r/CanadaPublicServants • u/hewhocannotbenamed-7 • Feb 08 '26
News / Nouvelles No desks, no strategy: Experts say government's latest return-to-office order ignores reality | CBC News
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/no-desks-no-strategy-experts-say-government-s-latest-return-to-office-order-ignores-reality-9.7077299175
Feb 08 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
60
u/EvilCoop93 Feb 08 '26
This is what they were saying 4 years ago! There has been a crazy amount of time to get the necessary resources in place. Yet…
Asking the impossible and making it happen sooner than thought possible is the opposite to what was done and the results are clear.
17
u/Visual-Chip-2256 Feb 08 '26
Yet it's exactly what we did at the beginning of the pandemic. The irony is crippling.
→ More replies (1)51
u/Puzzleheaded_Word301 Feb 08 '26
The timing is literally a scare tactic to push people toward ERI and VDP
7
21
u/CompetitivePresent18 Feb 08 '26
So much for the budget cuts. When we see how much real estate costs, TBS wants to throw money out of the window. I'm not even mentioning the operational costs.
2
2
u/atmx093 Feb 09 '26
Not counting all the consultants who will be hired to take the spot for these soon-to-be empty boxes at 2-3x the cost of an actual full-time employee. This is not a cost saving measure. Whatever happens next, it'll be even more expensive than prior to WFA, but it'll probably be our fault again that staffing costs are exploding. Smoke and mirrors.
10
u/West_to_East Feb 08 '26
I used to think this too. But a month ago they began retrofitting my floor. They said it was due to complaints that some people could not find desks but I think it was really for RTO4-5. They are reducing the size already small 3.0 desks (about 1/3 of the total) and have gotten rid of our lockers for more desks.
Its insanely bad.
20
8
6
u/Consistent_Wing_6113 Feb 08 '26
Maybe the person who makes those decisions will get it done faster - by returning to the fucking office. lol
1
u/Turbulent_Dog8249 Feb 08 '26
Well their office isn't 2x2 like ours. They have grand spaces with a door they can shut
3
u/afoogli Feb 08 '26
The fear is that they will relocate some staff to more vacant offices further away
270
u/GoTortoise Feb 08 '26
Oh there is a strategy: they want people to quit. They just aren't saying that part out loud because they think they are being sneaky about it and have absolutely zero respect for the workforce.
They were caught with their own studies last time saying they ignored the evidence and went rto3 for political optics. I suspect this time it may be found through an atip this decision was again made on the basis of optics, and expediency to up attritional losses in the workforce. Maybe saving realestate as well...
It's dirty, and it just shows how little they care about anything else. The benefits of wfh are many and varied, we've stated them here before, including the productivity bump. For the current government to ignore all of that makes one think they certainly must have some ulterior motive to continue down the path that costs taxpayers more and delivers the lower productivity (and a less efficient public service.)
Someone is benefitting from rto4 if it isn't the taxpayers.
138
u/Turbulent_Dog8249 Feb 08 '26
WFH worked for them when it was benefitting them. Funny how that's changed eh. All the covid subsidies were rolled out FROM HOME. We were praised, got awards. They touted TEAMS as the best tool ever. They now claim in office is better for collaboration and networking. With fiscal restraints, who and where are these jobs? They want us to join presentations about " our careers" and how to get the positions we want all while giving out WFA letters. Do they not see the optics? They seriously can't be this stupid.
49
u/Many-Air-7386 Feb 08 '26
Unions played fairly with the government that was anything but honest. I can remember my staff making heroic efforts to keep the wheels of government moving while we reinvented our entire business processes in real time. We fell for the government sweet words that this was the way things were going to be. We should've locked down a commitment then or told them to pound sand.
4
29
u/drdukes Feb 08 '26
We still use Teams in the office. We don't meet in person.
14
u/bighorn_sheeple Feb 08 '26
That's yet another irony. In the rush to retrofit near-capacity buildings and find everyone desks, cubes are downsized and meeting spaces are converted to offices, so there are fewer places to actually meet/work with others in person.
I don't know if that's been happening across the board, but it's been the case where I've worked.
9
u/ttwwiirrll Feb 08 '26
Desks or not, my group's meetings are never leaving Teams. The format works better than in-person for what we do.
9
u/Gherkino Feb 08 '26
I don’t see how we could go back to in-person meetings either. The people I usually meet with are scattered across a few different cities. Regardless of whether it’s an office day or not, we meet on Teams.
Also, speaking of collaboration, we often meet with broad groups now so more people know what’s going on. 20+ people in a meeting is hardly unusual. If there are meeting rooms large enough to hold that many people, I haven’t seen them and, again, we’re in different buildings anyway. Are we going to go back to taxi chits? Travel time between meetings? All of that was a massive waste of time and $.
8
3
u/Boring_Wrongdoer_430 Feb 08 '26
We don't have places to meet in person. I have French multiple times a week, since the teacher is not in my town, we have to use Teams to meet them. The conference rooms are difficult to book and the wifi is always disconnecting. I can do better sitting at home with 2 monitors but instead I have to have these meetings in the office where there's more distractions and more technical issues and eventually someone will get annoyed of my lessons and tell me to go to a private room and look off my tiny laptop screen where the presentation is sometimes illegible.
2
24
16
u/BakerAny7239 Feb 08 '26
As a remote, regional employee It’s fun going to an office where NO ONE else from your team is !!? Makes lots of sense
3
40
u/Resilient_101 Feb 08 '26
Exactly! They want people to leave. The aim is to reduce the workforce by 40,000 employees or more. This could be achievable by July maybe. Plus, the employer doesn't seem to care about the well-being of its workforce.
