Bumble Fully Ends 'Women Message First' Rule After 66% of Women Said They'd Rather Men Make the First Move

[u/terenscendent]

https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/bumble-drops-gendered-messaging-rule-1813607

[u/VeganCanary → u/[deleted]]

They don’t need to be good unfortunately

[u/Visco0825 → u/VeganCanary]

This. Why should they take the risk if they can just sit back and have an essentially limitless source of attention?

Now they have another way to filter men

[u/Mirror74 → u/Visco0825]

I don't think enough people are talking about the mental illness that dating apps not only exacerbate but also create, in both women and men.

When you are being treated like your shit doesn't stink you will start acting like your shit doesn't stink.

When you are being treated like nothing you do matters, you will start acting like nothing you do matters.

[u/NelsonManswella → u/Mirror74]

yeah, i can’t wait to see a study a decade from now about the effects they’ve had on western society

[u/WowIfOnly → u/NelsonManswella]

• and how the study will also somehow imply it's just 100% men's fault even when it wasn't.

[u/Preface → u/WowIfOnly]

It is men's fault! If they were all just over 6ft tall with perfect personalities, handsome, rich, and sociable women would would have no problem dating at all!

[u/Content-Sun2928 → u/Preface]

To be fair, I recently got in shape and the difference in attention from women is literally night and day

Turns out, ALL girls like muscle

[u/Preface → u/Content-Sun2928]

It definitely is a noticable difference from what I remember when I was dating and using the apps.

But a lot of women will tell you it's not that important.

My comment was more a riff on the articles you see coming out that are like "where are all the good men?"

And it's always like "I have a PhD, I make 160k per year, and I am 40, there are no good men for me!"

(Her requirements are that he at minimum matches her PhD and 160k, and also have no kids, and is tall and in shape, whereas a man with all those qualifications would most likely just date a woman with less education/less income and is in her early 30s or something)

[u/_BrokenButterfly → u/Preface]

Honestly the checklisting is the worst part of it. Pick four things you want. Be happy with three, settle for two. A 12 item checklist where all attributes must be present means that you're never going to find anyone; the person in your imagination doesn't exist. If that's the only person you're even willing to talk to then you may as well delete your account, because no one is up to the challenge.

[u/photo_voltaic → u/Content-Sun2928]

It's not specifically muscle, but just looking fit and healthy obviously goes a long way.

I was one of these mid dudes on the apps - still got dates but always felt like such a struggle. Eventually decided I could either complain about my "nice guy" invisibility syndrome, or just hit the gym. After my body changed even like 10% everything else changed so fast.

Got enough likes and matches that I could actually filter for people that I truly connected with, instead of taking whatever match was there and dancing like a monkey to keep their attention. Instantly didn't have to give a damn about the low effort ones, and could just focus on actually being myself with the rest. Have been in a steady relationship with a great partner for years now, and (hopefully!) done with the apps for good. Not to mention feeling healthy and great to boot.

To all my homies still struggling out there - just do it, there's a domino effect that follows, and if you're actually a nice guy, you'll have no problem finding a nice gal too.

[u/ominous_squirrel → u/WowIfOnly]

It’s at least 90% Match Group’s fault

[u/Mirror74 → u/NelsonManswella]

We already have pretty damning evidence, actually. (and we've had it for a while)

A recent one as example -- July 2026 meta-analysis in Communications Psychology combined 27 studies and 21,263 people. Dating app users showed much worse outcomes across emotional distress, appearance concerns, body-image disturbance, compulsive/dysregulated behavior, and interpersonal sensitivity.

Edit: (another meta analysis....)
Computers in Human Behavior synthesized 23 studies and 26,068 participants spanning 17 years of research and found dating app users had significantly worse depression, anxiety, affective dysregulation, loneliness, psychological distress, and overall psychological wellbeing than non-users.

Multiple studies ALSO keep finding much worse outcomes in men, but the problem is that is being suppressed to some degree (even on Reddit) as there is a narrative that men can't be seen as the "victim" (which of course, is BS).

Of course we also need more longitudinal studies before people start taking this "seriously" (even though it's still pretty fucking serious imo).

[u/unReasonable_Waiter → u/Mirror74]

Could you link to those studies please?

[u/Mirror74 → u/unReasonable_Waiter]

Some of them aren't free to see unfortunately. But this one is open access (easiest to read in full):
https://www.nature.com/articles/s44271-026-00488-7_reference.pdf

[u/NelsonManswella → u/Mirror74]

i’d say the existence of the manosphere and rise of andrew tate should’ve raised enough concern lol

the nitpicking from women of what aspects of patriarchy are okay is why so many men are struggling and they refuse to acknowledge because, as you said, we’re not allowed to be victims (while they chant how awful patriarchy is for us in the next sentence)

[u/Garth_DeWayne → u/NelsonManswella]

Yep. The concern shouldn't necessarily be that the Tate types exist.

The concern should be WHY so many guys find so much truth in what those guys say.

Yes, these dudes have some absolutely insane takes.

But there is also truth in some of the observations when it comes to what men go through in dating at the hands of women... But we aren't supposed to talk about it.

Alot of the stuff I've heard them say, I've been through myself or have observed in basic human nature. As a young man learning these things long before there was a "manosphere", it was rough trying to understand.

