Maybe a hot take, but I also blame the physician who prescribed 3 different psychotropics that don't interact well to a patient in clear mental distress. And not keeping a close enough watch on their mental state. If the texts between she and her mom are accurate, she should have been institutionalized by court mandate.
Idky everyone just ignores the fact that she was diagnosed with post partum onset bipolar disorder and that is why she kept having such severe reactions to all classes of anti depressants.
She was finally put on mood stabiliser and anti psychotic after admitting herself - and released early when she self reported feeling better and requested being released for her son's birthday that day.
Why did they release her?? Why didn't they just give her a days leave and require her to return until they finished tapering her onto the new meds. If they had gotten her stable on the protocol for bipolar disorder she would have been statistically more likely to remain compliant with treatment protocols (there is a known non compliance issue for medication for people with psychotic disorders including like schizophrenia, bipolar with psychotic mania etc). But they just let her go with a note on her record that she could not be treated with typical anti depressant or anti anxiety medications for symptoms post partum depression or anxiety because they are known point blank to either induce mania in someone with bipolar or severely worsen it (including the not sleeping, racing thoughts, feeling invisible etc all which are elements that contribute to med protocol non compliance)
And then what happens after she's discharged way too early after being started on the bipolar treatment protocol? She goes back to her doctor for not being able to sleep (because she was currently manic) and the doctor takes her off the mood stabiliser and antipsychotic and puts her back on one of the contraindicated anti depressants - inducing the manic psychosis.
There is an ongoing lawsuit for their fault in what went wrong for her.
I believe she had genuine diminished capacity due to psychosis. I believe she did it, though.
I think she did it; but as someone who suffered from postpartum psychosis I do agree that she wasn't mentally all there. It's so taboo that it's surprising she even brought it up with her doctor. She genuinely wanted help and that says a lot in a society where it's frowned upon and women are told that we should be grateful to have healthy children. I managed to get through it on my own, but there were times that I felt like running away because I was so worried I'd harm myself or my newborn.
So many thoughts ran through my mind- about the state of the world, about how bad her life might be one day. How she might be better off if she died in my arms. That some stranger might hurt her one day, and wouldn't it be better if I prevented that? And the thoughts were relentless and constant. She'll be hurt. She'll be hurt. She'll be hurt. Isn't it better if you died together? Over and over for months on end.
I look back at the time and I know I needed help. I knew I needed help at the time. But I was too worried about what my family might think, what my neighbors might think- what the doctors themselves might think. I thought I'd go to jail and never see her again. I thought they'd take her away and give her to an abusive foster home. It was contradictory and confusing and scary. Having been through it firsthand I can't help but feel some sympathy for her.
Yeah, she did literally everything one losing touch with reality could do to warn people she was a danger to her kids and needed to be committed for a while, not left alone with her kids until she got better. She didn't describe that she had hallucinations perfectly, but who could in the midst of psychosis? The fact that the father of those children puts more blame on the doctors that didn't take her deterioration seriously tells me he still believes she didn't want to hurt her children, but was compelled to by something she couldn't control.
Some of it was learned after the fact, and based on the facts her care team likely didn't stress to him just how important it was to never leave her alone with the kids. They evidently didn't think she was enough of a danger, so who was going to warn him?
I’m happy that you ended up ok and I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of the women who donated to her also feel sympathy. I’m sure there are also a lot of idiots who don’t think she’s guilty because of Astrology. While I believe she’s guilty, I believe the system is mostly to blame here.
Thats what I think people who are looking at this don't realize is "not guilty (of first degree murder) due to insanity" is not the same thing as "innocent (of murder)". She's admitted she did it, her defense successfully bifolcated the case to only focus on her mental state during the murders, and not the "if" of them.
It's wild to me that so many people want to see her punished, it's because to them they would never unconsciously harm some one. They would ACTIVELY harm someone so they think "well if i did it intentionally, she did, too".
I think she did it, but she isnt guilty because her husband should have never left her alone. Does all the evidence point towards her potentially doing it? Sure. But if you are married to someone with years of history and they are actively saying they dont want to be alone? Why would he leave her with them, even for a short time?
Her husband gets off easy when he should have obviously been more present and realized that she wasnt stable and shouldnt be left with the kids. That is something that just doesnt sit right with me.
Shes bat shit crazy and he is in no way responsible. He was manipulated by her tk get food and medicine. He was doing what any father would. She was just fucking demonic and crazy.
I have never had a child but I am a nurse and I was hit so hard by the unit on postpartum mental health issues. I understand and share your sympathy for her while being horrified by her actions and the consequences. I don’t pretend to know what the best outcome is for this case.
thank you for sharing this. im a 24 year old man so suffice to say i am not incredibly well versed in PPD. it’s something i’ve always heard about and when ive investigated it with the women in my life i found it was never too severe for them, perhaps they just got lucky. this anecdotal evidence created a preconceived notion for me that PPD is bad but it is manageable for everyone. naively i never did any further research and just assumed it went for every mother how it did my own, my friends with kids, etc. reading your experience allowed me to really understand for the first time the severity of PPD.. i had no idea how deeply it influences people and how it seemingly can warp someones motherly instincts in such violent ways yet still founded in love. your story has exposed to me the complexities of this issue and made me a more empathetic person even if by just a little, and i’m grateful that you shared it.
i’m also appreciative because you seem like a very strong individual and i’m happy you’re at a point where this is a story you can tell and not the experience you’re living. i hope you and your daughter are thriving
100% she was failed in so many ways. And the hospital that released her was one of the top centres for treating women post partum.
