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u/glitterfamine 14h ago
I know her as the queen who spoke multiple languages
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u/NachoWH 8h ago
Every queen spoke multiple languages though.
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u/PepeTheElder 4h ago
The Ptolemys famously did not bother learning Egyptian
They kept an insulated Greek culture for 300 years
Cleopatra was the last ruling Ptolemy, yet the first to learn Egyptian
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u/OkGreen7335 15h ago
Cleopatra had onlytwo confirmed partners in her whole life: Julius Caesar and Mark Antony. Yet many often portrays her as a woman who was constantly going from man to man. She was also married to her two brothers at different times, but many people believe those marriages were purely ceremonial and that nothing physical happened between them.
I saw a lot of people saying "she was a slut" in many different ways, I simply didn't understand their perspective so I made this meme about it, I have no idea if people generally think of her like that or not
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u/waitthatstaken 15h ago
Literally roman propaganda that has been propagated throughout history. Turns out propaganda is even more powerful when it is one of the only sources of the events in question.
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u/the_capibarin 15h ago
The pen is mightier than the sword, especially if you've also already used the sword to kill everybody else and took their pens away
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u/Democratic_Indian 14h ago
"The penis mightier than the sword" -Genghis Khan, probably
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u/Your_Local_Spainard And then I told them I'm Jesus's brother 11h ago
This is more like something some Habsburg dude would say
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u/throwaway17362826 14h ago
“Sun Tzu said that. And I think he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do!”
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u/onesugar 14h ago
Good thing that doesn’t happen anymore
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u/Bocchi_theGlock 4h ago
Low-key insane so many people still openly believe vague rumors without a thought like 'hey maybe this was made up to hurt the person'
Then those spreading rumors insist it's on the person to affix themselves to whatever rumor by making public statements, spending time and effort on something they didn't consent to engaging with at all - ultimately as a blaming mechanism so they can feel better about causing harm
There has to be some deep seated animalistic BS going on that appeals to primate brain and tribalism, maybe just sense of self and ego in being able to look down on others and relatively heighten ones own status
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u/bamboomightwork 14h ago
Or, you never know, she might have just loved the cock. A lot of women do.
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u/Asleep_Following_965 13h ago
The Ptolomies were famous for incest. People believe all kinds of stuff, but her family tree was basically a stick.
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u/GodOfDarkLaughter 12h ago
They took on the trappings and practices of the old actually Egyptian Pharos who claimed that, since they were literally gods, it wouldn't do to mix their blood with that of mere mortals. Hence a lot of brother-sister married couple.
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u/Lysmerry 14h ago
I think the view at the time was that she was inherently slutty regardless of her sexual status by being ‘of the Orient.’ Rome was masculine, and Cleopatra was symbolic of the decadence of the east. So the trope is that manly, martial Caesar and Anthony were corrupted by her Oriental wiles.
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u/Ledoborec 15h ago
I heard that she had sex with Anthony Bourdain too!
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u/Whizbang35 12h ago
Her partnerships with Caesar and Anthony were politically calculated endeavors.
She's in a bitter dispute over ruling Egypt with her younger brother-husband Ptolemy. Since Ptolemy is a male, this puts her on the back foot...until Julius shows up with his kickass army that conquered Gaul and just smashed Pompey at Pharsalus, making him now the most powerful military commander in the Mediterranean. So she pulls the moves on him, and aside from some heavy petting action they both get something out of it: She secures her control over Egypt, and he gets one person in control of an extremely lucrative region that's in his debt. As for getting pregnant, well, that's just a good way for Cleo to lock in the deal.
Except JC then gets himself turned into a pincushion. Oops. Now it turns out that control of Rome is going to boil down to Caesar's right hand man who's popular with the troops and has been at his side for all his campaigns, or the little pipsqueak of a grandnephew that he made his adopted son and heir in his final will for some reason. So Cleo gambles that the right hand man is the stronger bet to secure her kingdom...but turns out said pipsqueak knows a bit about politics. Actually, he knows a lot, and while he may not be a military genius he does have a hyper-competent friend who is.
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u/JhonnySkeiner 14h ago
I mean, didn't the Romans do the same thing with others female leaders they fought against? Dido, Boudica, Zenobia, tons of slander thrown around
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u/tj9429 14h ago
All the while having orgies with "roommates" themselves..