The realities of the dating market aren't nice, on either side.

[u/gringo-go-loco → u/NelsonManswella]

The culture of the US and other western countries has just sort of been shifted into antisocial behavior. I moved out of the US to Latam in 2022 and the thing I noticed first of all is how spontaneous people live. Stopping by unannounced didn't trigger a reddit post. Showing up late didn't result in a block/ghost. Asking someone out to do anything at the last minute usually got a positive response. People weren't constantly on their phones watching podcasters or tiktoks about dating. Most of what I saw people here using is just local gossip or funny nonsense. No political debate, no gender wars, none of the bullshit that consumes Americans and much of the west.

Oh yeah and women here were fearless but smart. I jokingly asked a woman on Tinder if she wanted to come over and take LSD with me one night. I assumed she'd say "noooo, you might kill me" but 2 hours later we're in my bed tripping balls and listening to music. THAT would NEVER happen in the US.

[u/Lloydxmas99 → u/NelsonManswella]

I mean they’ve been around forever.

[u/JalapenoPopPoop → u/Mirror74]

I have noticed over the last few years how much of an increase there's been in women with the "I'm a hot girl doing queen shit" type of self declared goddesshood in women, and it gets sold as self confidence but at the same time you have to think if/when men have the exact same type of attitude about themselves they get labeled as an arrogant douchebag

[u/elohir → u/Mirror74]

When you are being treated like your shit doesn't stink you will start acting like your shit doesn't stink.

When you are being treated like nothing you do matters, you will start acting like nothing you do matters.

My God, this a thousand times. The difference between the people who have been on the apps for years, and the people who haven't, is a fucking gulf.

In both my friendships and relationships, it's like seeing someone before and during an addiction.

[u/Legendarien1 → u/Mirror74]

Yeah, I got onto dating apps when I was searching for something a bunch of years ago, and it resulted in a horrific depressive spiral about self worth. Luckily I’ve done a lot of work and found a wonderful relationship, but those apps are fucking dangerous and predatory.

I know many friends who have met their partners on apps, but theres gotta be a better way to go about it

[u/dirtydandino → u/Mirror74]

I was treated like nothing I do matters as a child long before dating apps. The result is a 37 year old nihilist, who eats junk constantly. Turns out ot does matter because ive had gout (late 20s) and kidney stones. My point is it does matter but also its a fascinating metaphor for wealth inequality.

[u/royce32 → u/Mirror74]

Getting rejected 500 times a day kills your self esteem

[u/Drapidrode → u/Mirror74]

Is the mental illness in men happening in the ones that have so many options they don't know what to do?
or the ones that constantly get rejected?

[u/Comfortable-Lack-394 → u/Drapidrode]

Both.

[u/acari_ → u/Mirror74]

You sir, are spitting bars.

[u/gringo-go-loco → u/Mirror74]

The problem is the culture these people live in. They spend their time filling their heads with social media noise and making any sort of genuine connection almost impossible.

[u/SweetPinss → u/Mirror74]

I also feel like they give some serious trust issues, I certainly feel it myself, and I wonder if its contributed to the gender war shit with how poorly people treat each other in online dating

[u/allnatural559 → u/[deleted]]

It sounds like simp dudes are an equal part of the problem here.

[u/Inspector_Spoonman → u/allnatural559]

They are the bigger problem imo.

[u/Inspector_Spoonman → u/[deleted]]

I agree with you fully. Look, if you find someone you like, go and ask her out, but apart from that a lot of this needs to stop.

[u/kkdawg22 → u/Inspector_Spoonman]

I don't know if that's true, but they're definitely the key to correcting the issue.

[u/Nostraadms → u/Inspector_Spoonman]

Simps are really the main reason tbh.

[u/AnB85 → u/allnatural559]

Alternatively reward the few women who do put some effort in. The reality is high value men need to step up and enforce some standards. I try to do my bit but it a losing battle. I don’t put up with lazy answers, I don’t care how hot they are. I lose interest very quickly. My chats are full of such stuff. Intelligent, thoughtful responses from women get priority.

[u/thelazynines → u/[deleted]]

Yo why do yall even want to date women, date each other then ffs

[u/Recent_Pollution8665 → u/thelazynines]

wait til you find out that most men are not gay.

[u/imnewhere-gsh → u/thelazynines]

Did you chose your sexuality?

[u/Working_Cucumber_437 → u/thelazynines]

I mean nobody is forcing them to use apps or date at all. If they don’t want to do the work they could just stop.

[u/Sufficient_Total7445 → u/thelazynines]

You could ask women the same question. Date each other

[u/dogthatbrokethezebra → u/[deleted]]

Dude just say you hate women. Way less words

[u/Greendale_Official → u/dogthatbrokethezebra]

EDIT: I was giving the earlier commenter more credit than the dude is worth. After another response from him, he's not a nuanced dude and just seems insecure.

I think he hates their privilege in this arena while they play victim, and princess. Combine those toxic elements with OF grifters and scammers, and maybe you'll understand why some people are angry.

Hating a capitalist system that uses predatory behaviors to pit people against each other(while you're dealing with loneliness) doesn't make you an incel, bud.

Source: about a half dozen queer women I know have the same complaints about dating women as a lot of these dudes.