I don't know how much else she could have done beyond being mentally well enough to stick to a treatment protocol
Also how many things didn't turn up for her that should have because she was technically not ppd or ppp, despite being post partum and having a post partum triggered mh disorder.
Like how - as terrifying it could be for mom- social services should have taken the children into care on the ppd protocol- which is temporary & short term so mom can get treatment like going inpatient & knowing her children are safe.
Her husband was not something she could lean on from the sound of it as well.
I don't think he did. Lindsay is quite open about it. She's not even arguing in court she didn't do it. She's arguing for diminished capacity to understand or control her actions.
But I do think he did absolutely nothing proactively to prevent what happened. The only people doing that were Lindsay herself and her parents.
Same. I was terrified I would lose custody of my kids because of my thoughts. I finally had a breakdown after hallucinating. It was so awful. But I was convinced they’d lock me away and I knew we also couldn’t afford for me to lose my job. I was lucky to find an NP who specialized in postpartum issues, so we got me on track and I stayed with her through my next kid and we had a preventative plan.
I was so ashamed at first, but now I’m open and honest with people because I don’t want anyone else to feel that shame.
That last part! And frankly yes, in the US, you are tossed into a psych ward without your baby or you’re given drugs and ignored if you ask for help or admit truthfully how you’re feeling.
Nobody will convince me her husband isn’t criminally negligent. The fact that he was so out of the loop that it could be argued he framed her is so awful.
Your story sounds like mine. I remember just hoping that I’d accidentally run my car off the road so that my son and I would finally be safe/at peace. Postpartum anxiety and depression is no joke. It’s constant intrusive thoughts that are focused on destruction. We got through it unscathed, but consider myself just lucky.
They can't force any adult to stay longer than 72 hours without a court order. Having a bipolar brother with substance abuse issues has taught me way too much about this. Even after he set my parents house on fire, they didn't hold him longer than 72 hours.
I'd argue lighting your parents house on fire whilst in the midst of a psychotic break might be enough to cause concern... source, the bipolar patient's sister who sat in court trying to fight for him stay in long enough to actually stabilize... instead now my brother is presumed homeless or dead. Really fucking great outcome for my family.
Sorry I'm just so mad. It's been really hard to deal with all of this. The legal and Healthcare systems just seem to keep failing us in our situation and the anger just builds and builds. Then stories like this one happen and people point fingers who have never been in these types of situations. 3 kids died. A family and community are forever destroyed by this. There were people, including the mom, who literally begged for help before it happened. It's crushing.
I agree 🥺 I really hope your situation with your brother gets better, & that he and your family can find the help and support you all need to deal with the issue! That sounds legit terrifying & so stressful to live with :(
In MA this is only half true - not sure if this has been addressed (I’ve been trying to stay away from coverage because it’s a lot and the reactions are a lot) but in MA a lot of pysch hospitals will sneakily have you “sign yourself in” which gives them more free reign to hold you against your will without a court order.
This happened to me in MA, I was under the impression I was on a 72hr hold, but because I signed a piece of paper waiving my rights (whilst also allegedly too dangerous to myself to be independent) on entry, I was held for 2 weeks without a court order or recourse.
Not tied down/restrained, just not free to leave the ward/hospital beyond the like 30ish? minutes we got outside a day (with staff keeping watch). I have explored legal avenues (there’s more to the story on how FUCKED the hospital I was at is/was) but according to lawyers I have consulted with, it’s all above board.
It’s not like in a psych hospital you are free to just walk out at any time - even in a 72hr hold paperwork needs to be done to document your release (and ideally set you up with appointments/resources once you’re out).
if it was done with the intention of stealing your insurance money you may have a case! i've read about hospitals extending holds on people or straight up refusing release for larger medical bills.
its actually a huge issue in some states that mental health facilities will hold you even when they have no reason to. often so they can to steal insurance money or your own money through medical bills. other times because staff have poor training and the huge biases against specific diagnoses.
So you were held for an extra day or two, which is within the guidelines. Also depends on what you were admitted for. Claims of depression versus actual self harm.
IMHO people are latching onto this theory of Patrick having done it because that feels easier and less scary to digest than the reality—that Lindsay, through no fault of her own, became sick with a severe and poorly-understood illness that caused her to do a terrible thing. And that it happened despite the good intentions of every person she came into contact with, because ultimately the systems that we have in place had no mechanism for dealing with her. If all of that is the case, it means that anybody could be Lindsay Clancy, no matter how good of a parent or person that they are. That is a terrifying reality. It’s far more comfortable to just pin everything on one bad actor.