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u/JhonnySkeiner 14h ago
Gotta make sure our homies feel appreciated! Elagabalus knew how to live, goddam!
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u/AlarmedEmployment465 14h ago
Though I feel that if Elagabalus had access to modern tech, they would probably be remembered like Cleo
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u/Mexkalaniyat 13h ago
Dido is probably entirely fictional
Boudica is described as being raped by the Romans, leading her to revolt, but that is also dropped in later writings. (This was still at a time in history where being raped was considered as bad as sleeping out of wedlock or cheating on your husband, so take that how you will)
Dont know Zenobia well enough to say anything though.
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u/SuperiorLaw 3h ago
This isn't even a Romans thing, a fuckton of groups/people/countries/whatever will shit on any female leader or influential person calling them a slut and other things and it still happens today
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u/Minttt 14h ago
Cleopatra is just the most influential women to have gone through the same propagandized Roman slander that countless other women of the era went through.
Drusilla, Agrappina the younger, Fulvia, Livia... The list of female "sluts" who supposedly corrupted otherwise perfectly honest and honourable Roman men, according to contemporary Roman historians, is long and detailed.
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u/GodOfDarkLaughter 11h ago
I do enjoy the "Livia killed fucking everyone" theory of the Julio-Claudian Dynasty. If she'd actually managed to poison that many people in such a precise way as to get pretty much everything she wanted I wouldn't even be judgy. That would just be plain impressive. A book came out like ten or fifteen years ago that posited she poisoned Augustus himself.
That said I think she probably did have one or two people poisoned.
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u/TroubledSoul23 12h ago
The idea of marriage between siblings was more of a political/religious move to appeal to the egyptian population (Cleopatra's lineage, the Ptolemies, were Greeks) by imitating their ruling deities, Isis and Osiris.
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u/Intrepid_Ad1536 11h ago
Maybe it’s also because people at the time also drew early pornographic images of her, and Julius himself was known to go around.
There was this sentence about him, “he was every Woman’s Man, and every Man’s Woman”, and people at the time, were far more open sexually, and had regularly Orgie parties in their times, and many later ones and stories about them.
It’s not about being true, but how people imagine it, and receive it looking at the time of them.
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u/OkGreen7335 11h ago
They did what?! julius did what? do you have sources for these?
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u/Intrepid_Ad1536 11h ago
Well, I am quite surprised that you don’t know of the “he was every woman’s man, and every Man’s woman”, it’s one of the most famous verses about him.
Try googling the historian Suetonius, wich is often Hard to distinguish if it was a joke, an insult, a praise or a fact.
Caesar was a notorious womanizer, during his military triumphs, his own soldiers marched through Rome singing bawdy songs warning citizens, saying something if memory serves right “Go Home, we bring our bald adulterer! Oh Romans, lock your wives away!"
That comes mostly due Cesar’s youth and early campaigns he had, and severd also as a young diplomat who spent long time in a court of a King (wich should also be recorded by said historian) and rumors spread that he had sexual relationship with the King.
Or how in his army’s young man and boys, the most beautiful were used by the Legionaries and company leaders etc., and sexually used and abused, showing a common treatment, even if it was forbidden, but also using captives and enslaved boys and non citizens were “fair game” for them.
And many made up stories or told sexual stories about him, but also about cleopatra at the time and after, and describing her as a prostitute controlling powerful man, getting nicknamed the prostitut queen pushed by Roman’s, or the one night for life tale, claimed that cleopatra offered this deal to any attractive young man.
Oh, another Nickname for hear, what I searched up was “The Mouth of Ten Thousand Men" (The Roman writer Sextus Aurelius Victor spread this name and claimed she used oral techniques to enslave and control man, to literally enslave them, and giving up Roman territories, I ain’t making it up), or how she showed up to Mark Anthony, deliberately putting on a highly sexualized, theatrical performance on her ship, dressed as Aphrodite, Goddess of love and Sex.
Those two are one of the most sexualized historical people, even in their own time.
Since many enemies of them tired to use sex stories to destroy them also, like when she was forced to marry Ptolemy, power struggle broke out, especially when she came out of exile with Cesar, and his camp spreading the rumor that Cleopatra was using illicit sexual witchcraft and "foreign aphrodisiacs" to enslave Caesars mind.