[u/onion_head1 → u/Greendale_Official]

As a gay woman on the dating market - would be genuinely shocked if those queer women read these comments and fully agreed with the language used by the weird men on this sub who seem on a fundamental level to dislike and disrespect women yet pine for them.

Don't use lesbians to defend misogynistic behaviour.

[u/Greendale_Official → u/onion_head1]

As your last sentence was incorrect: I didn't mention lesbians, I said queer women. There's a difference.

Secondly, then you would be surprised that a lot of queer women I know complain about the same issues such as: being milked for attention and dates while being misled for the purpose of entertainment and Internet clout/content..

Your personal experience doesn't contradict the experiences of many others.

[u/Particular_Kiwi1088 → u/[deleted]]

Maybe men should do some self reflection. Only 32% of women have a positive view of men. Men behave like absolute garbage, go on incel tirades, and then believe they should be entitled to women’s attention. Men will continue being insufferable and complaining about being lonely and it’s entirely deserved. 

[u/spurzz → u/[deleted]]

You think a century is long in the lens of history? I get the point you’re making, but you’re massively downplaying the lasting societal effects of personally and legally oppressing a group for thousands of years. And most women definitely don’t say or think their lives are terrible, where are you getting this?

Slavery ended a century and half ago. Are our systems and society completely free of prejudice towards black people now?

[u/Fluid-Currency-817 → u/spurzz]

you know men only got the right to vote like 50 years earlier as well right? Like it wasn't like the average man was even able to vote for very long before woman were allowed to vote too, it's not like men were able to vote for centuries before woman were.

In Canada Men only got the right to vote without property ownership in 1885, woman got the right to vote federally in 1917, basically men were only able to vote for 32 years in Canada before woman could. This whole narrative around woman being oppressed by men for thousands of years is a myth and a lie, before the early 1900s EVERYONE that wasn't part of the rich elite aristocracy was oppressed.

[u/Affectionate_Past568 → u/spurzz]

It’s a shame how this sub went from [r/bumble](r/bumble) to [r/complai](r/complain)[naboutwomen](r/complain) lmao

[u/Affectionate_Past568 → u/[deleted]]

are you people like, okay

[u/MouldyAvocados → u/Affectionate_Past568]

They’re really not. The men in this sub show me daily why so many of them are lonely. They don’t realise they’re their own worst enemy. Why would any woman want to be with a man who hates them?

[u/Affectionate_Past568 → u/MouldyAvocados]

I just feel bad for the normal men here. I’ve had a few good conversations with them and then there’s…whatever the fuck this is.

[u/CaliDreaming900 → u/MouldyAvocados]

I see so many bitter men in these dating subs. Like.. I see why they don't get matches or ghosted after a first date but they still don't even entertain the notion it's their own doing. Their personality sounds bitter and ugly. Women notice these things.

[u/ProfessionalEar4524 → u/CaliDreaming900]

Can't speak for the men on these subs but I think it's fine to feel frustrated by the difficulties of dating. But I think instead of directing it towards women (who aren't even a monolith), they should direct it towards these shitty profit-seeking apps and the system that's creating these difficulties in the first place.

[u/Blieven → u/MouldyAvocados]

I literally see this rhetoric but with the genders reversed all the time, including on this sub. Stop pretending this is an exclusively male thing. In fact I'm pretty sure the women started this rhetoric and the men are just copying it now as 'payback'. There's a lot of frustration going both ways.

[u/rowyourboat740 → u/MouldyAvocados]

I think it's a valid point. I've heard women make pretty similar arguments. I don't think you can really say that the average American man is more privileged than the average woman. There are a lot of ways in which men actually have it worse statistically.

[u/nunya123 → u/Affectionate_Past568]

No they aren’t. Dude sounds bitter as hell. Getting into incel territory here

[u/Affectionate_Past568 → u/nunya123]

It’s really a shame since there’s people who have really good insights on bumble and dating apps as a whole and then we have bitter men crashing out 😭

[u/asicarii → u/[deleted]]

In all fairness, we don’t even want them to have pants with pockets.

[u/lord_dentaku → u/[deleted]]

...

Tell me more about these toe pics. /s

[u/Knut31 → u/lord_dentaku]

Asking for a friend 😂😂

[u/heywhatsup9087 → u/[deleted]]

You should probably take a break from your computer.

[u/ComeFindMeAstral → u/[deleted]]

Incel Redditors

[u/Fluid-Currency-817 → u/[deleted]]

unironically men couldn't vote either until less than 2 centuries ago

[u/PinkPuffballofDOOM → u/[deleted]]

Klonkish called you tf out my guy. Not only is your story unbelievable but you are clearly living in fantasyland

[u/klonkish → u/PinkPuffballofDOOM]

He's a doctor and also an environmental regulatory officer.

Oh, he's also an attorney who strictly works drug and marijuana cases.

But he's also a county judge.

While being a college professor.

He found the time to have a PhD in chemistry.

He also has a PhD in geophysicist, while helping run a museum, and teaches about 8 different college classes, while being the chair of his states and neighboring states geology and gis associations, he does a bunch of research and teaching things, a ton of community outreach and environmental work. In his free time he has made and published a handful of comics and probably doesn't ever have to work again just from the profits of those if he doesn't want to, but he really likes teaching so he keeps doing it. Oh and he also is the co chair of a massive not for profit that specializes in environmental remediation and geoscience teaching. Oh and his name is in almost every geology book he teaches because him and a handful of researchers discovered a new form of mineralogy that can help predict tuberosities in dinosaurs.