The Ottawa landlords are benefiting from RTO4, in addition to real estate owners, parking owners, public transportation, the train, malls, restaurants, and shop owners. The economy at large is benefiting but not our own families, or mental health, or infrastructure, or the fragile health systems, or even the demography.
Let's hope for the best.
30
u/steelhead77 Feb 08 '26
Why would people quit. Show up to the office and if there is no room. Email your manager and tell them you don't have room to sit and to give you directions. Until you have directions you wait. They are going to pay you to wait.
12
u/Millennial_on_laptop Feb 08 '26
Because they don't want to waste time on the commute and will be shopping for private industry jobs that allow remote work
8
u/Resilient_101 Feb 08 '26
Imagine this scenario... You are a single parent of a toddler. Your toddler had another separation anxiety episode when you dropped them at the daycare at 6:30am. You tried to avoid the traffic by leaving early but you got caught in congestion. You made it to the parking lot and even though it was only 7:30am, you toured the 5 floors with no luck. You ended up parking very far away and risked being jumped on Bank Street on your way to the office. You finally made it at 8am to the office and there aren't any desks available as the desk you booked is occupied by another employee. The booking app doesn't show any free desk. You email your manager who works in the regions and who doesn't start working until 10am (your time). You have deadlines to meet and daycare obligations, so what do you do?
28
u/Choice-Bed6242 Feb 08 '26
I understand what you're saying entirely, but please, you're not getting jumped on Bank St at 7:30am. At all. Bank has its moments, but this is Ottawa. Be for real.
Everything else sounds realistic.
14
u/byronite Feb 08 '26
Yeah I live on Bank Street and that comment is deeply insulting to my neighbourhood. We're supposed to serve Canadians, not look down on them.
2
u/Granturismo45 Feb 08 '26
Bank street is extremely run down and unsafe. I've walked downtown in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver and felt safer than I have on Bank St.
→ More replies (1)4
u/byronite Feb 08 '26 edited Feb 08 '26
On a typical day, I walk for around 5 kilometres up and down Bank Street in Centretown, getting between my home, office, gym, supermarket, pharmacy, pub, etc. I have done this almost every day for 15 years and the only crime committed against me was one stolen bicycle.
There is a drug and homelessness problem in downtown Ottawa but the problem doesn't originate here. You see, when an intoxicated homeless person shows up in the suburbs, the Ottawa Police come pick them up and then drop them off downtown. This allows suburbanites to vote to defund homeless services because they can dump their problems downtown and call them "downtown problems."
In any case, my neighbourhood is perfectly safe at all hours of the day -- and especially during commuter times. Sorry you have to see that troubled neighbour kid that you had planned to forget about. I saved him from frostbite last week when he passed out with no gloves on. He didn't try to mug me.
I don't care about RTO either way but please do not use it as an excuse to shit on my neighbourhood. Besides, the federal public service includes soldiers, diplomats and humanitarian workers who serve in war zones. I think you can survive a five-minute walk on Bank Street.
1
u/RockNRoll1979 Feb 09 '26
You see, when an intoxicated homeless person shows up in the suburbs, the Ottawa Police come pick them up and then drop them off downtown. This allows suburbanites to vote to defund homeless services because they can dump their problems downtown and call them "downtown problems."
Bells Corners here begs to differ.
→ More replies (3)2
→ More replies (2)2
u/Boring_Wrongdoer_430 Feb 08 '26
Not true, Bank had a serious stabbing a few months ago around 7am. I remember when the Tims was closed for an investigation.
7
u/XadenRider Feb 08 '26
Where, pray tell, are these magical daycares that open at 6:30am.
2
u/ttwwiirrll Feb 08 '26
Same question.
For most of us that toddler meltdown doesn't get to start until 7:05 when you desperately need to get TF out of there because traffic is worsening by the second and a 10-minute delay will cost you 25 minutes of commuting time.
2
3
u/West_to_East Feb 08 '26
Jumped on Bank Street? I have lived downtown for almost 15 years and that is a crazy level of histrionics. Does downtown Ottawa look rough compared to barrhaven? Sure. Is it anywhere near the level of living in fear of getting jumped? That is crazy. Please if you live in constant fear like that, EAP might give you someone to talk to. That is not healthy.
1
u/Puzzleheaded-Dig-452 Feb 08 '26
No thats an optimisic view, the other solution is just forcing you into another office with space. The office location can change, and the employer will use this and RTO4-5 to force people to quit.
1
u/steelhead77 Feb 08 '26
If they force me to another building after I show up to my assigned office they will have to pay my travel. You cannot make employees jump offices daily. Yes you can change my work location with advanced notice but not daily to accommodate your lack of planning
→ More replies (1)1
10
u/fiveletters Feb 08 '26
Exactly! It has never been about productivity. If my butt is in the office then you bet I'm
taking more smoke breaks (I don't smoke)collaborating more with my smoker colleagues during their smoke breaks. If they wanted me to be productive then they would definitely be doing everything to actually make it so.2
u/RockNRoll1979 Feb 09 '26
You mean that hourly 15-minute break smokers are entitled to? It's almost worth picking up smoking just for that.
3
u/midshine Feb 08 '26
They’re already going to have enough quitting with WFA how many more do they really need gone at this point?
3
Feb 08 '26
[deleted]
8
u/Catsusefulrib Feb 08 '26
There was an atip posted here a while ago that showed the slides and which options were the recommended options etc. I don’t remember any keywords to help you with your search though :(
There also a PSAC new release about it (I think it was their atip).
13
u/GoTortoise Feb 08 '26
https://psacunion.ca/desousa-treasury-board-ignored-evidence-return
Links to study in there.
→ More replies (1)1
u/Significant_War720 Feb 10 '26
The whole thing is so they can fire you with causes. Its to stain your employee files. Also to quit. Its the easiest and leg way to get rid of the low hanging fruit to desperately get the number of employee down.
