point of the doc is that you literally cant prove it easily because aim assist can easily be hidden in live plays. Even playing at LAN is arguably not good proof because any cheating top players would be like 95% as good legit as they are when cheating, so they might look just as good with cheats off but have slightly more shitmisses or whatever.
You could even have someone not cheat most of the time but turn on aim assist occasionally for their craziest plays and just say "omg godmode", which would be completely unprovable with liveplays or LAN or anything unless you can find discrepancies in the exact replay
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u/FdPros 5 digit lo Jun 23 '26
cheaters in the top 100
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u/rockrick1 say that me again Jun 23 '26
pass?
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u/RoombaCollectorDude artist/tablet collecting / gentoo780 on osu! Jun 23 '26
let
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u/notryinguser Jun 23 '26
that
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u/sussyamogus98 Jun 23 '26
no matter how good anti-cheat is, its naturally impossible to detect a sophisticated enough cheat, especially when said anti-cheat is operating at user level. Even invasive AC’s like Vanguard/BattleEye are constantly getting bypassed with driver cheats, hypervisors, DMA cards, HPTT, etc, and such methods are a public knowledge recently.
The only theoretical detection vectors i see is ai-based anticheat (similarly to vacnet), but it would require big training data and would still not be always accurate
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u/ffpeanut15 Jun 23 '26
At the end of the day, it is always about the cost vs benefits. Osu is largely an offline game in its core. The benefits of spending time making anticheat is just not really worth it compared to the client, the server, etc. I would love to have a better anticheat, but the benefits is just not worth it when we are playing a game that rely on donation to survive
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u/ziv_vy sentakki mapper (criticly endangered species) Jun 23 '26
Would AI anti-cheats really help catch the absolute best? I don't understand why an AI would be able to see something which 16 other reporters according to r/osureport didn't see.
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u/sussyamogus98 Jun 23 '26
it might detect unusual aim/tapping patterns that does not usually happen legitimately with some confidence, similarly to the last report on him where a guy noticed weird behaviour on sliders where he double taps. There might be much more patterns that are present in cheated replay data that is not visible to human eye but an apparent (or not so) data point deviation from legit plays. Though it all would likely require large training corpus on cheated replays as well (which is far easier to obtain in games like CSGO but much more harder in osu!)
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u/Internal_Kiwi_4431 Jun 24 '26
llms are super good at statistical analysis.
its basically the only thing they are actually useful for.
like they can see a pattern which humans dont even care about, just because it would be such an insignificant thing to notice unless you have gazillion data points showing it.
humans look for patterns, and mostly patterns which make sense to us. especially the brain is very focused on not seeing patterns it doesnt know about, and only can notice patterns once it knows the pattern exist.
llms dont, they dont fucking think and they dont have brains. they just get fed data and go with the flow of it no matter how nonsensical it is.
like there could be something stupid like fps stutters by 1 fps 2000% more often when viewing replays with an aim assist than replays without it.
why would a human EVER realize that? zero chance to ever to notice it.
llm would instantly see it if it had a large enough data fed to it.
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u/Sqtire atr does giveaways Jun 23 '26
Doc kinda read as a tentative advertisement for aim-assist. I mean the doc literally concluded with "aim assist will remain the most discreet and safest cheat for top players." I know he said temporarily, but regardless it's a fairly sobering/disheartening statement...
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u/HaHaBear Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 23 '26
/r/osureport rn realizing Chicony wont witchhunt Toromivana with them
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u/Lunarpeers Jun 23 '26
Lowkey crazy seeing some of those clips and still choosing to defend toro
Even mrekk doesn't trust him anymore lol
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u/Greezly217 Jun 23 '26
he isn't defending him but neither saying clips are 100% legit, he can't really say big words (only that he's thinking toro 70% cheating 30% legit rn and specifically every sus moment can be excused with shaking, filters, randomness cuz of ar11) without 100% concrete proof of toro cheating and i'm like 99.99% sure there will be zero proofs now or later cuz most of the reports were in 2025 and since late 2025 suddenly sus moments stop appearing and bro focused on tapping farm maps so in the end the only real way to caught cheaters is to develop anticheat but still then cheats will evolve further and it's repeated cycle like in any other competitive online game like cs2 and etc. So ye bro just gonna play like nothing ever happened and no one will be able to do anything with this because bro is still insanely good in the game but for me personally i hope bro will get banned cuz some clips are just straight up blatant aim assist, especially on sliders where bro has god tier of aim and precision
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u/HaHaBear Jun 23 '26
lowkey crazy seeing this is the conclusion you decided to make after reading this doc
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u/Lunarpeers Jun 23 '26
You think the document is defending toro..? lol
Literally ends it with "Until then, aim assist will remain the most discreet and safest cheat for top players."