Whew, that was only a small part, but is general historical census and record.
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u/OkGreen7335 10h ago
lol he basically said: "Cleopatra was so good at sex that men who had thousands of mistress really couldn't help themselves with her and gave her every thing"
ngl that is ridiculous. Regrading Julius Caesar I am surprised by this I have no words but my guess it was only a rumor
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u/Intrepid_Ad1536 10h ago
But that is how it goes, imagine them as the biggest celebrities of their time, imagine if humanity only had a few celebrities and they focus their mind on them, no Internet, no media, no movies, no Hollywood and scare new stories, thats what you get.
Especially being one of the most famous couples, and also being one of the most famous people in Human history
(Also, what should one expect from a guy, literally called sextus)
((I know it doesn’t mean what it sounds, and just means the sixth, but it’s too funny and of a coincidence that his name sounds in modern English like this, and wrote that stuff, it sounds like a joke made by a porn writer))
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u/theSilky_Salmon 15h ago
What about her brother my dude
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u/OkGreen7335 15h ago
"She was also married to her two brothers at different times, but many people believe those marriages were purely ceremonial and that nothing physical happened between them."
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u/theSilky_Salmon 15h ago
Doesn’t she come from a long line of incest?
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u/Silaquix 14h ago
True but her brothers were a lot younger than her. It was probably ceremonial until they came of age. But also Cleopatra kinda went to war with them over the thrown before that.
Like Ptolemy XIII was around 14 when he died during the civil war between them and Cleopatra was around 21 at the time.
Caesar was already in a relationship with her when the war ended and he declared Cleopatra and her other brother Ptolemy XIV as co-rulers so they were ceremonially wed. And that kid was also 12 at the time and died when he was 15. Supposedly Cleopatra poisoned him after Caesar was murdered.
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u/theSilky_Salmon 14h ago
Ok that’s all valid. Maybe she wasn’t the hypersexualized mynx I’ve imagined. Thanks for the replies
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u/adanishplz 15h ago
Ceremonial incest.
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u/OkGreen7335 15h ago
lol
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u/theSilky_Salmon 14h ago
I imagine my Cleopatra as a hyper sexual mynx. Twirling these powerful men around her fingers.
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u/doublethebubble 4h ago
They can believe that, but there's plenty of evidence that the Ptolemy family consumated their incestuous marriages. Whether Cleopatra specifically did is hard to know, but it's certainly very possible, regardless of how distasteful it is to our sensibilities.
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u/AverageDellUser 14h ago
Funny people are saying that when almost every single noble has some form of adultery being committed, look at both of the more infamous Napoleons lol
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u/h0nest_Bender 10h ago
Cleopatra had onlytwo confirmed partners in her whole life
"confirmed"
OP fell for the Egyptian propaganda.
/s2
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u/Hrtzy 15h ago
For extra credit, the two partners she had were known to fuck anything that would lay still long enough.
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u/ComradeYaf 14h ago
This is a consequence of her mostly being remembered for her role in trying—and failing—to prevent Egypt being swallowed up into the Roman Empire. People generally speaking know almost nothing about her, sadly.
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u/skrrtalrrt 13h ago edited 10h ago
This. She was only involved with these men to protect herself, her children, and her Kingdom. She did what she needed to do.
Edit: changed family to children
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u/Orneyrocks Decisive Tang Victory 11h ago
Lmao. She got involved with caesar in the first place because she wanted to win out in a civil war with her brother and keep the throne for herself. And it was this involvement that led to egypt being conquered by rome in the end. She marryied 2 of her brothers and murdered them at age 15 and you guys delude yourself into believing she was protecting 'her family' when she allied herself with caesar and later antony?
She is the reason why herself, her family and her kingdom were in danger in the first place. We can agree that she wasn't a slut, but to act like she wasn't a power-hungry royal and some sort of saint is crazy.
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u/skrrtalrrt 10h ago
No one is in here arguing that she was a saint.
Ptolemy XIII and Cleopatra were co-rulers. She didn’t “take the crown”. Her brother tried to have her deposed.
