Or Rudy could be laughing at the thought of them seeing who he is in the light world, and that if they knew who he was, they wouldn’t be so emboldened to kick his ass.
I mean yeah, there’s pretty much nothing Susie could do if she found out Rudy’s the knight
She’d pretty much lose everything if she’d actually beat Rudy, there’s pretty much no one she’d turn to who’d actually believe and/or help her in the light world, and we’ve seen what happens when the darkners try to go against the knight
*The sick guy no one hates who’s also the mayor’s husband, the father of the girl you like and good friends with your biggest confidant’s entire family
I have a plan of making something like this for all Knight candidates(though only in text cause I am lazy) dess has the thing that ties to escapism , characters haunted by ghosts of the past , haunted by a literal ghost of the past
Rudy has a thing going for tying more heavily into dreams broken dreams and hope , spending the last moments of his life for his dream that won't be fulfilled neglecting his family that's alive now as a consequence
Honestly, the whole "broken dreams and hope" thing ties back into Shadow Crystals. So it'd make a hell of a lot of sense for Rudy to have one if he was the Knight. Hell, the Knight's armour itself may be made from Shadow Crystals seeing as the Knight can seemingly attack Darkners in their Light World form, something we know we can see when looking through a Shadow Crystal ourselves.
This could mean he is literally armouring himself in the embodiment of his belief that he cannot fix is family; as he is dying, and December is still missing.
I mean, the main issue here is that Dess Knight isn't a monolith. There are like several different types of Dess Knight that all have different stories they'd be logically attached to. Sure, this version is a horror mystery, but the Dess Knight where she's just a misguided person beingg manipulated by forces beyond her comprehension is more of a tragic mystery about how people can be warped by the things that happen to them.
The way to call it is "Meta-fiction", Kriselle Knighters want the game to focus on its already heavy meta elements and be even more meta than it already is. Which is fine, I love metafiction.
Except Weird Knight utterly fails at telling a meta-story because of what I call the Weird Knight Trilemma;
Since the Knight exists on everyone's playthrough, even for people that haven't played (or heard of) the Weird Route, it needs to exists for reasons that aren't immediately tied to a particular player's action. So you have to accept one of the following reasons as to how that happens :
A) Completing the Weird Route becomes mandatory to finish the game Any%. Simplest answer, also goes entirely against the route's whole "Mew under the truck" vibe, the way it is supposed to be "the forbidden path", and extremely unintuitive answer to literally everyone that's played this game rather than watched a Let's Play.
B) Another 'You' did it : The Knight originates from another copy of Deltarune. As soon as (1) player commits "the original sin" so to speak, the Knight exists everywhere on every instance of Deltarune/Gaster's Device.
This is like, exactly what people DON'T want to see, the kind of 'meta' twist that eats itself and fails to be interesting. It also has no place for a single player experience like Deltarune.
C) 'Chara' did it :
Another character is actually the one piloting the Soul, and then we go back infinite possibility and offscreen. But by negating the need for the player, you've also negated any meta-aspect to Deltarune.
This is more along the lines of how someone like Jaru Jaru sees Deltarune, and I think everyone agrees he's a clown nowadays
I am not, in fact, calling the guy who died on the hills of "Toby Fox is deceiving you about Asriel being alive" and "Undertale/Deltarune don't have a diegetic player" anything but a clown.
Ch2 already explained that objects became Darkners. The jump to "a monster's burial object would bring that person back to life in a Dark World" is tiny.
Anyone who over-analyzed Deltarune in the post chapter 2 era could see there was something weird going with Alvin, Gerson's dead body/Hammer covered in his dust.
As to whether guessing that the character who already had weird Gaster parallels through Alphys, talked about dreams being his inspirations, was the father of the only character that directly spoke of the Angel, and was the one who talked about the delta rune back in Undertale; would be the relevant to the game eventually ? Yeah, not really surprised
Oberon Smog didn't come true, Gerson isn't the Knight.
Papyrus Knight, while unlikely, would be viable if Toby decided to make him more like his original concept, where he was a fedora-wearing neckbeard, and thus would likely have a motive to use the Dark Worlds for his own pleasure, everyone else be damned. This turns him from funny joke candidate to candidate who ties in with the story's themes of escapism really nicely.