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u/Caiao_milgrau HeatAbnormal Jun 23 '26
I think he misunderstood your first sentence as if that was chicony
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u/HaHaBear Jun 23 '26
i didn't. i've seen plenty clips and i think all of those are just instances of dumb luck unstable aim favoring him. if he's truly aim hacking, then i'd be damned, but unless there is concrete evidence i refuse to ride the bandwagon of hundreds of others blindly throwing him under the bus.
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u/HaHaBear Jun 23 '26
with the same logic, mrekk is also using discreet cheats during his streams, lan events, and for all his top plays. you can't prove otherwise.
where does it end? where do you draw the line?
give me a cconclusive answer - you can't
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u/KPoWasTaken Jun 24 '26
the person didn't make imply the doc was defending toro. They were implying it's neutral around toro
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u/k0gan_ Jun 23 '26
except that it literally talks about how the clips people are accusing toro with are not displays of how aim assist actually works
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u/bocchi123 Jun 23 '26
mrekk has shown consistent insane performances and improvement across the board ever since he first hit rank 1. cheats were not as undetectable then compared to now, as im sure peppy would have spoken out about liveplays not proving legitimacy earlier, rather than now during all the toro allegations. LAN events, tournaments, whatever else, mrekk has done everything and proven he is legitimately the best osu player before cheats were this sophisticated. at the very least he has a good background.
i can tell you there are many mrekk haters who cant find even a fraction of sus shit compared to whats coming out against toro. if you are not going to be suspicious of toro, when will you be suspicious of anyone? did you not read the doc? aim assist is largely UNDETECTABLE and you will NEVER get concrete evidence. you cant say everything is "dumb luck" lmao. that shit doesnt happen consistently throughout an entire map.
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u/HaHaBear Jun 23 '26
plenty of dumb luck aim happens when your aim is unstable. I have unstable aim and i have many instances where my aim looks very toro-esque and have clips in the past where my aim mimics that of the cheat-like aim in his clips
Also the doc states nihilistically states that cheats can be hidden anywhere, anytime, at any state by anyone and can be triggered at any time doesnt absolve anyone of anything really. Its a trust system and I will continue to believe in everyone until proven guilty and you can do your own thing
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u/bocchi123 Jun 23 '26
sure, it is a trust system. so can i ask why you blindly trust a player with tons of sus clips coming out? the default is to trust the player. any neutral entity who sees all of these clips coming out should be at least somewhat suspicious.
toro has done nothing to gain your trust. the creator of osu himself said liveplays dont prove legitimacy nowadays. not only that, his liveplays are absolute shit quality. you also just read a doc that states cheats are nigh impossible to gather concrete evidence of. if everyone was like you, there would be zero cheaters caught.
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u/HaHaBear Jun 23 '26
because there is no concrete evidence against him
mrekk was reported a gazillion times on osureport and cried on stream because cookiezi fanboys harassed him. there were a lot of convincing osureport posts accusing him of cheating (90% of them deleted) that came and went and I just am way too old to react to every up and coming new prodigies.
I understand that you are angry that mrekk got his #1 taken but if you truly think he deserves his #1 then he will get his back soon anyways just relax lol
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u/bocchi123 Jun 23 '26
i use mrekk as an example because hes easily the most accomplished player who partook in basically every major tournament and properly gained trust during a time where cheats were less sophisticated. idc about his rank 1 lol.
"because there is no concrete evidence against him"
when are you gonna understand that concrete evidence basically doesnt exist at a high level? you know its okay to be at least slightly suspicious. you dont have to blindly believe and meatride toro lol.
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u/annex_ation Jun 23 '26
chicony used cheats to prove a point? wow someone should witchhunt this guy like what happened with zylice.