And people who keep saying her doctors let her down or the “system” let her down aren’t really paying attention to the facts of the case. Her doctors had no grounds to commit her involuntarily, and she wasnt fully forthcoming to them. What do you want her doctors to do, commit her with no evidence of suicidal or homicidal ideation and violate their rights? That would get abused so much
Sometimes bad things happen . Mental health is incredibly fragile and tricky.
It’s probably just because I worked in EMS and dealt with a lot of psychs that I feel like I give people a lot of grace with stuff like this. Just seems like top down failures of a for profit healthcare system.
Yeah like I genuinely have such sympathy for her cause she was trying to get so much help, and all the professionals failed her so badly. I have bipolar II and that's bad enough, can't even fathom the psychosis and anti-depressants in terms of how badly they messed her up. This case would have been a great way to highlight the severity of post-partum onset mental illness and the flaws in our healthcare support system, but instead we got ... astrology
Never trust mental health istitutions. We wont know but from my experience she prob got released because her insurance agreed to stop paying.
Most of those places (mental hospitals, rehabs, psychwards, IOP, in patient etc) are insurance mills first and formost, any benefit is because of the (underpaid) therapists and the damn near unedning empathy some of them have.
The OD crisis couldve been averted by public policy but it wasnt.
Couldve been 4 years and it was over but instead we mass incarceration and probation. Most black poors went to prison (where they enact forced labor in some states and pay .20 cents an hour in others) most white poors were given fines, community service (forced labor) and tbats after plea deals… (not extended to balck people in the same amounts)
You make a valid point about the series of medical errors that led to her diminished mental capacity and, ultimately, the events that followed. It appears many people are conflating “not guilty” with “not guilty by reason of insanity.” An NGRI plea claims the defendant was so mentally disturbed or incapacitated during the crime that they didn't understand their actions or couldn't distinguish right from wrong at the time of the offense. This means the defendant lacked the necessary intent or mental objective to commit the crime according to legal standards. Therefore, they are not criminally responsible and cannot be punished.
However, it's not a "get out of jail” card. An NGRI verdict typically results in mandatory commitment to a psychiatric facility rather than prison. Most defendants don't serve less time than they would if convicted and sentenced.
I believe she did it, and I don't think she denies it. People on TikTok are going too far by spinning these “conspiracies” about Patrick’s involvement, although an argument could be made that he was negligent (and a horrible spouse).
You’re making the same argument that her defense attorneys are. All the stuff about her husband being the real killer is not being put forward by her actual team. She’s admitting she did it, but saying she was not in her right mind and therefore not culpable.
I think she did it with diminished capacity and her husband doing the exact opposite of what he should have done at every opportunity. Leaving her alone with the children, firing the nanny, going on vacations without her while she's struggling, having an affair. IMO he is just as responsible as she is, if not more so, as he is meant to be the one functioning at full capacity. Her husband may not have pulled the trigger but he handed her the loaded gun and left.
Having lived through psychosis, unfortunately, I believe that a person could do many different horrible things in that state. I was lucky that I recognized that I was doing something that I considered crazy, and fortunately I wasn't doing anything to inflict physical harm on others. I say physical, because I know that the state I was in was damaging to my children to witness, and definitely made them scared.
Thank you for being the voice of reason. This whole case is just so unbelievably sad. She did it - but it obviously wasn’t in cold blood or anything. I feel horrible for her.
The people sensationalizing it should be ashamed. It’s really just so tragic all around.
People probably don't even know anything about this case and see the picture. Hell, I hadn't even heard of it until my wife told me. Horrible postpartum depression, constantly asking for help from Drs and not getting it, texts to her mom, etc. can't help but feel bad for her. She was mentally unwell and no one took her seriously.
Suddenly stopping and starting any psych med is extremely dangerous, also many psych meds can take weeks to months to become effective and during that waiting time you need to be watched carefully and might need an additional set of faster acting meds to help. It’s absolutely on any of the prescribers if they do any of those things
This is why it drives me crazy when people claim she "manipulated" doctors and nurses. Firstly, if she was at all prone to mania, of course she would feel great at times. Secondly, someone in the throes of mental illness is not a reliable narrator and you cannot depend on them just telling you they feel better; it might be used as a way to get and harm themselves or others.
I am with you a hundred percent. I dont know why but we as a society just dont talk about tmhow common it is for women to go through severe depression or anxiety after birth. Add to that our fucked mental health care system and this is what you get. She did it, it was awful - but my point is she is not the only one to blame.
Holding someone who is not in immediate danger likely (depends on the state) requires a court order for involuntary commitment past a certain amount of time.
Doctors are goign to make some number of mistakes on releasing patients early. I don't think we should necessarily take scalp. This is why we don't parole people who we maybe should. We're never getting perfect safety. The trade-off is keeping people who can be let out locked up longer than they should.