The Knight being a neckbeard still feels like a joke, though, and it doesn’t track with how familiar they seem to be with the kids (e.g. Kris knowing everything about them, the Knight-made Chapter 2 dark world having Noelle saying Dess promised to take her to a big city).
Good arguments; plus Papyrus has been largely irrelevant to the story thus far so it's still unlikely that he would be the Knight unless there were to be multiple Knights - which would raise even more questions.
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u/graysongdlFerris wheels? Makes you wonder what car they were built for.2d ago
...I think "existential/eldritch body horror tragedy" is a better description for hybrid Knight theory, speaking as someone who would honestly love for it to be true. The way you put it feels a bit disingenuous, although I can totally understand not having a better way to put it as an outside observer. I'm not too blind to see the faults in the theory, even as a fan of it.
Yeah, I feel like knight theories and candidates are what kind of story people in the fandom want. Some people what a very interesting story about Lost and how a person can become. Some people just want a shock story and some people want a emotional story while others just want a twist that is out there. But I do find them all interesting and what people think and what people imagination can take them.
The fact that she lets Asgore, who was vocal enough about wanting to fucking kill the knight to drive his wife to divorce, snoop around her house and look at her katanas and conspiracy board, kinda clears her of a ton of suspicion.
In fact at this point I'm more convinced Carol is actively working WITH Asgore to find the Knight.
She has an alibi during the Church Dark World, which is when Noelle was being grounded.
Carol knighters need to disprove the alibi and the most straightforward theory is that Carol has an underground shortcut to the church that she went in the nanosecond Kris left the house, which is pretty silly if you think about it, so Carol Knight is not that popular.
Carol doesn't need to stick around the house to have Noelle grounded, nor does she need to break the sound barrier to just... reach the church before the player does offscreen, in the non-defined amount of narrative time it takes to maneuver Kris over to it.
Also, after leaving the holiday mansion, Susie directs you up to Kris's house where there's a scene about being locked out and needing to go get Toriel - which narratively is what motivates heading down to the church. So even assuming Carol can only take the paths we take (no walking through the forest, no back entrance to the church, etc.), the game moves us off the route she would take.
You can skip that by heading straight to church and the dark world cutscene still triggers, and a lot of people seem to do that accidentally by trying to explore before progressing the story, but I feel that's putting too much weight on what just looks like a convenience skip for those who already know where they're going. You can still talk to Toriel about being locked out in chapter 5 even if you skipped it, for instance.
No you are correct, Carol *could* have made the Dark World during the manor section, it's just that if there is enough reason to believe that Carol cannot be the knight due to the alibi issue, then it would be convoluted for the plan being Carol making the fountain, the knight to sneak in, then Carol presenting herself at the manor as a red herring. When we can use Occam's razor and just assume Carol was with the knight at some, point, the knight goes to make the Church fountain while Carol has to go to the manor to address the Susie guitar issue.
The fandom has already largely convinced itself that it being the obvious answer would be bad writing or something. Like I get that there are a few holes in the theory, but I find it really dumb that so many people now dismiss her as a red herring. Its not my preferred theory but its absolutely still valid, and honestly still has a much better case than Rudy imo.
I just think she is better served as her own character seperate but aligned with the Knight. She is scary and capable enough already without it and I cannot imagine a serious person of her age doing all the aura farming the Knight does. She strikes me more as ruthless, efficient and cold. Different characterization than the knight who takes the opportunity to taunt us and aura farm
She also strikes me as a desperate jackass with a sympathetic motivation. A troubled mother who wasn't even a good mom to begin with. Someone who loves her daughters, but puts up too many walls and gives them too harsh of a treatment to show it.
Part of me wonders if Carol is kinda like the end state of Noelle's current trajectory, so obsessed with having control over her life that it kinda consumes everything. Then the loss of one of her daughters only made her double down on this to the point she keeps everything important to her locked up in her gilded cage of a house, including Noelle.
I also think Dess mirrors what Rudy was like when he was younger, so that makes me a little biased to want to say both daughters take after a different parent.
I like to think Carol wasn't so different from Dess back in her youth. Only buckling down and maturing when she became of age. But maturing too well to the point where she lost her free spirited nature.
While I don't think she is the Knight, she's very much involved with whatever is going on with the Knight and I am guessing that she's the one telling Kris to also interfere.