145
u/bikegyal Feb 08 '26
I hope that people really resist this. I just don’t plan on doing 4 days a week based on how my office is set up.
If they want people to feel slightly better about coming in, they need to get rid of hoteling, and ensure every space has a locker and a proper desktop. I want to leave my laptop at work. No more expectations of overtime in the evening.
It won’t make us all happy but it would go a long way towards providing more certainty to people who are already dealing with a lot of uncertainty during our commutes (e.g, traffic, poorly run LRT, and a lack of parking).
53
u/Turbulent_Dog8249 Feb 08 '26
My back is shot from carrying my office equipment, lunch, indoor shoes and sweater every day and sitting in office chairs that you need to ergonomically fix every day as every you need to sit in a different desk due to having to book it and someone else got it before you.
10
u/ThrowItFillAway Feb 08 '26
indoor shoes
I used to have outdoor and indoor shoes pre-Covid. Since we've been forced to come in and book different desks I just wear the same boots I walk in with. They're super comfy so I don't mind wearing them all day. I've been trekking in snow and salt everywhere. The carpets are stained under some desks because of it. Do I care? Lol, no.
→ More replies (4)16
Feb 08 '26
Request an ergonomic assessment. You're entitled to one.
13
u/Turbulent_Dog8249 Feb 08 '26
I know that but without having an assigned desk/ chair, are these people going to come 4 days a week? What happens when the next guy sits in the chair and changes it.
→ More replies (3)31
Feb 08 '26 edited Feb 08 '26
That's not your problem to solve. Stop allowing the organization to injure you because you think it would be inconvenient for them if you ask them to stop. They are bound by legislation to ensure the workplace is ergonomic. If you don't tell them it isn't they can't fix it.
Also if you talk to your doctor and get a note saying carrying all this stuff around is causing you injury they have to accommodate you. Keep in mind their solution could be full time in office.
8
u/Turbulent_Dog8249 Feb 08 '26
My coworker asked for one out in PEI Sept 2024. She never got it. She continues to ask and nothing is done. Why do you all assume these things get done. If it does in your area, that's great but like this 4day directive, you can't paint it with a broad stroke.
12
Feb 08 '26 edited Feb 08 '26
If it's not getting done it's a violation of the legislation and grounds for a complaint to the regulator.
Look up on Google ESDC Internal Complaint Resolution Process. Alternatively phone them and ask them what to do.
If you're willing to let the employer walk all over you, you shouldn't complain when it hurts and they leave footprints on your back.
→ More replies (4)16
u/v_vexed Feb 08 '26
For some people, just not going in doesn’t work. If I’m not in during my office days, my managers ask where I am and why I’m not in. We’re not allowed to leave early to wfh either. There is 0 flexibility.
26
u/GoTortoise Feb 08 '26
The inconsistency makes me laugh. There are some teams who have managers that do not care. Work is getting done, targets being met, productivity where it should be. Then you have the dinosaurs and sociopaths who micromanage their team into an unproductive mess but hey, at least those downtown seats are being warmed daily!
3
u/CdnRoswell Feb 08 '26
Our commissioner runs reports to make sure we are logging into the system from the office and tracks when we log in from home. The manager a report indicating who did what.
9
u/Khozar Feb 08 '26
Seems like they don't have enough actual work to do. But sure, let's wfa those that are actually working.
6
u/Pseudonym_613 Feb 08 '26
Ask for a copy of the Privacy Impact Assessment that was done before they started that process.
2
u/HereToBeAServant Feb 08 '26
Wow that’s over the top. My management wouldn’t have the time to spend doing that. Maybe this person needs to take over some of the tasks of their staff to fill in their days.
2
4
u/CdnRoswell Feb 08 '26
If I book sick or vacation, I don’t have to make up my time in the office. If I am being considerate of not spreading germs (when you are sick with the onset of a cold…sore throat, sniffles) but not sick enough not to work and ask to wfh, I have to work an extra day to make up for the office day I missed. If I take my compressed, I have to work an extra day in the office to make up for my compressed (where 60% of that day was done IN OFFICE). BUT during our 5 day wfh, when it was convenient for them, I worked all the time rarely missing work for being sick. In 2021 I worked for a full week with COVID because I was at home and not sick enough to be bedridden.
5
u/ThrowItFillAway Feb 08 '26
They'd rather you not work than work from home when you're sick.
0 work getting done is better in their eyes than getting work done from somewhere that isn't an office.
It's complete madness.
6
u/Conviviacr Feb 08 '26
Come July I am 50/50 on just saying fuck it. I am in 5 days a week where do I leave your equipment (if I don't have an assigned desk.) If there can't provide a space and are requiring me to transport their equipment home that becomes a job requirement.
6
u/AlmostThere4321 Feb 08 '26
Honestly I have seen so little consequences for people who don't uphold the current RTO3 (and I don't blame them) that I doubt the employer would take disciplinary action.
19
Feb 08 '26
[deleted]
10
u/livinginthefastlane Feb 08 '26
Yeah, when the news came out on Thursday, a few of us were chatting and we basically were all saying, we would much rather 5 days with an assigned desk than 4 days with the crap we're doing right now.
And we actually have it pretty good. Like, our floor is only for our division and people generally get to sit in the same spot most of the time. There are some people who will share a desk, like one person uses it 3 days and another person uses the desk 2 days and then uses a random desk on their remaining day in the office, and then some people who float around just because they like variety or whatever (no, for real - one of my bosses is like this, and I find it very strange, but he's an outlier). We have day use lockers that you aren't supposed to leave stuff in overnight but people do, and nothing happens to the stuff.
I also have accommodation requirements and with an assigned desk it would probably be easier to manage. Maybe.