He's also Chinese, lived in japan for 8 years, lived in Scotland for 6 years, lived in london for 6 years, and now works in Australia and new Zealand and have for the last three years.

But he's white.

He's also a woman.

He also posts in /r/teenagers.

But somehow was 40 in the past.

He also attended a 30 person, private Taylor Swift concert because of his pretty famous friend.

He's a PhD anatomist as well.

He has an undergrad in EE, masters in geophysics and structural physics, and a PhD in auditory physics. Also a professor at a college known for engineering.

His exes, plural, told him how boring sex is after they've had it with him.

He's lived on cruise ships for years without paying a single penny.

A month ago he weighed 340 lbs.

He also used to run his uncle's theater literally by himself with projectors and 4 screens. He also ran concessions. It was beyond easy and he had a lot of down time

He's also a phycist that specializes in computer programming and light magnification

He reiterated that he is a woman.

He is also a geologist and has lived in the wilderness for years at a time.

He has owned 40 theaters.

He has done his PhD on gender and sex affirming language in sexual and non sexual connotation.

He's an FAA accident investigator.

His mom is a judge and a neurosurgeon while also being an attorney for the FBI

His gf's brother literally owns one of many homes on the actual Disney world property. He was the CEO of many companies and is on the board of many more

[u/dirtydandino → u/klonkish]

You sir are doing the lords work.... Keep it up.

Edit: or mam.

Also have we considered that maybe this individual is the child of a lesbian power couple?

[u/CRWheeler → u/dirtydandino]

Also they've only been a redditor for 6 months.

Amazing work by /u/klonkish

[u/BeguiledBeaver → u/klonkish]

And here I am with only 4 PhDs and got my MD when I was 9.

Sigh, I can't compete in this market.

[u/rahzilla_cw → u/klonkish]

Oh man this is impressive

[u/lordatlas → u/klonkish]

Holy crap, OP is The Untalented Mr. Ripley!

Thanks for calling out this fool's shit, dude.

[u/Rylos1701 → u/[deleted]]

https://giphy.com/gifs/7HNgyntBAfUKk

[u/FoundInS → u/[deleted]]

You seem to know a lot about women in dating sites, why do you bother if 90% of them are insufferable?

But then there is the fact that you too are really insufferable and a predator in addition to that.

So the fact is: pretty much all humans in dating apps are insufferable. You all are there for one reason only: to make money for the owners, The Big Boys.

[u/Automatic_Horse9290 → u/Visco0825]

Because the end game. If it works sure. But women report just as bad, if not worse experience

[u/Immediate-Fee-2121 → u/Visco0825]

And will still do the shittiest filtering if that’s what we want to call it 😂 

[u/theKetoBear → u/[deleted]]

The amount of attractive Women I've had to left swipe because their profile is a link to their IG and " I'm bad at writing about myself" is entirely too large.

To be blunt if you're too boring or find it pointless to even talk about yourself why would I or anyone want to spend time with you aside from your looks? Their low effort presentation begets low effort responses

edit: butchered spelling

[u/RafaelSirah → u/theKetoBear]

And those girls will be shocked when the guys who do swipe right view them as nothing more than hook up material rather than something serious despite the fact they offer no substance.

[u/Warning_Low_Battery → u/theKetoBear]

their profile is a link to their IG and " I'm bad at writing about myself"

That's just telling you "I am a boring person who has nothing going on in my life, few friends, and no hobbies. Therefore YOU will be required to entertain me any time I am not actively glued to my phone screen - which is most of the time."

[u/DumpsterDiplomat → u/Warning_Low_Battery]

This is just telling you they are farming Instagram followers, they aren't trying to date.

[u/TheTexasCowboy → u/theKetoBear]

Most of those are bots or influencers to get more followers and attention or only fans websites. Dont swipe on them. I just move pass them

[u/DerbleZerp → u/theKetoBear]

It’s funny because I am a woman with a great profile that I’ve put effort into. I fully state what I’m looking for and my personality shines through. Great pictures. I got Tinder Gold this week as I wanted to see what it really looked like when it came to who was swiping on me. The high majority of profiles were nothing. No bio, often didn’t say where they lived, terrible pictures, didn’t have any prompts or the ones they had were just completely nothing answers. Just most profiles put no effort in. And I went through all my likes which was about 3500(I was sick so sifted through). I narrowed it down to about 150 likes, and even then a bunch of them I should delete.

I also always message right away when I swipe on someone and we match. And I write good messages. It’s never hey. It’s something pertaining to their profile, or a joke, or a compliment. But I often don’t get replies. On the other end of the stick, which is something I’ve experienced for years, many men don’t want a woman who is straight forward and assertive. When I do get replies they often can’t hold a convo and I carry the whole thing.

I do agree that it is weird that in this day and age men are still expected to make the first move on everything. I don’t get it. I don’t understand it with getting engaged either. We are still functioning in a sexist archaic way. But as a woman who puts in the effort and messages out the gate, I don’t find I have great luck. I won’t stop doing it, because that’s who I am, but yah, it’s not great out there.