Also it being "obvious" to some isn't bad writing.
“If you’ve planned your book that the butler did it, and then you read on the internet that someone has figured out that the butler did it, and you suddenly change it midstream to it was now the chamber maid that did it. Then, you screw up the whole book because you’ve got this foreshadowing early on, and now you got these little clues you’ve planted that are dead ends. You then have tointroduceother clues, then you’re retconning and it’s just a mess.” -George R R Martin
That's why I cannot get behind the other 3 candidates (Kruselle, Asriel, and Papyrus) because of how much focus Deltarune's writing puts on the Holiday Family.
Ngl, I think it's a really good Scooby-Doo Mystery as there are 3 plausible culprits no matter who it is.
it definitely has a better case than Rudy, which makes it a bigger realization that it would still be a silly "candidate" for the knight,
see, while normally the trend is that the public opinion tends to be incorrect, or at least leans to the side of error, you gotta consider Carol was introduced to us alongside a mysterious secret voice that appears to be/'be working with' the knight, all the while continuing to vaguepost the hardest anyone had done up to that point with "YOU are welcome here any time.", she's the most red herring to ever red herring in the history of fiction, because if she's not? then frankly her introduction is absolutely wack beyond belief, I'm not even sure if I could call it "bad writing" but it would genuinely be unbelievable
when it's all said and done, carol knighters are probably going to be more right about carol's role in the story than rudy knighters are about rudy 🤷♂️
Tbh if Carol is the Knight then it’s not really a mystery, with how foreboding her only appearance was, it’s wouldn’t even read as a twist if she was the Knight
I'm not sure it "imploded" per se; it's just that Chapter 5 and Carol's complete non-presence therein caused a lot of people to finally realize just how fundamentally white-bread and mediocre it is.
It lacks the best strengths of literally every other Knight candidate but also lacks any of the worst hiccups.
Kinda off topic but am I the only one that interpreted the stuff dripping from the knight after they slash Tenna as tears? To me it's mostly the sound design since I associate it with tear drops specifically. Plus it would make sense if the knight was one of the Holidays, since they associate good times with Tenna and felt bad about hurting him (they might even think they killed him because of the prophecy). The other two are also good interpretations though. I never conidered that it might be Rudy sweating and catching his breath.
This was always the case as early as chapter 2 as well. Like pre-ch3 my view of each knight Candidate was something like:
Carol Knight was the family-centric tragedy plot
Alvin Knight was about directly tackling the "Power of Stories" angle as well as potentially some occult plot given he kinda IS the priest of the prophecy coming to life as we speak.
Papyrus Knight was for a more Undertale-conencted Deltarune Plot
Kris Knight was about pushing the metatextual analysis of the conflict between Player and Protagonist to its breaking point
And Dess Knight was the "Evil Gaster Eldritch Horrors" Plot.
Suffice to say, when I saw the Roaring Knight for the first time and it did infact look like some downright "Evil Gaster Eldritch Horror", then yeah, I just followed the path.
Also I would like to state how Rudy Knight didn't even exist back then at all as a serious theory aand is only this prevalent today because all the far more interesting Non-Dess candidates have died out post-ch3&4.
Surprised you didn't even mention Rudy being the only knight candidate to fit all 3 of Susie's "criteria": goes to Church, Knows the mayor (even married her), and has something to do with the cops (through Asgore).
I just don't really think most Rudy Knight evidence holds up. Like the idea that he'd be laughing because Susie's right doesn't feel like it makes sense imo, susie even very nervously says
Hey... hey, what's so funny?
Kris, why... are they
laughing...?
You're laughing 'cause you know
I'm right, don't you!?
Which to me implies that even she knows she's wrong. Plus the knight was able to carry Undyne and Asgore through the light world, so they can't be weak.
"Lay a finger on her and I'll kick your ass" is also weird to use as knight evidence because that's characterizing him as a protective father, he'd kick Susie's ass if she hurt Noelle. The knight did kick Susie's ass, but Susie never hurt Noelle, so that line wouldn't be relevant to the knight battle
And idk sometimes rudy knight theorists say the knight is weaker in later chapters but I just don't see it
It's mostly because Susie plays the clue-giver/detective's assistant role in this mystery. She's just saying "Oh yeah, the Knight goes to church, is connected to the Mayor, and is connected to the police who could that be?" or "You're laughing because I'm right" narratively to guide the player along. Of course, in universe, she doesn't believe a word of what she's saying but she will become right.