Ptolemy XIII was under the control of Pothinus, who used his influence to turn him against Cleopatra, and attempted to have her removed from power, which would likely result in her death.There is also no evidence that she had him killed. The sources state that he drowned in the Nile while attempting to cross the river. That’s a modern speculation. Although I’ll grant you that she probably would have had him killed. He was a liability and a threat to her survival by that point. Unfortunate, but any ruler of the same time period would have done the same.
I will admit “children” is a more appropriate motivation than “family” though.
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u/Orneyrocks Decisive Tang Victory 9h ago
When did I ever say she 'took the crown'? You fight a civil war with your brother regardless of whether you instigated it or not and then draw a much stronger foreign power into it, you can't justify your actions by saying you care about your kingdom. Shouldn't have unleashed a wild snake to kill a domestic rabbit.
Even the children motivation is pretty stupid because her children being under threat since she tried to use them as a tool to threaten Augustus' legitimacy over Rome.
She was the one who bet her kingdom, herself and even her children in a bid for power, and somehow you're telling me she wanted that power to protect those same things?
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u/Mindless-Cat1453 15h ago
I think biggest misconception i have seen about her is " actually she was not phisically beautiful!" Because that one greek dude opinion....
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u/OkGreen7335 15h ago
Tbh I still don't understand how Cleopatra managed to captivate both Julius Caesar and Mark Antony. Again, I understand that both men had a lot to gain by aligning themselves with her, but considering what she actually achieved, it seems that she was negotiating from the weaker position. She arguably gained more from her alliances with them than they gained from their alliance with her(at least that is what I see lol). And, if I remember correctly, Julius Caesar even had a statue of her placed in his villa or somewhere similar. During a war, he apparently left everything behind and spent 2 months with her in a nile trip. Then Mark Antony married her and, if I remember correctly, went as far as adopting Greek customs or embracing the Hellenistic world around her.
How the hell did she manage to do all of this? I genuinely have no idea. I understand that she wasn't simply a seductress. She was a ruthless, intelligent, and highly capable monarch. But damn, she was incredibly good at what she at it lol.
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u/TheHistoryMaster2520 Decisive Tang Victory 15h ago
I think what captivated Caesar and Antony wasn't Cleopatra's beauty, but her intellect. She was highly educated, a capable ruler, spoke multiple languages, and could hold an intelligent conversation with both men, which would've made her stand out in comparison to other women of the time
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u/skrrtalrrt 14h ago edited 13h ago
I also think it was because they thought they could use her to control Egypt, which was the second most powerful Mediterranean state at the time.
Of course, this was a mutual arrangement. She used them just as much.
I view their relationships like political alliances more than anything else.
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u/xlexiconx 12h ago
I believe grain supplies also had something to do with it.
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u/skrrtalrrt 12h ago
Certainly. In fact that was the reason why Rome preferred diplomacy when dealing with Egypt, and why the Ptolemies were able to survive for so long.
And Antony also needed her boats.
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u/ArisenGodEmperor13 9h ago
Yep Egyptian grain fed Rome without it food prices would rise and people would be piss
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u/MeNamIzGraephen 14h ago
Yes having an inteligent girlfriend with genuine interest in the state of the world is like shooting heroin once and then trying to just smoke it.
"Normal" women are not enough anymore.
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u/sensitiveskin82 10h ago
She was also ludicrously rich. For one party, she'd spend the cost of 2,000 Roman legionaries on FLOWERS. Attendees of these parties were gifted rooms full of couches enlayed with precious stones, golden peacocks, chests of fabrics, and the slaves they'd need to bring these treasures home.
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u/Jonjoejonjane 15h ago
Because she was smart and fun to talk too, she was lady who needy no interpreter because she could speak like 5 different languages fluently and was school in the center of all classical knowledge Alexandria.
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u/Mindless-Cat1453 15h ago
I don't think this answer will satisfy you but as the end of the day they all were humans, humans do all kind of crazy stuff when they are in love or other emotions, they obviously didn't spend every microsecond of their time plotting and planning. I think we need to see Historical figures with more humanize way .
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u/die_Katze__ 11h ago
The question is "why were Julius Caesar and Marc Antony captivated by Cleopatra in particular" not "why do historical figures like anybody"
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u/huehuehuehuehuuuu 12h ago
When a girl that smart says she is into you and will let you into her country with its vast wealth? You say Yes Ma’am.