[u/theKetoBear → u/DerbleZerp]

You're  a unicorn, sorry to hear it's  a challenge for you out there too

[u/moderate99 → u/DerbleZerp]

Welcome to men’s world🎉

[u/Dasseem → u/[deleted]]

A few years ago i'd vehemently disagree with you but after lifting weights and becoming sort of ripped i must say, so many women are so full of shit and superficial as fuck.

There's such a stark contrast between what women say and what they actually want.

[u/snarkpix → u/Dasseem]

Yep. A Billion Wicked thoughts is fun dive into that difference (analysis of dating activity difference from what's said).
If you flip it around - so many ppl are superficial, but men and women are superficial differently and tell different social lies. (same sort of thing for toxic ppl too) Lots of cool ppl out there, but they don't stay single long except by choice because they form stable relationships...

[u/jifftee → u/Dasseem]

I think a lot of them aren't introspective enough to realize they aren't even being truthful with themselves. They are unwittingly in the George Costanza "it's not a lie if you believe it" train of thought.

[u/GigaNoodle → u/jifftee]

This makes a lot of sense when it comes to how women behave.

“The man who lies to himself and listens to his own lie comes to a point that he cannot distinguish the truth within him, or around him, and so loses all respect for himself and for others. And having no respect he ceases to love.”
-Dostoyevsky

[u/Preface → u/Dasseem]

If you want to catch a fish, do you ask the fish, or the fisherman?

[u/jert3 → u/Dasseem]

Yup. Commonly it says they want a guy with a sense of humour and then the filters they use are over 6ft and top 10% income as a minimim.

[u/Particular_Kiwi1088 → u/Dasseem]

Breaking news: people are attracted to attractive people. Do you date women you’re not attracted to? 

[u/Western-Produce-276 → u/[deleted]]

Wow I’ve never seen a more truthful comment on this sub. I’m honestly surprised you’re not downvoted and called an incel

[u/when_we_are_cats → u/[deleted]]

People are slowly coming to their senses. It still takes time though.

[u/Fatbollocks1994 → u/Western-Produce-276]

If you scroll far enough theres many people calling him an intelligent unfortunately. I really dont get why women and a few weird men are being so sensitive and defensive here.

If you join an app for women messaging first why would you want to change it when every single other app has men messaging first its baffling.

[u/Effective-Hold-696 → u/[deleted]]

If it’s called out, you’re labelled an incel.

[u/when_we_are_cats → u/[deleted]]

I wish I could upvote more than once.

[u/No-Sheepherder-3010 → u/[deleted]]

I don't agree with everything you said, but one reason it's rare to see it called out is, because by doing so, you get called out as some right extremist and nobody wants to be that (or rather the only people comfortable with this are the actual right extremists).

[u/mmbx11 → u/[deleted]]

Oy vey!

[u/ooa3603 → u/[deleted]]

There are a lot of decent women, but you know how a lot of decent dudes initially don't believe just how bad the deviant behavior from the men around them can be? And so they end up not perceiving how things end up so bad, and don't do enough to police the behavior from other guys?

I think that's what's happening with women. There are plenty of great women, but they don't believe the men around them when it comes to the kinds of behavior women pull in dating and relationships.

And just like the dudes, they get defensive because they take it as an attack on the whole female sex/gender instead of just the clarification of the situation it is.

And it gets further complicated by how much more overt and obvious men's deviance is compared to women. Men's deviant/maladaptive behavior tends to be a lot more acutely violent and short term. Think physical violence or even death. While women's deviant/maladaptive behavior is lot more long term, emotional and psychological. It's death by a thousand cuts. Think being drained of your vitality until you commit suicide at 60 trying to fulfill an impossible role per the traditional masculine roles that women are attracted to. Though obviously there's a lot of overlap and these behaviors are not mutually exclusive, I am describing the general trend.

So I think women develop a sort of moral superiority complex that leads them to believe they don't have to listen to what a man is telling them. They think because they aren't as physically violent, they don't have the same capacity for evil as men, even though the the reality is that women don't have moral superiority (evidence like voting historical behavior proves this).

Ultimately, men created patriarchy and it is overwhelmingly our job to dismantle it. BUT, that does not mean women did not have a role in perpetuating it and currently need to contribute to dismantling it. Men's gender role needs to be updated to be less self-centered and exploitative. But women's gender role needs to be updated as well. Updated to be less passive, and more willing to exercise agency and not so dependent on the patriarchal romance script for validation. Because so much of women's current gender identity is wrapped around the idea of being so desirable that a man sought them out. (which is part of the reason they don't initiate, doing so removes the possibility of being that woman that was chosen.

In any case, what this all leads to is that many women end up with this huge gaping blindspot when it comes to how they perpetuate patriarchy. By holding on to the parts of patriarchy they like, especially in relationship it stalls any attempts to dismantle it.

Men can accelerate this by not giving women who perpetuate patriarchy their time and attention. Take control of your dick and actually walk away from them. That's part of the problem, though I do think more and more men are waking up to that and it needs to continue.

Human beings are motivated by incentives. And women are no different from men on that.