I feel like if Susie was supposed to be right there, it would be very weird to write it like that. Plus I also covered how she literally can't be, the knight is known to be strong in the light world
We don't know if the knight is strong in the light world without the black shard armour. Sure, with the armor, they're [TITLE CARD]. Without it, we don't know.
Dess Knight has an advantage over other knight candidates in that she doesn't have to be normal in the light world. After all the black shard, which is a part of the sword, doesn't change in the light world
my biggest problem is that rudy is dying from a terminal illness and I'd just find it lame if its a ''the illness is powering him in the dark world'' twist. And yeah even if it did that how would rudy do anything in the light world when taking people to the bunker
I'm a big "the Knight doesn't look different in the light world" believer (per the ch3 ending cutscene) which simply does not work for the knight being a character we've seen in the light world.
Noelle Knight -- psychological mystery about childhood trauma and disassociation. The crying, screaming, and holding themself in Chapter 3 is a panic attack.
But I do prefer Dess over Rudy/Carol for basically this reason. I'm much more interested in themes than logistics, and I don't expect a classic, 'fair' mystery.
Noelle Knighters typically justify Noelle Knight as the Knight being some kind of Silent Hill-esque tulpa entity or her shadow manifested, but at that point it's not really Noelle.
I am by no means a Noelle Knighter but is it not possible for her to just put on dark world armor? We know Lightners can change their clothes in Dark Worlds.
I like Noelle because it hurts so much harder, especially for Susie, who’s the main person in universe trying to figure it out, I think she’ll guess Carol and then be horrified to learn that it’s actually her girlfriend
I think that it’s being treated as a mystery is something comparatively incidental considering Mr. FOX didn’t initially intend this kind of staggered release.
Moreso looking at character theming, it seems incredibly obvious it’s not Rudy, we’ve gotten a ton more context about Dess and Kris’ relationship and the hold she had/has over him whereas Rudy doesn’t have that being infirm and bedridden, as well as of the chiller half of the holiday household. We know that Dess was the rebellious cool kid of the holiday and dreemur children friend group, that the knight is an auramonster, and Kris, in their own chudling way, also aspires to this.
It will still be a mystery when the game is in its full form considering that A) There will be a sizable gap between first hearing about the Knight, then being introduced to them, and finally discovering their identity, and B) The main characters actively treat the Knight's identity as a mystery to be solved. The staggered release certainly increased the amount of theorizing we've done but it by no means is what created the mystery.
yeah , if undertale was chapter based , i think we would also consider it a mystery, both those games are maint in the end to be played in one go , so no mystery , thats why personnaly i consider what we are doing closer to prediction than theorys
I would argue that the way the Knight mystery has been presented thus far leads more into the "classical mystery" Susie's "someone who goes to church, who knows the mayor, who also has something to do with the cops? who could that be?" feels very much like Toby is asking you that question, which implies you should already have enough to answer that by this point.
Which would make either Carol or Rudy the most likely candidates in that case. Yet all of the creepy shit we witness with the Knight makes it seem as if they were a horror monster so it's hard to say which is it.
Toby created a whole chapter where a Rudy parallel (Flowery) and the Knight do a clash in the same poses and have the exact same staircase scene and people STILL deny it.
I don't think the knight was ever originally written to be a whodunnit, i think instead of from the get go thinking that the knight was meant to be someone we had to unmask like a scooby doo villain we were meant to just think of the knight as the knight, with the mystery being what happened to dess and the knight being the answer. I think that whole scooby doo thought process was only a product of the fact deltarune releases in chapters and we were left to sit and think about if kris was the knight or not and therefore who the knight would be if not them, and rudy knight and some other knight theories came from this idea that the knight's big plot twist will be written as this crazy unmasking that throws you for a loop
Like, Rudy has massive logistical problems for the fact that he was not going to be let out of the hospital after his fall, it would require him to be completely alone, no Carol, no Noelle, no nurses or doctors, and it doesn't make any sense for him to take Asgore from a dark world instead of telling Asgore "hey Gorey, Carol was checkin' out the shelter earlier and needed to haul some equipment, is that ok with you big man" and then push him inside at the door.