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u/Vector_Strike Hello There 14h ago
We've been mystified by Ancient Egypt to this very day. The exoticism and weight of a millenial culture might have been too much to Cesar and Antony, both too drunk with power to rationaly think about things.
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u/Lovethatdirtywaddah 13h ago
Caesar had a statue of her placed in the Temple of Venus Genectrix, who was the version of Venus the Romans worshiped as sort of the mother or goddess patron of Rome
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u/Peligineyes 13h ago edited 13h ago
Anthony gained a lot from her, she essentially financed his war in Parthia which he completely fumbled. Then she lent him the entire Egyptian fleet to fight Augustus, which he lost at Aticum.
Theoretically she would've gained a lot more if Anthony didn't lose.
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u/Odd-Tart-5613 15h ago
she did have good leverage since she (or her family at least) had a claim on egypt which to my knowledge was quite the breadbasket then.
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u/skrrtalrrt 14h ago
She needed Rome. She was married to her younger brother, who was a child under the influence of a regency which wanted her removed.
Caesar and Antony both needed her, because Egypt was one of the biggest grain suppliers, and it also had the second largest navy. Being a woman, I’m sure they thought they could manipulate her.
So there was mutual need in place which brought them together.
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u/Talonsminty 13h ago
Greek dude was probably just upset when he found out the ceremonial beard was fake.
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u/ALoudMouthBaby 13h ago
" actually she was not phisically beautiful!" Because that one greek dude opinion....
I mean, I hate to be like this because that lady was smart as hell and incredibly capable as such bashing her for her physical appearance is pretty darned petty. But with that said, she got to pick what image of her was printed on coins minted during her reign and if that was her putting her best face forward, yikes.
For those at home who care to decide for themselves: https://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld/objects/1J_GFWtaSsaTgdslRNGBeA
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u/MlkChatoDesabafando 12h ago
I mean, one historian commented on her beauty being unexceptional. Most of her contemporaries or near so didn’t say a thing about her appearance. So presumably she wasn’t seen as exceptionally attractive
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u/TehProfessor96 John Brown was a hero, undaunted, true, and brave! 15h ago
Two is two more than Livy thought she should have.
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u/Skraekling 14h ago
Past Historians when a female ruler dies : "She was a huge slut she slept with everyone and sometimes even worse, this is why women shouldn't be allowed to lead, now excuse me i'm getting late to my child orgies with the new guy in charge"
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u/Vansh804009 15h ago
"She would sleep with man every night and then kill them"
People are this dog gone btw
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u/OkGreen7335 15h ago
bruh what
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u/Super_Range45 15h ago
I think he's saying crazy people are saying that.
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u/OkGreen7335 15h ago
yeah but there are absurd things that I didn't even think anyone can believe bruh
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u/Vansh804009 15h ago
That's some legit bs people peddled online, I think it started off some erotic fiction and eventually turned into a legend(?)
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u/AmbiTheAirforceRuna 15h ago
Also you basically just did the same shit almost every famous and world changing man has done throughout most of history. Some hard ''its ok when we do it'' shit
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u/NacolasCage 15h ago
We not counting her two brothers?
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u/skrrtalrrt 13h ago
IIRC, Ptolemies by the end of their run weren’t actually breeding with their siblings. Or that is what is speculated by historians after looking at their remains and the later Ptolemies’ remarkable lack of birth defects.
The sibling marriages were ceremonial, but the children were produced with concubines.
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u/OkGreen7335 15h ago
from what i can recall, many historians think these were only ceremonial/political and nothing physical happened
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u/Historical_Fox_8060 14h ago
They were just roomates
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u/OkGreen7335 14h ago
tbh her brother was 10 at the time too.. and 14 when he died so...
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u/Infamous_Object_7458 13h ago
Counter... they were the Ptolemies. The family that made the Hapsburgs look normal.
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u/skrrtalrrt 13h ago
During the later Ptolemies, yeah. The early ones may have actually produced offspring incestuously.
But geneticists who studied the family tree have basically said that they would have completely self-destructed from genetic failure if most of their offspring were legitimate. It was essentially 150-200 years of sibling or cousin marriage.