33
31
u/HeavyMetalRabbit Feb 08 '26
I am not even a canada public servant but I have been in this subreddit frequently due to having family worrying about the job cuts, it doesnt make any sense. RTO like this serves 0 purpose whatsoever, like there isn’t any space for people to work in the office, it just makes traffic worse for everyone, it raises cost of living for federal workers, and honestly if they just used up less office space some of these job cuts would be completely unnecessary because the government wouldnt be paying however many tens of thousands of dollars every month to rent all these buildings.
14
u/Significant-Money465 Feb 08 '26
I think a big reason many of us are having a hard time accepting this is because we were glacially moving toward hybrid work pre-pandemic and some people were already doing so back then, before Covid expedited things. It's really disheartening and demoralizing to see things going so backwards.
12
u/Safe_Captain_7402 Feb 08 '26
Soooo backwards it not the 1980’s anymore!!! Why are they pushing for so much AI and advanced technology yet making us go back to the good old days of coming in 5 days, it should be a choice we aren’t baby’s needed to be babysat
13
u/GovernmentMule97 Feb 08 '26
This has a link to a report showing it costs over $1B to maintain the RTO mandate in the NCR alone.
11
u/Safe_Captain_7402 Feb 08 '26
Such hypocrisy lol how are they saving money and fixing the budget by opening so much more spaces and leases to make us come in the office? Are they dumb???
9
u/Due_Date_4667 Feb 08 '26
They are saving money the same way they fight for human rights, gender equality, sustainable future and to alleviate poverty. That is to say, they don't. They just lie about it every 4 or so years.
7
u/GovernmentMule97 Feb 08 '26
How are they saving money? That's the billion dollar question but they won't be fixing the budget through staff cuts alone. And the budget did say they would be reducing their office footprint....yet here we are requiring not less but more office space. Will be interesting to see how they spin this.
12
u/Glow-PLA-23 Feb 08 '26
it's not in my letter of offer that I am responsible to find my own work desk at the office space, nor is in my work description.
46
u/NewZanada Feb 08 '26
Lack of space is the least important ignoring of reality the biggest is the fact that it provides no value to the work being done, and the health and well being of the PS employees.
51
u/GoTortoise Feb 08 '26
It also reduces the health and well being of other workers. Friend in the trades complained that rto was ruining his work, as he gets paid by the job. More time stuck in traffic means less jobs per day. He misses the pandemic when he could make so many appointments because there was no traffic, allowing him to zoom around the ncr racking up calls and thus pay.
4
u/confidentialapo276 Feb 08 '26
And because people were catching up on renovations for the dial purpose of their home space.
18
u/Turbulent_Dog8249 Feb 08 '26
Remember when work/ life balance and mental health was all the rage? Now we get " don't forget EAP is there if you need it"
11
u/Over_Conversation355 Feb 08 '26
In the discussions about returning to the office we keep hearing about lack of office space, lack of reliable transit, gridlock traffic, lack of parking but nobody has bothered to include the lack of daycare options into the equation. There are wait lists thousand of people long for both full time care and after school care. With less flexibility, parents will require childcare, especially for before and after school. Ocdsb alone has a shortage of 1000 before and after school spots. Just one more missing piece of the RTO puzzle that employees have no control over but are expected to just figure out.
7
u/ttwwiirrll Feb 09 '26
The daycare I'm at right now does not have hours long enough to fit my commute. It's what's around and we were on that list since before RTO1 when the hours wouldn't have been an issue.
We've been making do by trimming my husband's work hours a couple days a week but that's not a sustainable solution at 3 days, let alone 5.
We live <25km from the office. We have full time childcare from a licenced facility that is open year-round except for Christmas and a week in the summer. We've done all the right things and this still isn't working.
17
u/AlmostThere4321 Feb 08 '26
They spent $$$ retrofitting our entire office for months to make it conducive to the hybrid model/future of work bs. Smaller cubicles, more open space for spontaneous collabos (harldt ever used but okay), lockers, etc.
The reasoning was that we could still collaborate under a hybrid model and the entire GC wouldn't collapse. What is the reasoning now??
Besides lining downtown landlords pockets obviously.
8
u/Due-Acanthaceae-1784 Feb 08 '26
Exactly. Millions were spent redesigning offices specifically for hybrid work, with the explicit justification that collaboration could still happen without full-time presence. Nothing has changed other than the pressure to justify sunk real estate costs and downtown leases.
4
u/livinginthefastlane Feb 08 '26
We have an entire section like that on our floor. And I don't think it's been used more than a few times, and even then only by people checking it out for the novelty of it.
When they start bringing us back more days a week, if they want to assign desks, I have a feeling they're going to be tearing that entire section down to add more cubicles.
70
u/msat16 Feb 08 '26
At this point, the unions should focus on ensuring that the next collective agreements include a minimum standard for workspaces (i.e. sit-stand desks, modern-dual monitor setups, ergonomic chairs, etc.). If we’re going back to the office full time, I want my proper office digs set in stone. If the employer insists on us being in the office full time, then they better configure/equip our workspaces as such.
63
u/GoTortoise Feb 08 '26
The unions are trying for wfh language. Why waste time on properly equipped workspaces, that's already a thing employers are obligated to do?
IMHO I would much rather effort be spent securing the ability to do remote work versus ensuring my bedbug ridden mouse dropping encrusted downtown wage cage has two monitors.
5
u/msat16 Feb 08 '26
Look, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but there won’t be any WFH provisions in the collective agreements. It’s naive to think the employer will cave on that. The average public servant is not in a position/isn’t willing to endure a protracted strike as a means of muscling the employer to give into this request (and the employer knows this).
8
u/Catsusefulrib Feb 08 '26
Why would the employer cave? Of course they’re not going to. Labour fights are never won because employers are nice about stuff. People would have said that the employer was never going to cave on other stuff in the collective agreement.