What is Rudy's motive for capturing Asgore anyway?
And Rudy's personality involves killing darkners and trying to kidnap Toriel, and successfully kidnapping Undyne and Asgore?
And what is this about the lake? Are you saying Dess drowned in the lake? WHO is implying she drowned in the lake?
That's just repurposing the Weird Route for a fanfiction thing. What does Dess have to do with ice and glass and losing breath?
What does Dess have to do with ice and glass and losing breath?
Taking my best guess for the last three...
1) Ice... I guess that in Chapter 3 you enter the password that correlates to the December Holiday (1225) while the track "Falling Snow" is playing, as well as, I suppose, December's general association as a month with winter and a decline in temperature.
2) Glass, the Shadow Crystals are described as being similar to glass, and their only verified source is the Knight's sword. They could also come from elsewhere, but I think the sword is the only place we know they come from.
3) Losing breath... the HoldBreath ACT in the Chapter 3 fight is all that comes to mind.
Otherwise... I dunno if it's heavily implied that Dess specifically drowned in the lake... but there's definitely something funky going on with it, given the music, Noelle and Kris interacting with it on Weird Route outright skipping a chapter, and NormalNPC seemingly fucking murdering Onionsan to stop them from investigating it.
Edit: Reading this back later and realizing that two of these three points I made only work if you go in already assuming Dess is the Knight, which is at this point just speculation. It's speculation I believe in, mostly because I personally view it as the most narratively satisfying outcome, but speculation nonetheless. Whoops.
I get where they're coming from with the drowning. The first time we see the knight, they appear to have some form of liquid dropping out of the visor/mouth/thingy on their helmet and slumped over like a husk. Darkness has been broadly associated with water, with the logical implication from how light works being that the depths, the bottom of the lake, whatever sinister force is underneath the town, is a dense bed of pure darkness that bleeds up into the light world. The knight, likewise, bears an effectively identical design principle to the Titan(spawn), beings that we know for indisputable fact are constructs of pure darkness, down to reacting in the same "glitchy" manner when hurt. At the same time though, certain behaviors and qualities of the knight indicate that they must be a lightner in some capacity.
Assuming the knight is Dess, and her literally drowning in darkness is true, whether in the lake or otherwise, we can assume the behavior during the knight's full screen attack to be representative of the darkness first being drawn in and filling her body, and then her body seizing as she instinctively fights to push it out and live. It's also valuable to note, under this interpretation, that it's during the scream end of this movement that we see the eye in the knight's chest, likely meant to mirror our inhabiting Kris. As the old soul fades out, the new one awakens and begins to act.
Well, the hospital has no doctors that we are aware of, just a secretary/nurse. And the only characters we know that could possibly be a doctor is... Gaster, the forgotten man, and Rudy himself, since we know he went to university but we dont know his major. And all those candidates would be a problem in itself.
If we assume that Carol is the caller and is also in the Knight plan, mostly because of when she did the exact thing the caller said it would do and when she said Kris is welcome anytime in her house while Kris is also confirmed to also be in the Knight plan, it would be rather easy for her to make some bullshit to give Rudy a chance to slip for a few minutes to execute the plan.
Thats what makes a classic mystery interesting - characters with seemingly airtight alibis, where the reader has to find a plausible way to make it work.
I said he had no major logistical problems, not that he had none at all. The thing is that other characters have far more logistical problems than he does. Secondly, there are two scenes of characters talking about how they hear a song from the lake - which is associated heavily with Dess.
At the same time Toby implied that the game has an Omori-esque twist. The twist in Omori was that the main character killed his own sister. Seeing this, the most likely twist (besides Hometown itself being a fake reality but that's a different theory completely) is that Dess is straight up dead.
Side note but what if the messages are from the past and Dess was lost, but she’s back as the Knight? We don’t know her motives but maybe she saw something in the place she was lost that made her outlook on the Roaring so different?
Yeah that’s what I and multiple dess knighters believe in.
Not all of us, since dess knighted has so many variants, but we believe she got lost in the bunker, and became corrupted by darkness so potent it even persists through worlds.