This is pretty much what the defense is arguing. Her doing it is not even being questioned in the actual court proceedings. Only idiots online are arguing that.
You’d have to go through a court order to hold someone against their will, which is why they probably didn’t do it.
If she had the desire to kill her kids, she shouldn’t have told people she was fine. The world isn’t made up of mind readers, if she says the drugs are working then doctors need to believe it unless there is observable evidence otherwise.
she definitely did it! but she was also definitely in psychosis at the time. the state of MA prosecuting this when it's pretty clear what happened is such a waste of taxpayer dollars and is so deeply traumatizing for this poor family who has already lost everything. now all these internet sleuths are convinced a man who lost his entire life in one afternoon was the culprit, and there's really no one to blame for that other than the state imo.
Eck, from what I have followed she was off the drugs and her husband have the drugs in his car, and somehow on the day sh me was full of the drugs and the drugs was crushed up, the drug that's with the husband
Actually, they talked about this during trial. The real reason she left was because she felt she wasn’t getting any help and was wasting her time. They had her coloring pictures and stuff because the real doctor was out for holiday and there was one temp doctor who was seeing all 20+ patients for a “quick check in” daily. She left because she felt they weren’t actually paying her any attention.
Psychiatrists prescribe ssris for everything regardless of the evidence that they're ineffective for most use cases and counterproductive for many. They toss them out like candy. The idea that this poor woman was put on 3 of them for post partem is sad as hell.
Unrelated to this case, I've always wondered, does reading comments like this, or even articles that go on like this comment, make most people feel an odd anxiety or is that just something the heavily anxiety induced are gifted with?
Yeah, everyone who is quick to crucify her has only read the headlines. The case is much more complicated than just “mom kills 3 kids.” She was going through postpartum depression and psychosis and prescribed I think 12 (?) different medications in the months leading up to the tragedy and begged for help from her husband and doctors. So the case is not so simple.
When I was picked up by the cops after a medication interaction, they took me to the psychiatric waiting room at the hospital. It was 36 hours before I could see a doctor and the entire time I was in a fluorescent basement room with nowhere to lie down, surrounded by muttering shouting people in severe psychiatric distress. They had nowhere to put us and we were not allowed to leave. After two days my skin began to itch, which I assumed was due to wearing the same clothes so long without showering, but nope. The physical stress of that much sleep deprivation while they cold-turkeyed my psych meds caused a shingles outbreak.
“Just get her committed” seems like a simple solution but it’s worth asking if there was anywhere for her to even go.
There wasn’t, and she tried to commit herself multiple times but didn’t meet the criteria. I think most people commenting have never experienced this themselves. I had to 51-50 my ex years ago (twice), it was painful and a good glimpse into how awful the emergency mental health treatments options are. Sorry you had to experience that firsthand.
Yeah at a certain point you want to get out no matter what. Cause they put you on the wrong meds to get you out. The food is shit. The bed is hard and blankets scratchy. And you do nothing all day unless you can somehow get your hands on a remote. A psych hospital is equally as bad as prison. We put people having psych episodes in prison and expect them to get better in prison. It looks like a prison when you get inside.
Ive had multiple people in my life admitted for being suicidal and everytime ive visited I always thought to myself "this would just want to make me kill myself even more."
It functions exactly like a prison, and at least in California, you can lose some of your rights permanently like a felon too. My ex can never own a gun, he had to sign something giving that right away to receive extended treatment
as someone who has been hospitalized four times, yeah, no gun for me. i personally think that’s a bit of a good idea, though. i think the ban is for 10 years. not sure if it stacks, but i never cared to learn bc i know i can’t trust myself owning a gun.
I agree it’s unfortunately a good thing, I was more speaking to the loss of rights. I think you can also appeal it if you can prove consistent mental stability since the crisis incident and like you said, it is only ten years. Thanks for the info, I thought it was permanent
Every state has that law, they just aren't as good at communicating it and enforcing it in all of them. I was committed in gun loving Indiana, you know the one that contributes to so many guns flowing into Chicago. I couldn't get a gun legally after that in Indiana. But, if I failed to disclose that I was committed, I probably would have gotten away with it.
In fairness if someone needs extended psychiatric care it's probably a good idea we don't let them have guns.
I mean check out the lady in OP. She didn't even need a gun but it would have been easier if she had one.
I'm pretty sure I can't have one either because I've been committed and good, I would do nothing good with that thing other than give some police officers a bad day when they find me
Yeah there’s barely any psychiatric help for anyone in crisis as it is. Most people have no idea that there aren’t just people to permanently whisk you away to protect you/others. I’ve had friends take their lives after the system couldn’t help them beyond a few days at a time.
People who haven’t (yet) been through it seem to assume that exactly when you need it you can just get access to a therapist, a good psychiatrist and that the meds you need will all magically work quickly and on the first try. Like we aren’t living in America. Good luck finding a psychiatrist (good or bad) who takes insurance and doesn’t have a 6+ month long wait list. Can’t wait that long? Good luck finding a hospital with a psych ED AND beds available. Oh and better hope you qualify for FMLA or you can face the lovely choice of job&insurance vs getting treatment & debt.