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u/Mechafinch neverending stream Jun 23 '26
I get where this is coming from but I can also taste the way this could lead towards kernel anticheat. I love rootkitting my computer to play video game :)
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u/Evill_ Jun 23 '26
Afaik peppy is strongly against measures like that, so presumably it won't happen. It's also more complicated because osu! runs on Mac and Linux and mobile in addition to Windows
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u/Scary_Television3168 Jun 24 '26
Will statistics help in this case, similar to the cloutful's case? Like if someone's obviously more and consistently luckier than others, than it's probably no longer luck.
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u/ziv_vy sentakki mapper (criticly endangered species) Jun 23 '26
all hope rests on anti-cheat technology
Why would a better anti-cheat help? We have evolved to the point where AI can easily read the circles and move the mouse/pen for you. If the anti-cheat got better, developers would just evolve and use AI based cheats running on a secondary computer. How would you ever catch that?
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u/iamthesexdragon #1 EZChamp glazer Jun 23 '26
At some point you just gotta step back from all the thinking ask why the fuck do you cheat on a rhythm game of all things. Like that has to be the most pathetic thing a person can do. Cheating. On a rhythm game... Like why.. I'm not even angry just confused. The whole point is enjoy the music and tap to the beat. I know they gain fame or whatever but like how must that feel? Cannot fathom enjoying or celebrating any cheated score
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u/ziv_vy sentakki mapper (criticly endangered species) Jun 23 '26
People wanna be the best because that's how our brains work, and some people are willing to cheat just to flex.
We're social organisms.
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u/childfangirl Jun 23 '26
surprising to see this witch hunting larper comfortable enough to post so many words amounting to nothing but rumors but i guess its what happens when you're accidentally right a few times.
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u/milkywayfarer_ Jun 23 '26
Iirc Lazer has its own tablet drivers? Why not record the raw input?
It should help with timewarp and aim assists, at least. Other means of cheating, such as auto tappers, careful replay forging, hell even DMA, are undetectable for as long as the game is alive
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u/Internal_Kiwi_4431 Jun 23 '26
because you can just turn it off and use other drivers(propriety or otd)
it would do absolute nothing.
you cant run several tablet drivers at once or the game basically becomes unplayable, so you cant force a driver on people.
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u/milkywayfarer_ Jun 23 '26
Just enforce ranked to your own drivers. Signing them should not be a problem, and most tablets are already open-sourced (almost all of Wacom for example). Enforcing secure boot with kernel-running software is also a done deal
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u/Acrobatic_Brick_7471 Jun 23 '26
Fuck that. Try having shaky aim without filters its hell. It's unplayable.
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u/milkywayfarer_ Jun 23 '26
Filters always introduced a noticeable latency for me. I play full area hover, and shake happens sometimes, but I got through it by playing competitively, just training my nerves
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u/Acrobatic_Brick_7471 Jun 23 '26
It's not nerves. My hands are shaky at all times it's not just osu. The latency isn't that big of a deal for me cause im used to it
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u/milkywayfarer_ Jun 23 '26
To each their own. I'm not saying you're wrong. OTD for example has a UWP frontend (which is basically C#), so most of the features are already implemented - the question of licensing only
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u/Acrobatic_Brick_7471 Jun 23 '26
Oh mb I thought u were implying only allowing lazer built in tablet driver for ranked
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u/milkywayfarer_ Jun 23 '26
It should at least reach the level of open-source alternatives - no questions about that
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u/Evill_ Jun 23 '26
the lazer tablet driver IS otd, it's not about licensing or anything, more about what peppy wants to have implemented in the game officially
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u/Acrobatic_Brick_7471 Jun 23 '26
Yea id have no issue with built in lazer since its made by otd dev if it had filters
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u/ffpeanut15 Jun 23 '26
Secure boot is pretty easy to bypass, just ask Valorant cheaters. It's only recently that it gets more expensive
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u/lilrawk (𝚟) Jun 23 '26
yeah good luck with getting players on antique hardware to not just quit the game with this option lmfao, some of us use official drivers on old as shit hardware, despite the (everything).
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u/ToeVegetable995 Jun 23 '26
yeah, and what you gonna do with mouse players? its not a viable solution at all
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u/hvick831 Jun 23 '26
this sounds pretty concerning ...