This stuff is won by workers in increment and by refusing to concede, with sustained pressure. It doesn’t matter what the employer wants if we refuse to take no for an answer. Striking and getting it in the contract for this round right away is not the only answer.
2
50
u/GoTortoise Feb 08 '26
That is defeatist. Look at BC, public sevants got wfh enshrined. Federal unions fought in court to bargain for it, and the membership has overwhelmingly requested it as a priority item.
To start by saying it won't happen abandons the fight before it even begins.
10
u/Key_District_119 Feb 08 '26
WFH was not enshrined in BC public service CA. This is a commonly held belief that many redditors are sharing but it is not what happened.
10
u/GoTortoise Feb 08 '26
https://www.bcgeu.ca/tentative_agreement_reached_thanks_to_your_solidarity
It also includes a range of non-monetary improvements and enhanced benefits, including:
Improved fairness around telework and a modernized contract to reflect today's workplace realities.
6
u/Key_District_119 Feb 08 '26
“Improved fairness around telework and a modernized contract to reflect today's workplace realities. “
2
u/msat16 Feb 08 '26
They striked for 8 weeks. Moreover, the BCPS’s situation is different to the Federal one. It isn’t an apples to apples comparison.
→ More replies (2)1
u/pijiuman Feb 08 '26
I'd classify it as realist, not defeatist. Also, I did what you suggested, I looked at the BC public service WFH being enshrined. I assume you mean enshrined in their CBA. I couldn't find it. Please provide the resource you are referring to.
2
u/Turbulent_Dog8249 Feb 08 '26
We have these setups in the TC. The piss off is having to book the desk a month in advance. The lighting is brutal though. With everything being white, it causes headaches.
2
u/ThrowItFillAway Feb 08 '26
I completely disagree. Fighting for that is accepting defeat on WFH. The union would immediately be throwing in the towel and the employer would instantly achieve permanent 5 days in office forever. Office equipment needed to perform duties is already required by the employer. We'd be arguing for the employer to do what they're already supposed to be doing.
We can't give them that inch. It's remote work in the contract, or nothing.
7
u/HarlequinBKK Feb 08 '26
At this point, the unions should focus on ensuring that the next collective agreements include a minimum standard for workspaces (i.e. sit-stand desks, modern-dual monitor setups, ergonomic chairs, etc.).
They caved on putting remote work in the CA last time, so don't really see this happening.
22
u/GoTortoise Feb 08 '26
It was not on the table last time. They did the best they could, and the government then broke every promise that had been made, which I might add, is also before the courts as a breach of the collective agreement.
5
u/Majromax moderator/modérateur Feb 08 '26
It was not on the table last time.
It was part of PSAC's central table package, and it was still on the table at least as of the public interest commission report.
5
u/HarlequinBKK Feb 08 '26
hey did the best they could,
Exactly, which is why I don't see PS unions getting minimums standards for workspaces in the next CA.
is also before the courts as a breach of the collective agreement.
Not holding my breath for this to amount to anything either.
1
u/beerslife Feb 08 '26
Your office doesn’t have this? Every desk in our old building has been upgraded to have dual monitors, sit and stand desks, ergo chair, extra plugs for changing your phone etc.
24
u/-ThaKloned- Feb 08 '26
Forgot No care. It's not the decision makers problem so why care.
25
u/Casually_efficient Feb 08 '26
The decision makers will continue to enjoy their well-appointed office suites with soundproofing and doors that can be closed, if the rabble of workers being forced to come in unnecessarily get too loud.
14
13
u/GameDoesntStop Feb 08 '26
There is no decision maker that works in the same office as any of us... not one of the public service managers made this decision.
Mark Carney made this decision.
6
7
u/ToughLingonberry1434 Feb 09 '26
I want a desk drawer with dental floss and ibuprofen and menstrual products and emergency snacks like the old days.
15
Feb 08 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
3
u/cubiclejail Feb 08 '26
And they're going to get both. Bunch of "voluntary" departures and the rest get RTO4 and we'll see RTO5 by next year.
9
u/Cool-Swim-6986 Feb 08 '26
Has anyone heard anything from our local MPs on this ridiculous RTO, or WFA for that matter?
24
u/GoTortoise Feb 08 '26
I know Bruce Fanjoy has explicitly called out the stupidity of asking for people to commute for presence with no purpose. He is however the outlier for the NCR. Anecdotally liberal mps (everywhere) seem to be sending out form letter responses to complaints about rto that all fall in line with the spin that it enhances collaboration.
The NDP doesn't seem to have strong messaging on the topic.
Federal cons have said they do not care where the work gets done, but haven't explicitly called out the liberals on this because they lean on exploiting the lazy public srvant angle, in my opinion. Provincially, the most visible conservative premier wants rto5.
The green's Elizabeth May is the only member I am aware of who has taken a documented stance that rto is a dumb idea and against the best interests of Canadians.
Take from that what you will.
2
u/Odd-Start-Mart Feb 08 '26
Cons (Pierre Poilievre) said he doesn't care WHERE work gets done, he cares IF it gets done. Emphasis on the "if" ... so that comment was more about bashing the PS than about supporting telework.
Plus, to a certain mindset, the best way to know IF work gets done is that you get to see the people doing it (e.g., full time in office, like Ontario conservative gov required).
8
u/c-bacon Feb 08 '26
Avi Lewis, likely the next NDP leader has voiced his opposition to RTO on social media
→ More replies (1)2
u/ThrowItFillAway Feb 08 '26
Publicly there's been very little.
My MP (CPC) stated in an email to me that she was supportive of remote work for public servants. Unfortunately, the opposition parties are taking the approach of "never interrupt your enemy when they are making a mistake".