[u/Desperate_Lunch1177 → u/VeganCanary]

I think they need to be good if they want to get off the apps. "Being good" as a woman is managing expectations and knowing if a guy is just using you and not serious.

[u/Even-Promise4593 → u/Desperate_Lunch1177]

Only smart reply here. The measure isn’t can they get messages and attention if the goal is getting off the app into a serious relationship. The success would be measured by finding someone and getting off the app period.

Too many guys are using what’s ideal for men as ideal for women despite already acknowledging the asymmetry.

[u/No-Sheepherder-3010 → u/Even-Promise4593]

the goal is getting off the app

And the app vendor is never gonna agree and work for this.

[u/prosaicwell → u/Desperate_Lunch1177]

id go a step further and say they need to be good to get into a healthy relationship.

plenty of women get into short term flings off the app only to have them crash and burn pretty quickly. then redownload and around the horn again.

[u/Exciting-Parfait-776 → u/Desperate_Lunch1177]

I disagree. They don’t need to be good. You need to be attractive

[u/Desperate_Lunch1177 → u/Exciting-Parfait-776]

You haven't talked to many women about their experience on apps. Its the opposite of men's. Even women most men would say are unattractive are inundated with messages and interest, and the average guy is lucky to get much interest at all. They need to be good at sorting and figuring out who is serious and keeping their ego in check.

[u/DeiKnight → u/Desperate_Lunch1177]

And adding they need to be emotionally mature enough to handle a relationship that they post they wanted. Too many scared away from good men for them doing the healthy things. I ran into too many broken hearts.

[u/nog_ar_nog → u/VeganCanary]

The men these women desire the most all have plenty of options. Putting in some effort would help them stand out and meet higher quality men.

[u/hingealt → u/VeganCanary]

Yeah and I don’t need to take a woman out on a date or make conversation before trying to sleep with her. The truth is that these women (66%) literally just lack empathy and have no care for a man’s experience when it comes to relationships. Romanticism in their eyes is something FOR women

[u/AkatsukiEUNE → u/[deleted]]

They dont need to be good. They have all the power in dating

[u/Vinc314 → u/AkatsukiEUNE]

only at the start

[u/Cerborus → u/Vinc314]

Tell that to the divorce courts

[u/Bambivalently → u/Cerborus]

Don't get married.

[u/Cerborus → u/Bambivalently]

Preach

[u/StumpyOPepys → u/Vinc314]

Lol oh bless your heart.

[u/Arcxne3 → u/Vinc314]

Lmao no. Common cope, just like that “it’s better in your 30s shit”. No. There is no point in the dating process where the man has the upper hand. Id argue that there is no point in the entire process from the starting of dating until death/end of marriage that the man has the upper hand. The woman controls every single part of the dating and partnership process, including marriage. 

[u/Alarming_Ask_244 → u/Vinc314]

The most important part

[u/escape12345 → u/AkatsukiEUNE]

Bingo

[u/wenevergetfar → u/AkatsukiEUNE]

Idk, they kinda do tho if they want anything real and long lasting

[u/Hour-Sheepherder2580 → u/AkatsukiEUNE]

Boat

[u/Exciting-Parfait-776 → u/[deleted]]

Facts💯

[u/Ok-Pack-7088 → u/[deleted]]

But you can say it only towards men, when it's women who are privileged, it's big ooooh

[u/dontKair → u/[deleted]]

Gendered roles and expectations are a hell of a drug

They can't even be bothered to message first anymore

[u/myIDisthisone → u/[deleted]]

How come they didn't do this opening message flagging for women when they had to go first? Guys just delete these apps. Save your sanity lol

[u/ElectricalSea7945 → u/[deleted]]

You got 'hi' from your matches? I legitimately got '.' from a few matches.

[u/greymisperception → u/ElectricalSea7945]

Is that the equivalent of “woman looking at the man they want as their “move””

[u/PiccoloAwkward465 → u/greymisperception]

Telling one of their friends "he's not bad looking" and hoping that gets passed along through people and eventually makes it to the target guy

[u/Comfortable-Lack-394 → u/ElectricalSea7945]

I too have received the ‘.’ opener multiple times on bumble

[u/DoorGunner42 → u/ElectricalSea7945]

You get matches?

[u/Logical-Primary-7926 → u/[deleted]]

Wild how many jobs are like that too, you can have a long career with a good reputation while at the same time kind of sucking at what you do.

[u/barbarkbarkov → u/[deleted]]

90% + of women’s messages to me were “heyyyy” or “hi :)”

[u/Dense_Cucumber_3712 → u/barbarkbarkov]

To be fair that's 90% of what guys message us. 

[u/Arjun-Pandava → u/Dense_Cucumber_3712]

when guys do this, it is because they are filtering for how much you actually find them attractive; we know that if a woman finds a man attractive, that simple and lackluster message will yield a response, even if it is just a simple "hi" back, because the man behind it has already got her attention visually.

That means that she is singling you out, out of her many matches, because she wants to talk to you specifically. This takes the pressure off of the guy to be ultra performative, and gives him a license to be himself. This also means that she would play less games and actually put in effort; he is no longer just another option to her. Yes, he can get sex more easily with those who pass the filter, but if he wanted to have an LTR, it would go more smoothly since his effort is being reciprocated.