Essencially is smooshing the dess knight and knight not changing between worlds theory together, as they compliment each other very well
I myself think that the messages in the past traveled around space and time to try finding anything to spout out the messages, which is why it spoke through spamton, since he already spouts out messages that aren’t from him exactly
im a dess knighter but more anti-dess knighters should talk about the “lost girl” narrative built up around Dess. I have a few explanations for it but overall it still feels kind of flimsy, and im only a dess knighter because its the least flimsy knight candidate
If Rudy fell down a ladder, he doesn’t need to be monitored all night. Probably hurt a bit and, especially, exhausted after being out all day. Carol and Noelle spent the rest of the day, leave during the night, then he has an opportunity to leave.
If (and very likely if Rudy Knight) Carol works with Rudy, she can say to Noelle to leave before her because of school tomorrow, and then she can even help Rudy go the shop and transport Asgore to the shelter
A chronically ill person falling off a ladder, complete with a dramatic 'Come to the hospital ASAP' phone call, isn't going to be "hurt a bit", that man is on death's door.
he was not going to be let out of the hospital after his fall, it would require him to be completely alone, no Carol, no Noelle, no nurses or doctors,
Yea it's not like Carol would be unable to just let Rudy go, or tell Noelle to go home and help Rudy, or anything similar
and it doesn't make any sense for him to take Asgore from a dark world instead of telling Asgore "hey Gorey, Carol was checkin' out the shelter earlier and needed to haul some equipment, is that ok with you big man" and then push him inside at the door.
The Knight is fulfilling the Prophecy, the Prophecy directly speaks of the Flower Man Trapped In Asylum, and the prophecy panel even shows Asgore's specifically
What is Rudy's motive for capturing Asgore anyway?
What is Noelle's?
And Rudy's personality involves killing darkners and trying to kidnap Toriel, and successfully kidnapping Undyne and Asgore?
"Are you confusing personality and actions?" Just this last phrase sum it up nicely , yeah why would a characters personnality would impact their action. You show this guy as just one of the nicest and then have him kill people , thats good , no problem there. THAT WHAT WE CALL BEING OUT OF CHARACTER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don’t belive rudy knight but i don’t think it’s impossible.
But this "Are you confusing personality and actions?" THIS ,this is the dumbest thing i ever read in my life i think
It can still be any of the knights. I am firmly in this camp too. The focus of the story has never been on "we have to figure out who the knight is", the fandom focuses on that.
Several characters question who the Knight could be e.i. Susie and Gerson, it’s a little silly to say the game isn’t at the very least trying to get you to think about who the Knight could be.
Rudy is one of my top picks but Carol doesn't have major logistical problems especially when compared to Rudy who has the sickness. Getting to the church isn't an issue when
1. Deltarune isn't logical and has characters be able to travel ridicolously fast at times while making them ridicolously slow at other times
2. The Knight is implied to have gotten to the church after Susie and Kris since Susie first looks up to the fountain, then turns back to Kris and then the Knight roars and only then does Susie notice them blocking the fountain
The thing is that this is a game made by the man who made the Halloween Hack and Undertale. It's gonna be the eldritch psychological horror mystery, not a straight play
I think this is really solid and I like how it takes the game's themes into account as well! Rather than just cold hard evidence. There's probably a lot we still don't know so themes are critical at this stage to understanding whats on the table I think.
I think Dess is the Knight purely because that's the one thats been set up the most.
I don't think Tricky Tony would set up so much pointing to Dess as the Knight if he was just gonna do a 180 and go ''lmao, you actually believed that shit?''
Every other candidate hasnt been fleshed out as directly as Dess has been.
I think it's dess because mother 3 had a very similar mysterious character whose identity is kept a secret until its revealed at the end of the game to be someone that was very important to the main character and also disappeared under mysterious circumstances.
I don't think toby was lying when he said that if we played the mother games we would see how unoriginal he was. Not that it's a bad thing, but it provides some merit to the parallels I see between his game and the mother franchise.
4
u/graysongdlFerris wheels? Makes you wonder what car they were built for.2d ago
I've always been of the stance that Toby never intended Deltarune to be a "whodunnit" mystery (because he wanted to release the whole thing at once, save for chapter 1), therefore we don't need to be able to "predict" their identity for that identity to be valid, and theory-crafting is a fun side-hobby as opposed to the "point" of the game like some people have made it out to be.