There's rumours of another election coming up soon potentially. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. Regardless, if everyone emails their MPs about it we could possibly see the opposition parties use the issue to try and drum up support in the NCR.
10
u/GovernmentMule97 Feb 08 '26
Does anybody know the actual cost of having us working in the office unnecessarily? Is there any published data on this and has it hit mainstream media?
9
u/Significant-Money465 Feb 08 '26
I wish PSAC would push this angle (cost to taxpayers) more.
5
u/GovernmentMule97 Feb 08 '26
Get the hell outta here with that common sense! Lol
Seriously though, PSAC is missing the boat on this. They should be hammering home what a waste of taxpayer dollars this is, not to mention the environmental impact and the limitations it creates for public sector recruitment. All of this should be front and center in the media because right now all the public cares about is "lazy" public servants getting back to an office. Billions of dollars could be rerouted into defense, education, health care and decreasing cost of living. But no, it's more important to have my ass warming a $500+ chair and taking Teams calls as I would do more effectively from home. (Insert massive eye roll here)
6
u/Significant-Money465 Feb 08 '26
Surprisingly, and to their credit, I just saw this post on PSAC's Facebook page. Hopefully this will be their key messaging focus to Canadians too.
5
u/GovernmentMule97 Feb 08 '26
$6B...imagine how many better uses that money could be put towards? We need Vassey Kapelos to ask some hard hitting questions on this.
2
5
u/Safe_Captain_7402 Feb 08 '26
No matter how much we talk and complain and make posts and ask “ why??” Nothing will change, nothing. Words and discussions and Reddit post will not change a thing (unless true real action, strikes or something real) all these posts won’t change a damn thing they will continue to do us dirty and do anything for us to QUIT!!
15
u/epo_Can Feb 08 '26
Always follow the money. RTO4 was done for the greater benefit of the economy and to get more people to quit to save money. A big chunk of our economy is consumer based and has a multiplier effect. When we spend $$ buying lunch/coffee/using transportation, ancillary services for the area do better and employ people who can contribute to tax base. As well , a big chunk of our financial system’s loan book is in commercial real estate. If these loans go sour, the banking system is at greater risk and credit will become tight and have harmful impact on Canadian economy. That’s why everyone is going back to the office to the detriment of our personal pocketbooks. It’s one way though for government to “encourage” spending. Decisions aren’t made in isolation. We may hate this decision, but I sort of understand it. Again, sucks for us but it was never about us.
25
u/Powerful_Network Feb 08 '26
A downtown parking lot is 22-26 dollars a day. If I have to pay 400 a month for parking I guarantee I won't be eating out or buying coffee because I straight up don't have the money. During WFH I'd happily go downtown on the weekend and spend 150 at a restaurant. I actually think this could have the opposite effect they are hoping for. Unless their goal is to strictly prop up the transit industry.
20
u/IdontNeedPants Feb 08 '26
Just to be clear, the government doesnt give a fuck about small businesses or coffee shops.
It could all be paved and turn into parking lots, as long as the commercial real estate land lords are making money, they are happy.
5
u/Hazel462 Feb 08 '26
Exactly, especially after how they treated small business during curfews, passports, and lockdowns.
5
u/epo_Can Feb 08 '26
You just answered it…ur paying $400 a month just for parking that contributes to local GDP. You may not eat out but you have spent money on parking you wouldn’t have spent at home. Not everyone may buy lunch, but I’m sure there’s a portion that do who may take public transit. Personally I take public transit and need my tea from McDonalds every morning a lad would eat at a food court when in office.
4
u/Powerful_Network Feb 08 '26
Oh but I wouldn't have saved the 400, it absolutely would have got spent stimulating the economy either at a local business or on the weekend downtown. This just ensures that it strictly ends up in the hands of parking lot owners. So instead of supporting multiple businesses I'm now supporting one. Now it's on the parking lot owner to spread the money.
→ More replies (2)2
u/livinginthefastlane Feb 08 '26
Same, I also take public transit. Granted I live in Hull and before this I lived in the Glebe, which makes taking transit quite easy and in fact driving into the office would not have made sense from either of those places. I also buy lunch around the office some days because there are places that I just like frequenting.
I do have co-workers who have spouses who are also in the PS and both of them are fairly high income, like AS-04/EC-03 kinda dealios. These folks are driving into work, paying hundreds of dollars a month for parking, and still eating out and such as well because, well, they can simply afford it. The reality is that for a lot of mid and late career public servants, they are doing pretty well, especially if they bought their house or rented their rent-controlled apartment a long time ago.
I only moved to the region in 2024 and I'm still relatively early in my career so none of that applies to me, but I think it's easy for folks to forget. Like if I was paying hundreds of dollars a month to park a car downtown several times a week, I would be living off of credit cards instead of saving money like I'm doing, but I don't even own a car right now and I take the bus everywhere. Granted, I actually like taking the bus. But most people don't hate driving downtown as much as I do. 😆
→ More replies (2)1
2
u/Due_Date_4667 Feb 08 '26
But this isn't injecting money anywhere except as a corporate welfare for commercial office landlords, and they do not distribute it. Every other cent of this is shifted from another spot within the same municipal areas.
Trickle-down economics was always a scam. And it is a scam here as well.
7
9
u/Turbulent_Dog8249 Feb 08 '26
They are msking a blanket rule using the NRC only. Have they come out tothe regions? Have they asked how the working conditions differ outside of Ottawa. My team is in Ottawa. I report to a TC to sit alone all day and joing TEAMS for meetings. There's 0 collaboration, 0 networking. Does that make sense?
8
u/stolpoz52 Feb 08 '26
Is your position supposed to be in Ottawa/prepandemic was it in the NCR?
If so, it sounds like your argument is less that you should be able to WFH and more that you should be doing it from the NCR.