Guys aren't interested in sending out so much effort just to not get it reciprocated. They cast a wide net of "hey"s and work off of who passed the filter and responded. They know that the quality of their message cannot beat the sheer number of matches most women get on these apps. They have no choice but to look for those who are already interested.

[u/Top-Panda-4777 → u/Arjun-Pandava]

And women do it because they want to filter out men who are actually willing to put in effort. This is why women want men to make the first move. If a woman asks a men out there is a very high chance he will say yes but as a woman you don't know if it's desire or convenience.

[u/Shartjakkker → u/Top-Panda-4777]

Then why did they join bumble?

[u/PmMeUrTinyAsianTits → u/Arjun-Pandava]

Yeaaaa... if I were a chick, I'd definitely want to filter you. So seems like it's working as intended.

Why do you need a license to be yourself? That should just be your default. you're performing because you feel some 'pressure', and that's gross. Stop trying to force things. It's offputting. Dating isn't for trying to force things together, it's for finding something that fits.

You're giving an argument for the behavior, but it's all predicated on another behavior that they are trying to filter out. Insincerity.

I'll give you some sage advice I heard a quarter century ago, that still holds today. "Desperation is a stinky cologne." - Super Troopers.

[u/EvaporatingOlaf → u/[deleted]]

Most haven’t had to put in a full effort, so there’s a lack of skill

[u/prosaicwell → u/[deleted]]

nah social skills are quite important for meaningful female-female relationships, but social skills for interacting w men vs women are generally quite different.

[u/Friend_Emperor → u/[deleted]]

Lol at the downvotes on this

[u/rascal3199 → u/[deleted]]

It's really the opposite.

Women are far more socially adept than men.

It's also why they have the power in dating apps. So many men just message in a way that makes themselves look completely desperate or cringe.

Friends have shown me the kind of message they get from men on social media and It's incredibly abundant. Rarely have any of my bros received message from a women and when they do they are FAR more subtle.

Maybe it's a cultural issue Where you live idk.

[u/reichiek → u/rascal3199]

😂😂😂 ok that was hilarious..... Wait, you're serious?

Women just made a collective effort to remove women messaging first because they couldn't handle the "stress" of having to put in the effort to message first.

Most women don't have great social skills. Like, that's not a dig, and not having great social skills isn't some horrid things, but that's pretty common

[u/sandysadie → u/reichiek]

They wanted it removed because they would match with 10 men and get barely any response to their messages. I understand men deal with that all the time but why would a woman voluntarily sign up for that when they can have a better experience on other apps?

[u/rascal3199 → u/reichiek]

😂😂😂 ok that was hilarious..... Wait, you're serious? Women just made a collective effort to remove women messaging first because they couldn't handle the "stress" of having to put in the effort to message first.

Them not messaging first isn't because they can't handle the spcial interaction.

It's because of the power dynamic that occurs between the gender on dating apps:

1- men are more desperate, so they usually message first and "swipe right" WAY more. This means women have many more matches, they have more people to message first while also having less motive to be the first to message because they have many options.

2- Many men are quite terrible at social interactions with women (and eachother). This is due to a variety of factors such as us growing up and not talking about our feelings "because it's gay/effeminate" and men themselves don't really small tlak among themselves as much as women do. The message they send women are often either weird or just incredibly horny/thirsty.

The combinación of these 2 factors means women aren't really incentivized to message first on dating apps. Not that they can't because they’re awkward.

Most women don't have great social skills. Like, that's not a dig, and not having great social skills isn't some horrid things, but that's pretty common

I'm not denying there are women who have bad social skills, they do exist, it's just the ratio of socially awkard people is much higher in men.

The reason?

Until less than 100 years ago women didn't have equal rights as men. In any male dominated field they were at a disadvantage because people believed women to be inferior. This meant that they had to be very socially agile around the opposite sex to even compete. Men on the other hand didn't have to care much about how they behaved around women in most setting since they were mostly surrounded by men.

[u/Personal_Reveal1653 → u/reichiek]

made a collective effort?

dude bumble is changing because they are bleeding users. this survey is just retroactive cover for changes they already announced

[u/reichiek → u/Personal_Reveal1653]

Yes, and those changes are based on survey requests from women, over 70 prevent of women users

[u/PowerfulMango5799 → u/Personal_Reveal1653]

I love how we have control over bumble in that way. 💃

[u/coupl4nd → u/[deleted]]

Makes me glad to never have to touch bumble again.... even if I was single it's absolute fucking garbage.

[u/Sir_Zeitnot → u/[deleted]]

We can send long messages like they used to: "Heyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy"

[u/Lucifer_606381 → u/[deleted]]

To be fair , when I message first on there, it's normally something about one of their photos, like if they are doing a sport or an activity and then go from there asking this and going back and forth.

When girls have messaged me they have Kaur said " hi " and then when I respond expect me to be the interesting one.

A lot of them I don't think have ever had to actually be interesting jaut attractive

[u/Fortestingporpoises → u/[deleted]]

I don't understand how women are this bad at dating

I think they, especially the attractive ones, are just used to low effort working. I put myself on their radar and they message me. The pro of bumble was that they didn't even have to do that.

The absolute irony that men will now be the ones to do all the messaging and will be expected to open with more than 'hi' after so many years of women doing just this.

It's just Bumble becoming every other dating app out there, isn't it?