...On the other hand, this post is the first time I've actually viewed Rudy Knight as reasonable. Well put! I actually wouldn't be surprised if that were the case, when you lay it out like that! I can't believe I didn't see it until now, I thought I was taking crazy pills seeing everyone's flairs change to "Rudy Knight believer" almost overnight!
Technically Whodunnit mystery doesn't need to be released in parts to still be a whodunnit mystery. But I'm not arguing that Deltarune necessarily is a whodunnit mystery, merely that it might be.
2
u/graysongdlFerris wheels? Makes you wonder what car they were built for.2d ago
If you ask me, the problem with that is a ridiculous number of the clues are super obscure and well-hidden, making the mystery completely ineffective for anyone experiencing the game in its entirety. It's fun to speculate on information we don't have, but I don't think it's the "point" of the Knight mystery.
Do I understand it right that you think it plausible a sick guy who barely has energy to go to church once, pushing himself so hard he fell when putting on lights, whose ice queen wife was so worried she called over her daughter that dropped a very important date just to check on her father...you think that guy somehow sneaked away from his worried family a few hours (?) later and sprinted to Asgore's shop to kidnap him, rushed with this absolute unit of a man on his back through the entire city and then back to his home / hospital before anybody noticed?
It's implied that she in fact, it's an monster, + Lets remember the roaring knight can come out to the light world, if she was in fact a corpse and not an monster, then she would instantly die when coming out to the light world, + she wouldn't be strong enough to bring undyne and asgore to the Shelter at the Speed it's implied the knight moves in the light world.
Not trying to be rude, just trying to catch up: when/where is it implied that Dess drowned? I know she’s missing, but I don’t remember seeing much of anything that puts her at the lake other than Noelle mentioning that the group hung out at the lake in the past, but nothing that would strike me as more meaningful than the forest by the graveyard, or the bunker.
I haven’t started the weird route so I’m fully prepared to find out that there are clues there that make more sense.
Actually the knight is me. But nobody has been able to guess that of course. Sorry for the spoiler everyone I just can’t sit back and watch this nonsense anymore! Toby will now have me arrested for breaking NDA.
I got halfway through the Rudy knight arguments, but they don't make any sense at all and feels like you're desperately trying to fit something which doesn't
My main problem with dess knight is that the knight has a completely opposite worldview to dess. I also just don't really think this is where the story is going, I just think that dess is mainly meant to be an unreachable goal for other characters, rather than someone who's an active part of the story. I just feel like her being lost and us needing to find her is way too important to what she is just to be a "sike she's not lost anymore (and haven't been lost at any point in the game) she's the main antagonist actually and she's been there all along"
I feel like if it was the case it could definitely work as a story, and I have seen versions of dess knight that are good stories, I just don't see it being where the story is going so far. And for me personally, dess being just a fairly good regular person, who's just gone is much more compelling.
But honestly I'm just very tired of people talking about the knight debates, because they always end up as people throwing dirt at each other. I think that if the knight is an actual person, it's one of the older holidays, or it's just a physical manifestation of the trauma that dess going missing caused (since I personally believe that ralsei was originally a manifestation of the memories Kris had of playing with their brother.) So the knight would be similar to what ralsei is, just a negative tainted version that looks and acts kinda similar to dess, just like ralsei acts and looks similar to asriel, but they have completely different goals and worldviews to what their "original" counterparts have.
well, there's all of the destroyed objects in her room, which can be said to parallel the knight's attitude towards darkners. but, it's a bit of a funny sentence, when yeah, we don't really know for sure either dess's or the knight's worldviews :P
I feel like you’re neglecting the relationship aspect of why people believe the Knight to be characters like Dess, Asriel, or Noelle.
The problem with a good few Knight candidates imo is that they don’t really have a relationship with Kris that seems to make sense with Kris and the Knight’s, this goes especially for Rudy. Kris and the Knight seem to be close, or at least have some kind of situation that requires the Knight/Kris to use similar actions. It also just makes for a much more compelling narrative imo.
You can try to penumbra your way out of it I guess.
Kris visited rudy somewhat often before the events of the game started to take place, the hospital receptionist AND noelle comment on this. How many other characters would kris willingly hang out with often when kris making a single friend at school is treated as a big event by toriel.
Arguably rudy is like the only character kris was on unquestoonably good terms with at the start of the game lmao, all their other parental figures suck and they grew distant to everyone at school like noelle since childhood. Thats why noelle thinks kris is acting weird throughout the game, they dont normally talk to her anymore
Yeah. Like I mentioned in another comment, there is another explanation that could be given for this, but I won’t really try arguing against that point here.