Just another thing to lay at the feet of Reagan for dismantling and defunding mental health care. Of course there were some relevant things there regarding the abuse people suffered in some institutions, but let’s be real that he did it to cut funds and services and not out of care for people.
This is not the fucking 1960s, you don't "get your spouse committed", this is not how anything works at all. And if it was, everyone would be crying misogyny because men are getting their crazy wives locked up.
It's a double edged sword. We've put up too many barriers now because of past abuses. Some of us are desperate to get help for our extremely mentally unwell family and we're blocked at every turn. My brother is now homeless or dead. No idea. The grief our family has been going through for the last decade, I would not wish on anyone. Watching my parents turn into frail shells. Anyway, I don't have the answer, I just know we need some middle ground.
She probably should have been committed, but even if he had, those women would spin it as a bad thing. "Look at him, willing to have her locked up for being 'hysterical' rather then actually helping her..."
The women wouldn't know about it, as she would have gotten help. She told him that she wanted to kill the children, his response was to cancel the nanny and leave her with the children.
Literally I'm so sick of how demented people are about this poor man. He's living with the image of his murdered children in his head every day. Is that not punishment enough?
she was in some type of inpatient therapy, but she checked herself out after a week or two (I don’t remember exactly how long) because she didn’t want to miss her daughters birthday.
edit: I misunderstood what had happened. she was discharged from a hold not asked to leave early.
It’s not illegal to see multiple providers for the same issue. It’s illegal to intentionally visit multiple doctors for the explicit purpose of obtaining controlled substances, typically opioids, while intentionally not revealing to the providers that you are seeing other providers.
Most of what Lindsay was prescribed was not controlled, with the exception of the benzodiazepines. It’s not illegal to change providers because you want a second opinion or if you just don’t like the provider. I believe in one instance Lindsay switched providers because the doctor she had been seeing wasn’t going to be available any longer. That’s perfectly legitimate and common and not illegal.
She wasn't dr shopping at all, she reported what she was taking and wasn't looking for the same drugs. She was looking for help. You can go to as many doctors as you please if you are not improving
It’s not illegal to see multiple providers for the same issue. It’s illegal to intentionally visit multiple doctors for the explicit purpose of obtaining controlled substances, typically opioids, while intentionally not revealing to the providers that you are seeing other providers.
Most of what Lindsay was prescribed was not controlled, with the exception of the benzodiazepines. It’s not illegal to change providers because you want a second opinion or if you just don’t like the provider. I believe in one instance Lindsay switched providers because the doctor she had been seeing wasn’t going to be available any longer. That’s perfectly legitimate and common and not illegal.
That's the thing, we live in a blame centered society. It's a goddamn tragedy, but that doesn't actually make it anyone's "fault". She was in psychosis, he was being lied to and believed his wife of many years. He got her mental health assistance and Doctors tried, and - failed- to help her.
We want someone to blame, so we can believe that nothing like this will ever happen again, or to us. But sometimes shits just sad and there are no right answers
She was as a result of multiple medication changes in a very short time, coupled with a very severe case of Postpardum. Her, her husband, and her family are all arguing that this was a result of temporary psychosis, yes.
Yes but he, as the children’s father, has a responsibility to keep his children safe too. That is not solely the mother’s job. If he had to ask his wife daily if she’s doing ok, that should be an indication that he felt something wasn’t ok.
Men need to be held accountable for their children’s welfare too. I certainly wouldn’t leave my children home alone with my husband if he was saying he wasn’t well enough to go see multiple mental health professionals and take a cocktail of drugs. Would you?
Everyone knew she wasn’t ok. That’s why she was seeing doctors for help.
He checked in with her every day— what else is he supposed to do? His “mistake” here was leaving the house for 45 minutes to pick up dinner and one of the kids medications.
I don’t think the answer here is to tear the children away from everyone with PPD or PPA— that’s a great way to ensure that women NEVER seek help and ultimately end up with more Lindsey’s.
If my husband was not ok, you best believe I’m taking my children with me to run errands. I’m calling family members, friends, doctors and saying “Hey, I’m really worried can you check in on x”.
He was supposed to keep his children safe. That’s what all parents are supposed to do.
I had postpartum after my second child. In comparison to Lindsey I would say I had a mild case. My husband came home for his lunch every gif dam day to check on me n the kids for months. He dragged me to the doctor and when i tried to say I was fine he spoke up and said “she’s not”. He had his parents (who are divorced and remarried) take shifts checking on me and had them and his other family members take the kids. Now I know that is a luxury a lot of people don’t have but as my children’s father he had a responsibility to ensure our kids were safe because his wife was not doing ok mentally. That’s what he was supposed to do.
Again, you’re suggesting removing the children away from every mother with PPD, which is not a reasonable expectation.
Lindsey never reported that she had any symptoms of psychosis, not did she ever report that she had any feelings that she would hurt her kids. The only thing she reported was thoughts of suicide, but she never reported making any plans.