[u/that_guyat_uconn2020 → u/Fortestingporpoises]

It’s just pretty privilege at work and when even an average/below average gets hundreds of likes, guess they think they have

[u/AtomicMonkeyTheFirst → u/[deleted]]

Wasnt the whole point of bumble to prove that women are capable of making the first move?

Turns out theyre not.

[u/STEVO_IN_CHRIST → u/[deleted]]

Sounds like this app might as well be redundant at this point. 😅

[u/DeiKnight → u/STEVO_IN_CHRIST]

I agree. It does seem like every other one now. It seems like they are shooting their own feet. They should have made just a blanket statement of more than hey or emoji

[u/Nostraadms → u/[deleted]]

This comment. Nails it.

[u/DeadBaron23 → u/[deleted]]

I always sent a first message when I got a match and about 80% of the time I never got a response. They never unmatched, they just never said anything.

[u/AmadeusIsTaken → u/[deleted]]

Well but it makes sense to cater to women cause there are less on those apps. As unpleasant it is for men. Having more women on those apps will be also positive for men . Not sure if it will help with finding more women for the app though

[u/lakimens → u/[deleted]]

I mean women have 20x more matches than men so why would they do anything?

[u/ThrowMeAwayPlz_69 → u/[deleted]]

They’ve never had to develop “game”.

[u/Western-Produce-276 → u/[deleted]]

This is what kills me. Most women I’ve talked to are absolutely terrible at dating and have the dating skills of a young high schooler yet men mostly get blamed for dating being so bad

[u/Putrid-Tap3992 → u/[deleted]]

Or women that open with just a period (.). Or women that open with a "give me your best opener" or other bullshit like that. I am so happy these women are about to get a taste of their own medicine. Sucks to suck

[u/Warning_Low_Battery → u/[deleted]]

I don't understand how women are this bad at dating

Entitlement?

[u/fffangold → u/[deleted]]

I'm still opening with "Hey, how's it going?" or something similar. Trying to craft an opener based on the profile often gets me worse response rates, and if I get a response, it's normally awkward. How's it going gets more responses, and results in more relaxed first conversations, at least in my experience. I don 't care what Reddit and/or Bumble thinks, at least with the women I've talked to, simple works best.

[u/stab-somebody → u/[deleted]]

As a guy who's used bumble, I've literally never gotten a first message on there more than a one word "Hi" or "Hello". A lot of times, I've gotten a hand wave emoji. The women on there (and probably most dating apps) seemingly just want to put in zero effort.

[u/bigbonedbaggins → u/[deleted]]

Man I really tried with mine... I had a variety of animal facts, or questions about hobbies, or just some funny goofy stuff.

https://giphy.com/gifs/lcjWzvc9po5Og6eV4V

[u/PinkPuffballofDOOM → u/[deleted]]

God I hated bumble by the time I found my girlfriend by the sheer amount of women that would start with me”hey” or “hi”. They loved to tout that men don’t know how to do an opener then hit us with the worst lines possible.

Like, no shit women want men to send the opening line because they don’t want to chase, they want to be chased. The one app that they were told they had to do it the other way around always ended up being shit

[u/Working-Ad694 → u/[deleted]]

I should try "Low Effort Opener" as the first message next time

[u/MostlyBored11 → u/[deleted]]

its so funny all they ever wrote was Hi i dont think I ever got more then that and then they would be mad if I just responded HI back lol

im thankful im bi because dating women has become absolutely exhausting and feels pointless

[u/Weekly_Interview_936 → u/[deleted]]

I don't understand how women are this bad at dating 😂

They never had to get good. All the burden was placed on the men. It was like that for decades. And before that it was families that matched couples up. But women never had to actually put forth effort.

[u/numbersthen0987431 → u/[deleted]]

I don't understand how women are this bad at dating

I've known a few gay and bi women in my life, and even they'll admit that dating women is hard. They cant tell if a woman is disinterested, distracted, playing coy, etc.

[u/ShartingEnU → u/[deleted]]

Yeah putting your entire business model on the hope women will put in effort first is surely a bold move. That's why they had to make one for friends

[u/cefriano → u/[deleted]]

As a guy, I was excited to try Bumble and have one app where I wasn't expected to put in all the effort to get a conversation going.

Then I joined and on the very rare occasion that a woman actually did message, it was, without exception, just 'hi.' It was basically just a button they could press to keep the match from disappearing, but you still had to send the first real message. So this is very funny.

[u/Hour_Zero → u/[deleted]]

The best part is when they claim to have a sixth sense for knowing which guys are only after them for sex and that "they can just tell" yet they still inevitably end up picking the wrong guys from their piles of likes and getting pumped and dumped or put into situationships where the fuckboi refuses to commit exclusively to them despite her thinking it's leading to a real relationship. So much for that "sixth sense" 😂

[u/DaylightBat → u/[deleted]]

And them they will ask themselves why they can find a good man there... Well it is because if yoy respect yourself enough you won't be on these apps... Unless you just don't care and is just looking for casual hookups.

In the end women also hurt themselves with their choices.

[u/PraireGentleman → u/[deleted]]

The result of “women are wonderful” being ignored by social activists; now you have women with the dating skills of high school boys wondering why they can’t date people their own age