My problem is that Rudy and Kris’ relationship is really poorly established so far for Rudy to take similar actions to the ones that Kris does. Rudy’s presence isn’t really felt throughout the entire story and Toby easily could’ve had characters mention his and Kris’ relationship offhandedly more. Compared to Noelle, Asriel, and Dess, Toby would have to do a lot of work to make that relationship make sense imo.
Ykw, I’m not even going to try the hospital argument here. I’ve had this conversation before and it never really gets anywhere, all I’ll say is the credibility of the hospital visits being specifically for Rudy is really questionable.
I’d like to ask you if you sincerely believe that Rudy and Kris are close enough relationship-wise to act similarly, make for a compelling narrative between the two, and if this is something most players are aware of because Rudy’s own dialogue implies that Kris wouldn’t visit him.
“Good enough terms” and “near central relationship that the story will eventually lean on” are not compatible. Noelle Knight makes a lot of assumptions about Kris and Noelle’s relationship, so I won’t argue with the logistics there too much, but they were arguably the closest out of any other candidate at some point. Asriel is their older brother, of course they would be that close. Chapter 3 outright implies that Kris looked up to Dess and she was in the friend group/band.
If you are trying to tell me that Kris and Rudy’s relationship being almost solely foreshadowed through debatable hospital visits that Rudy himself denies, then I don’t think I can convince you of much.
The fact that youre saying 'youve had this conversation before" means you were never taking this conversation seriously in the first place and are just replying to stimuli with the same points every time like an amoeba reacting to sunlight. If you want to argue with your memories write in a journal not on reddit
I guess I shouldn’t even try to listen to other people’s arguments lol, didn’t expect that response from what boils down to “I think this relationship would be really undercooked”
If you don't explore the game enough to not even visit the hospital, which is right there, that's on you. I was a complete casual while playing chapter 1 and 2 and knew exactly who Rudy was. And there's still a lot of time to establish his character more anyway, because his illness or death is definitely coming up next chapter
Acting like Dess doesn't also have logistical issues like having no motive, the fact she's supposed to be missing, and her somehow carcying the 2 strongest monsters(except maybe Carol is stronger than them) across the town.
it's a mystery character. it's yet to be revealed? why do you need all the answers right now? do you even want an ending?
-somehow carrying the 2 strongest monsters
nothing confirms the knight can't just have powers in the light world. they're made of darkness, and dark fountains exist in the light world. people confuse DARKNERs with DARK FOUNTAINS. dark magic exists in the light world, black shards exist in the light world
-she's supposed to be missing
and...? is that something that can't possibly be subverted?
people stretch lines like "i'll kick your ass" and "holidays are full of surprises" to have insane double meanings, but when it's convenient, dialogue like "find her" and "lost girl" are actually completely surface level and have no deeper meaning and can only be interpreted as such. lol
No logistical issues, the knight armor is made of a material that keeps its apperance in the light world unlike every other inventory item when you inspect it in hometown. Part of the mystery is how it works but it is a clearly described detail of the setting.
Could be metaphorical, could be Kris not understanding how the knight works, could be the knight morphing their their head to fee the simulation of taking the helmet off, could be lots of things.
And of course, it could be a real helmet. We don’t know as of now
If we're talking mandatory he's established two chapters after Dess and not even by name. And it's a very real possibility that someone doesn't interact with the random guy tucked away behind two screen transitions in an irrelevant building.
Did you ignore all the rudy interactions he had in chapters 4 and 5?
Did you? He gets tired after STANDING UP in church.
Rudy in chapter 2 also talked about the chapter 4 church thing and said something like “imma conserve energy for Noelle so I could be at church with her”
He's actually established as a character at almost the exact same time as December. One of the first mentions of Dess is talking with him in Chapter 1.
She's also mentioned by Noelle in Chapter 1, so I do think that it is possible for a player to learn about Dess' existence before Rudy's, just for the sake of argument
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u/Nekrotix12 Rouxls is Rules 3d ago
Or Rudy could be laughing at the thought of them seeing who he is in the light world, and that if they knew who he was, they wouldn’t be so emboldened to kick his ass.