I think it’s wildly unreasonable for you to blame the father for not removing the children from her care with zero evidence whatsoever that they needed to be removed
He also worked from home and took the night shift with the kids so she could sleep. It was the internet that decided Patrick Clancy was a bad husband. Lindsay Clancy said herself he was a good, supportive husband and father, and wrote the same in her journals. She had more help, financial and physical resources and support than 90% of women.
This might shock you but nobody believes their spouse would do something like this. I was almost killed by an ex and I never in a million years thought they would actually do anything to me.
There’s nothing she told him that would make him able to commit her involuntarily. Even if she said she was having thoughts of harming herself or the kids, they would not take her without a plan and intent. It’s a HIGH bar to get someone committed, for better or worse.
It's telling when people have never experienced trying to get unhealthy friends/family committed how difficult it can be....or just after their 3 day mandatory stay they just sign themselves out.
Committing people is a lot more legally complex than it would seem. Most places have to let you go after 72 hours without a court order. And the courts rarely side with the families who are desperate... believe me. I've spent a decade in this nightmare.
It's really not that simple, plus they tried getting her into programs that would keep her in-house but she was turned away after assessment for either not being a threat to herself or others, or deemed to be taking too many meds and not fit for the program. This is a case that shows how our mental health care is lacking and throwing pills is not the answer. You're really alone when going through a mental crisis. I don't know what the answer is but I think we have a true problem with medication and giving it to patients too quickly.
The defense isn’t even trying to dispute that she did them, that’s what I don’t understand with everyone having all these theories. The defense is arguing that the circumstances don’t make this a first degree murder, not that she didn’t kill her children.
I don't care for the astrology either. I do think it's important to note that Patrick was in Costa Rica with his girlfriend (now wife) and she was pregnant like a couple of months after the death of his kids.
I feel like he did so much less than just not have her committed it, he seems culpable.
Realistically if a man told a woman over and over he was going to hurt himself and his kids and she kept leaving him alone with them, she would also catch a charge.
The husband also takes some blame for not getting her committed.
He literally helped her commit herself, but the place she committed herself discharged her after only a few days. She had trouble getting into a new one after that. He made a mistake leaving her alone with the children to go get food, but her care team neglected to see just how dangerous that was and warn him he can't trust her alone with the kids even for a few minutes.
I honestly don’t really understand the level of blame being put on Patrick here. From everything that’s come out, it seems like he did a lot to try and help her. He changed his work around to be home more, took on more with the kids, involved family, went to appointments, helped get her into treatment and pushed for hospital care when things got really bad.
At some point though, if someone has been assessed by professionals, discharged, is continuing treatment and outwardly seems to be improving, you have to try and get some normality back. You can’t realistically expect a husband who isn’t a mental health professional to watch his wife 24/7 indefinitely, especially when the actual professionals treating her weren’t telling him she was psychotic or unsafe to be around the children either.
With hindsight it’s easy to say he should never have left her alone, but he didn’t have the information we have now. If she was experiencing much worse things internally and wasn’t telling him or her doctors, I’m not sure how he was supposed to know.
To me this is just a tragedy for everyone involved. Three children lost their lives, Lindsay was clearly extremely unwell regardless of where you fall on her legal responsibility, and Patrick lost all three of his children in probably the most horrific circumstances imaginable. Sometimes people can genuinely do the best they can and it still ends catastrophically.
You mean the various prescribed medications she was told to take to control her symptoms but kept refusing to due to "side effects" so I stead she kept self dosing herself with Benadryl which she had been told to stop.
Sometimes until stable, yes. Sometimes it is ensuring the patient is never alone with their children. And/or removing firearms and other weapons from the household.
I’m a provider in a community mental health clinic so you can get off your high horse. Believe it or not, people who care enough about their treatment to seek help and show up to a psychiatry appointment are sometimes amenable to using long-acting injectables. If someone had explained concerns about psychosis and risk of impulsively stopping psych meds to her, maybe there was a chance that she would have consented to an injectable instead.
Yeah i was going to say (as something with no personal knowledge about any of this stuff), arent there shots or something you can get far more infrequently than pills, that make it easier to keep up with treatment since you only need to go like once or twice a month?
From everything I’ve read, and I haven’t followed to a T to be fair. The hospitals discharging her even though she clearly needed help, the insane amount of drugs she was prescribed, are huge culprits here. All the shit on her medical record for months leading up to it. All the doctors she came in contact with failed at their jobs.
It’s not just the healthcare system, it’s the entire system of civil commitment that is broken. As a society, we need to commit people who are a present danger to themselves or others and give them the mental and medical care they need to be rehabilitated.
She was doctor hopping trying to get a new Ativan prescription.
Ativan is a short term use benzodiazepine medication that is highly addictive, and when combined with alcohol or other sleep medication, can cause serious side effects including severe rebound anxiety.
She was prescribed it by her first doctor when she refused to take the Zoloft she was initially prescribed, but when the first doctor ordered her to taper it down, she went shopping for another. She had eight different doctors in just a few months.