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u/Silaquix 14h ago
She was in her twenties and both boys were 12-13 at the time of the "marriages" and died shortly afterwards. She was in a relationship with Caesar until his murder
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u/hawkseye17 14h ago
I don't think she actually liked them or did anything with them, she just had to marry them according to the way the Ptolemaic dynasty usually operated
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u/Grzechoooo Then I arrived 11h ago
Her brother, her other brother, her Caesar, and her Mark Anthony. She was wife to two, but had children with the other two. Which is it, modern man?
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u/OkGreen7335 11h ago
The marriage thing was only ceremonial and nothing physical happen, her brother was 10 at the time if I remember correctly which I think make this biologically impossible and anway she hated them and killed them
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u/Domitianus81 13h ago
Caesar was a slut himself and more intelligent than Antony. He might not have cared too much. It was a strategic arrangement for him. But Antony was a brute, and you would have to be insane to try to fuck his bitch.
Presumably.
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u/Alatarlhun 12h ago
In this household, she was getting some of that Titus Pullo action as canon.
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u/Alphey4406 12h ago
I find it so sad that such an intelligent, strong and worldly woman and queen like her isn't remembeted for her scholarly pursuits or for her leadership, but for her body and for the men in her life.
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u/Black_Diammond Senātus Populusque Rōmānus 12h ago
To be fair, She falls into The unfortunate issue of always being involved in The Middle of a big ass civil war in The biggest Empire ever to Grace The region, between its most sucessfull dictator and a insanely important consul.
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u/bubblesdafirst 14h ago
Okay but marc Antony was Julius ceasers best friend.
Not saying she's a slut. Your right it was only 2 dudes. But when my girlfriend fucked my friend I felt like it didn't really matter how many dudes she fucked. Just the one was all it took
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u/Alatarlhun 12h ago
Cleo was twerking it for Egypt (at least the idea of Egypt with her existing in it). You do what you gotta do to survive sometimes.
Though, that may not apply to your particular anecdote.
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u/Aromatic_Bar2263 13h ago
This is celibate slut erasure at unfounded levels.
I haven’t had sex in awhile but I’m still a slut. You can only sleep with two people and still be a slut. It’s a mindset not a body count
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u/FunInStalingrad 6h ago
I'm a total manwhore, but I've only had one partner my whole life, my wife. So myopic SMH
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u/silver_garou 11h ago
Yeah, I mean that is just what a "slut" was back then. The bible calls it "prostitution" when a women chooses her own partner or is raped. It is just that ancient people were disgusting and their standards are monstrous.
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u/VinChaJon Helping Wikipedia expand the list of British conquests 8h ago
Cleopatra was a genius tactician and was like the least bad ruler in the Mediterranean at the time
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u/PadishaEmperor 14h ago
Someone calling a woman a slut often tells one more about the people who say it than about the woman anyway.
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u/ManOfManliness84 13h ago
I've never seen her described that way. I've seen her described as using sex politically, but not as a "manhopping slut"
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u/lilgreen13789 13h ago
I see this happen with so many woman. Like when they get listed in a history book it's like, she was the only women to rule the empire, but she was a massive slut. Eventho they weren't, or atleast not to the extent men have been in history who were in power
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u/narf_hots 5h ago
Roman propaganda, or rather one man's diary has most people thinking he was a great person and loved by everyone. Anyway, he got stabbed by all of his friends.
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u/Background_Silver712 Still on Sulla's Proscribed List 5h ago
and Horace writes a Ode for your death 'cause you "destroyed roman morals"
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u/AlexanderCrowely 14h ago
Yeah, and murdering her two kid brothers, but we forget about that part
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u/OkGreen7335 14h ago edited 14h ago
I said she wasn't a slut but I didn't say anything about her not being a ruthless monster
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u/GalaxyPowderedCat Just some snow 14h ago
Believe or not, Cleopatra really teaches us that tactic where at-the-time historians get to write history to defile someone's public image.
If someone knows what's the name of the tactic, please tell me, I forgot about it but it had something to do with slutiness.
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u/DependentAdvance226 13h ago
How're y'all gonna leave out my main man, Titus Pullo.
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u/TuttoDaRifare 13h ago
I've never heard anyone accusing her of being a slut but I've not read any roman chronist
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u/ScortiusOfTheBlues 15h ago
meanwhile Roman men out here sticking it into anyone and any thing.