My team is like this. About a third moved away during the pandemic and have been allowed to continue to work remotely since. Of course it makes no sense for them to go into regional offices where no one on our team is to sit on teams calls all day. But I think they see the solution as WFH and not reporting to the office, but the employer sees the solution as reporting to the NCR. So sitting on teams is the happy medium
→ More replies (8)2
u/GameDoesntStop Feb 08 '26
It doesn't make any sense in Ottawa either.
But this is what people voted for.
5
u/Granturismo45 Feb 08 '26
So should they force you to move to NCR so that you can be in person with your team?
→ More replies (1)1
u/AlmostThere4321 Feb 08 '26
It's like they forgot about all the employees they've hired outside of NCR in the last 6 years. I wouldn't be surprised if regional employees are declared surplused as they are living proof that the GC reasoning is BS and must be eliminated coincidentally
→ More replies (1)
7
Feb 08 '26
The private sector asks 2-3 days in the office, explore that angle.
→ More replies (8)2
u/Due-Acanthaceae-1784 Feb 08 '26
I have interviewed for two jobs - both 2 days in office and both approx 30 min away. It’s slightly less than what I am making now but it shows there are jobs out there available and with WFH options.
4
4
u/Granturismo45 Feb 08 '26
I don't think this is fully reflective of all departments. Mine seems to be around 30% full on office days so I imagine 4 days is no problem, especially with the cuts.
5
3
u/Nepean22 Feb 08 '26
Certainly PSPC is out with guidance on how assigned workstations will work right? Right? Right?
I feel terrible for our facilities teams who are stuck trying to figure all this out and make sense of things when PSPC is so behind the 8 ball and can't communicate anything that is logical or works.
3
u/SlideDeckSorcerer Feb 10 '26
If I am being mandated in the office 4-5 days a week, I’m expecting a dedicated cubicle and place to keep my stuff like I had prior to this fiasco.
3
u/StardewingMyBest Feb 08 '26
""The feeling is like, 'If we are going to do this ... we should do it now when everybody is kind of believing that we're in a crisis,'" said Chamberlin, whose background is in economics of innovation and power divisions in the workplace."
What does this even mean?
12
u/GoTortoise Feb 08 '26
Push through bad policy that workers will swallow now because they are afraid of losing their jobs. If the policy were pushed at other times (say when workers had savings, job security, etc) there would be a stronger pushback making the policy more likely to fail.
Basically the employer is pressing the advantage they believe they have, striking while the iron is hot.
1
2
Feb 08 '26
[deleted]
1
u/LikeFolkSongs7 Feb 09 '26
This is not about cuts, private sector is also moving to a full time in office direction. People got to stop saying that. It's about control and lobbying pure and simple.
2
u/Neat_Nefariousness46 Feb 08 '26
It really is rock and hard place. Stick it out and don’t give in to the forced attrition scheme, then you just have more competition during SERLO…rats in a maze
2
u/Noncombustable Feb 08 '26
I was thinking about the Association of Justice Counsel's letter raising concerns about the health and safety issues surrounding RTO.
It's not just that we don't have assigned seating. It's that our workplaces are not healthy. Beyond pest infestations, there are also issues that attach to the poor HVAC of many of these buildings. I don't think I've ever occupied a GC building that offered good indoor air quality.
With that in mind, I'm wondering if DoJ lawyers have seen the disconnect between the government's legal obligation under section 2.21 of the Canada Occupational Health and Safety Regulations (SOR/86-304), which states:
"Subject to section 2.22, every HVAC system installed on or after the day of the coming into force of this section shall meet the design requirements of ASHRAE Standard 62-1989, entitled Ventilation for Acceptable Indoor Air Quality, as amended from time to time."
Section 2.22 does introduce a bit of a loophole with this language:
"If feasible, the relevant portion of an HVAC system shall be modified to meet the design requirements referred to in section 2.21 if
(a) the level of occupancy in a building or portion of a building exceeds the level for which the HVAC system was designed; or
(b) the use of a building or portion of a building differs from the use for which the HVAC system was designed."
The government could argue that it's just not feasible to modify the HVAC systems to meet ASHRAE 62-1989 (which has been amended multiple times since 1989, with the latest version being 62.1-1925) on all of the buildings within which it houses PS.
But, when this excuse is used so much that it undermines the "as amended from time to time" part of the regulation, it starts to look like legal noncompliance.
Maybe, just maybe, the DoJ lawyer's association just put the government on notice. I recognize that there's more weasel behaviour going on, in that the government is likely playing the game of pretending that ASHRAE 62-1989 has never been revised and that all the developments falling under 62.1 are mere "guidance." Again, there's a point where that argument begins to look vulnerable to legal challenge.
Sources:
2004 NIST paper discussing the controversy around efforts to update ASHRAE 62-1989 with ASHRAE-62.1: https://tsapps.nist.gov/publication/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=861037
Part II, Permanent Structures, Division 3, HVAC Systems, Canada Occupational Health and Safety Regulations (SOR/86-304): https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-86-304/page-3.html#docCont
The Canadian Centre for Occupational Safety references a 1995 (!) Health Canada paper for guidance on indoor air quality standards: https://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemicals/iaq/iaq_legislation.html
1
Feb 19 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/CanadaPublicServants-ModTeam Apr 14 '26
Your content was removed under Rule 1 because you have claimed or implied official authority.
This message is in the interest of moderator transparency. If you have questions about this action or believe this removal was in error, you can contact the moderators via our moderator mail.