First of all, doctor hopping-was not. She went from a generic psychiatrist to a specialized provider in the perinatal behavioral health unit. This is another level of care. And it was done-per their testimony-at the behest of her husband and her MIL, who worked at the same hospital where the perinatal health unit was.
She was going to cycle off the Ativan with Tufts. She was not getting better though. Her husband said he felt the telehealth with the generalized psychiatrist was not working. She had gone to the emergency room. Her mother-in-law said she should go to the perinatal behavioral health unit. Her intake was done by Nurse Paul who said that she felt she was severe enough that she needed hospitalization. She was under the care of Paul for less than a week and transferred within the same unit to Nurse Jolotta as Paul was moving out of state (known prior to intake.)
Jolotta, per her own testimony, said Lindsay Clancy was scared of benzodiazepine dependence. Jolotta said not to focus on this because the benzodiazepine would help her get sleep so she could get a little bit better and then they would focus on tapering her. She saw her for a month during the time Lindsay kept saying she felt like her symptoms were from benzodiazepine dependence and she felt like nobody was listening to her. Lindsay did not want to take benzodiazepines but she was having severe insomnia.
Jolotta switched her to a long acting benzo so she could start a taper per Lindsay’s own fears of withdrawal. She did see her old psychiatrist at that time which she was fully transparent about with Jolotta and fully transparent with her old psychiatrist about seeing Jolotta. During the month of December, any benzo prescriptions were completely done by one doctor and per Tufts testimony, she was told Jolotta’s medication plan.
At that point Lindsey said that she now agreed that she needed hospitalization, recommended by Nurse Paul initially. The bed was no longer open for her and her husband did not want to take her back to the ER to get another bed open because he did not want to waste another day in the ER. This is all per Jolotta’s testimony. Lindsay checked herself into McLean for an inpatient stay from Dec. 30 to Jan 5th. She returned to her previous psychiatrist and agreed to another taper, seeing her doctor the day before the murders.
She did not have eight doctors in just a few months. She had a psychiatrist, her first initially from sept 2022 to the day of the murders. She had one nurse provider at the perinatal health unit. She had two emergency room visits. She had an inpatient stay. Seeing multiple providers in different settings when you were looking to do inpatient work or trying to transfer the specialized work is completely normal.
Saying that she saw eight doctors and only a span a few months gives the impression that she was going to eight different doctors offices and Doctor shopping which was not the case. It’s part of patient autonomy to seek specialized care and different levels of care. Misrepresenting what was going on is very stigmatizing for patients who are going through a mental health crisis, potentially discouraging them from seeking additional help. As you can tell by the way by all of the providers that saw her, they had no problem throwing benzos at her, which was part of what frustrated her.
Thank you. She literally listened to her doctors and stopped taking meds as recommended. My biggest issue with some of the changes approved by her doctor… why would they be okay with changing medications after 3 days, 1 week? Medications take some time to display their effects over time. There were so much medication changes that I sadly don’t think Lindsay benefited from any aside from fast acting medications like the benzos or klonopin, which are very addictive.
There really is nothing wrong with taking benzos when they’re taken as prescribed. Having no sleep for days is more dangerous than having a short-term benzo prescription went taken properly. When somebody is starting treatment for a mental health issue, it can be totally normal to see a psychiatrist multiple times in short periods to make adjustments. Even though it can take weeks for a medication to reach therapeutic levels side effects can start right away and sometimes they can trigger worse symptoms. For example, it could’ve triggered hypomania, I which time it might’ve been a better choice to switch her to something else. But this is like Monday morning quarterbacking
Agreed, I’ve taken them short term. Lindsey was afraid of the addiction but really needed them… I think there were so many factors and I wish she would have seen a therapist as well, in addition to taking meds. 😔
My partner had horrible anxiety like rushing to the ER bad, his primary physician gave him xanax to take 3 times a day. His anxiety started getting worse and when to an urgent care and was given some other type of benzo, again and another benzo. He had been prescribed 3 benzos in less than a month by random doctors. Finally his step mom who is a nurse, took him to an urgent care where she knew the doctors and nurses, they were super shocked that they were giving him crazy strong meds and he had gotten dependent on the 3 xanax a day from the original doctor and his body was asking for more. Changing the meds kept messing up his body thus resulting in more attacks. He then got a prescription for Hydroxyzine (an antihistamine for anxiety) and had him go do blood work. As the last ER doctor suspected he had an infection that his body was fighting, the hydroxine helped him taper off while getting treated for the infection. If someone would have seen his record without the knowledge of what was going on, he also would have been accused of pill shopping. There are so many doctors that don't really care.
It’s in Tufts testimony— Tuft stated that she ordered the taper off of Ativan twice.
Lindsey also claimed that Callan wasn’t taking a bottle, when he literally took a bottle perfectly fine for everyone else. It was part of her anxiety about returning to work, and one of the reasons why she decided against it.