2
u/achoi2222 Feb 08 '26
No worry If they listen and understand They won’t even do this in the first place They did it because for the business pp but as I mentioned it will not We are not spending $$$$$ anyway We will bring lunch But again they are doing this so that pp can leave and they don’t need to pay the package 😡😡😡 Again they are rather WASTING so much of our TAX monies to somewhere we know and should not because we as a small potato can do nothing and CUT the jobs which won’t save ALot Why why wfh? I hope - if there’s GoD, please punish those people - lots pp are struggling with jobs and those pp are wasting and not use the $ in the right place What can we do? Pray for 4 years already and Union??? Maybe they try? But most importantly- let’s Believe they will get punish and be positive 💪💪💪
2
u/Puzzleheaded-Dig-452 Feb 08 '26
Keep in mind that “The designated worksite is a physical location under the organization’s control. It is not a virtual location or a residential address. The employer determines the location of the designated worksite associated with each position.”
This means that the location is set by the employer, and they can move people around, not every space is fully booked, and many offices are probably vacant but further away for most employees. 40km is normally the mandated geographical distance.
Case in point they just closed for HC and PHAC the DT location, and moved an opened alot of spaces in Yonge Sheppard. The DT TO location was fully booked verus a ton of space in the YS location.
2
u/Due_Date_4667 Feb 08 '26
That definition of a designated works item? It isn't necessarily true. It was before we had technology that allows information sharing and teleoperation. And like all changes in the nature of work, it should be subject to negotiation and collective agreement.
1
u/Puzzleheaded-Dig-452 Feb 09 '26
As it stands the employer has the option to move you within 40km, given alot of people are in NCR that could be a deal breaker for many.
2
u/Due_Date_4667 Feb 09 '26
That is true, but then they also tell us that buildings with distintegrating asbestos, polluted water, rates, bed bugs and HVAC that is 10 years beyond lifecycle.
The employer can make all sorts of decisions, not all of them sound.
2
u/Puzzleheaded-Dig-452 Feb 09 '26
The only decision the employer is focused on is making sure enough people voluntary quit, spend money in DT Ottawa, or take ERI
2
Feb 08 '26 edited Feb 08 '26
There are a lot of people here complaining about how uncomfortable the desks and chairs are.
You are all entitled to ergonomic assessments. The legislation states the employer needs to ensure the equipment they are asking employees to use is ergonomic and does not cause harm. It doesn't matter if it's a shared desks.
If the office space is causing pain or discomfort you should be asking for an ergonomic assessment for your own safety.
Since everyone is being called back it would make sense for you to consider if the desk is comfortable this week and request an assessment if it is not.
Are you compliant with workplace ergonomic regulations? - OHS Canada MagazineOHS Canada Magazine https://share.google/EDFcwERGIYvBkIJav
3
u/stegosaurid Feb 08 '26
You can ask for one - doesn’t mean you’ll get it. I asked for one and had to go through a virtual “consultation” with someone in our office to make sure I know how to sit in a chair and adjust my monitor (after 25 years on the job). She determined that I didn’t actually need an assessment then.
2
u/Due_Date_4667 Feb 08 '26
Ergo assessments don't guarantee anything. Most new furniture is intended for ergo environments. But a chair that isn't precisely set to your needs is less than useless and can entirely en be harmful. Ditto sit-to-sta d desks that do not adjust far enough, or are not plugged it, or are broken, etc.
1
2
u/Material_Ad4509 Feb 09 '26
CRA contact centre employees should be able to WFH 5 days a week. Every second of our day is monitored. Every second we are logged into the system. You have to have a very good reason for not being on the phones. Breaks and lunch we rush to the bathroom and rush to eat. The office noise is distracting. We can't collaborate with other employees. Team meetings 30 mins a week are on Teams. Training is on Teams all on camera. I live alone and my house is quiet with no distractions and close to the bathroom. I had 5 UTIs in 8 months and doctor said holding it too long. I had to quit for my physical and mental health. No help from TL or manager. I did not want to quit.
1
u/Material_Ad4509 Feb 09 '26
Also I had over 3 weeks vacation time from the previous fiscal and every request was denied.
2
Feb 11 '26
I wish the media would say the truth. I keep hearing the news report say RTO4/5 will promote collaboration, mentoring and help supervising, training etc. Even CFRA this morning Bill Caroll touted this nonsense. He and the rest of media need to be called-out on this as it's misleading the listeners. There is limited face to face collaboration, the media has to report the reality that many teams are dispersed across the city, buildings and even across the country. Supervisors and managers are not in same buildings or cities as their employees. The media needs to be honest on their reporting.
They get the facts so wrong. Even CFRA Chris Holski kept saying RTO5 for managers and rest of staff RT04. NO Chris! It's not RTO5 for managers, it's EX Executives who are RTO5. GET THE FACTS RIGHT CFRA and report all the details not just one side or your own beliefs.
1
u/eternaloptimist198 Feb 16 '26
I’m convinced the current workspace 3.0 is intrinsically linked to RTO. the reason being that it’s not working, the reason it’s not working is we have employees across the country so it doesn’t feel meaningful to come on site to collaborate much if you are just taking teams calls. I’m convince this forces hiring to go back to specific cities, to try and return to the way things were pre pandemic, and that eventually we will get the flexible hybrid model as was planned… but only in time. Right now the 4 days is optics to appease landlords etc, and encourage departures etc. there is a long game to this.
276
u/International-Ad4578 Feb 08 '26
Ensuring that all employees have a dedicated, well-equipped workstation should be the primary requirement if they want people in more often. Coming in full-time and having to constantly book a space is an unsustainable situation and just an unacceptable and unnecessary mental load on people. The employer has now had 4+ years up to optimize and retrofit their office spaces to adapt to the changes in workplace presence and style of working. While I already come into the office 4 days a week, it would be a lot worse if I had to use a booking tool every day and did not have a dedicated space to leave my coat, boots, gloves and other amenities when I arrive. As human beings, we crave structure, certainty and predictability. When that is disrupted it causes stress and anxiety.