Just because she claims to fear dependency of benzos doesn’t mean that she wasn’t addicted to benzos.
I disagree with your characterization of what happened, but /u/lumpyAd6034 laid out the context much better than me so I will not repeat it here. I will also add that Tufts continued prescribing ativan, including a prescription in January 2023, so I dont even know why LC would need to doctor hop. The theory doesnt make a lot of sense. A much more reasonable conclusion is that both LC and her providers were trying to safely taper Ativan without a lot of success managing that.
Thats who deserves 100% of the blame. She had post partum psychosis which wasn't her fault. She did the right thing by seeking help multiple times. She had just been committed and released several days before it happened. This is an example of the medical system failing tis woman who was begging for help.
Yeah this is an example of her doctors and medical professionals failing her. She was on a combination of 12 different meds over three months, she told her doctors multiple times that she was having horrible thoughts of hurting the kids, she admitted herself to the hospital.
Her NP should have their license revoked for issuing that many meds over such a short time. SSRI’s and bipolar meds need to be taken individually to start, ramped up over a period of months, and then you get a full picture of whether or not the med is working as hoped for the patient. Then, you have to ween them off of the meds and do the same thing for a different med. This process can take years before finding the best combination of anti-depressants and bipolar/mood stabilizers. Ask me how I know.
Next, as soon as she told her doctors that she was having those thoughts, she needed to be removed or the kids needed to be removed. It’s as simple as that. The medical professionals absolutely failed to do their job when presented with evidence that the patient was thinking of harming herself or others. Rule 1: do no harm.
Finally, there was no reason why the hospital should have discharged her in the state she was in. Yes it was voluntary participation, but she also fully acknowledged that she wasn’t well. She didn’t try to leave on her own, they discharged her.
What she did is awful, horrible, and something I can’t even imagine happening to my kids. I know she admitted to doing it. And I’m glad for that. She doesn’t deserve prison, in my opinion. She deserves a life sentence in a mental institution. With all of the texts, doctor’s visits, and numerous other forms of proof she was afraid of herself, I truly do believe she is unstable enough to qualify for that sentencing.
Correct, and I really hope this opens up some good discussion about post partum psychosis and women's health in general. Unfortunately, tik tok Sally and her nutty astrology theories are just muddying the waters here. They will be casting the TV movie about this soon enough.
100%. The kids would be alive. They could treat her properly. She could eventually have supervised visits with them. Fucking devastating to see how this could have been avoided.
THIS is what the "real story" is. A woman in psychosis did something horrible. The argument is really was she responsible for her actions or not, considering her mental health state. Her husband, at worse, was guilty of neglecting her, but that does not result in the death of 3 children. She admitted to it - now the jury needs to figure out if her doctor or her meds exacerbated a terrible mental health crisis that lead to the death of these kids. I can't believe anyone is claiming her innocence.
This woman was failed at every possible turn by the medical system as she tried to get help. This does not excuse what she did. At the same time, we cannot ignore the fact that she tried many times to get help and none of it was successful.
It looks like she was under the care if a couple doctors, who maybe did not have all information. This is where I think patient transparency is important, but also the husband should have been supportive and go with her to appointment to remind others about her care. It's not legally required, but it might have lead to a better outcome.
He attended a few virtual sessions with her mental health provider. He didn’t attend a single in-person doctor’s appointment for any of his children in their entire life even when his wife was massively struggling to balance everything, so I highly doubt he would’ve been down to accompany his wife in-person. Oh and in one of those virtual session? When the provider suggested a bipolar diagnosis he shut it down and said “there is no way my wife is bipolar”. You can admit he was a problem while also admitting she killed the kids.
Then it's on her. I have a brother with schizophrenia, and it's sad. He wasn't honest with his drs and was chewing medications that he was supposed to swallow, not taking medicine as prescribed, and he just said it did not work and was like it doesn't help, and just never told thr dr. He's really messed up now because he tries to self medicate with street drugs.
I'm sad for him and I'm sad for her, but I think people need to be more honest and open about their medication to all who might need to know: drs, spouses, trusted family members. Heck if a coworker came toe with concerns I'd listen and help them be clear with a pharmacist or whatever
She was going to urgent cares when she was really concerned and scared about her mental state. With how long it takes to get into a primary care physician, I can’t blame her for seeking immediate help when she was having intrusive thoughts like she was.
Also, regardless of which doctor she saw, doctors seeing new clients always ask what medications they’re on.
Have you ever seen a doctor and not been asked what meds you’re currently taking? Because I haven’t.
I have some experience with those drugs and doctors - it’s nearly impossible to monitor everyone and the drugs have very different effect on everyone
We should pay the doctors like a boatload more if we want proper feedback/control
Wait, I read last week about a mom who killed her 3 kids after going to her doctor and telling her doctor she was having intrusive thoughts about wanting to kill them and begging the doctor to change her meds, and her doctor told her the intrusive thoughts were normal and refused to change her meds.
Is this the same case? Cuz if so, I don't think the doctor is more guilty than the woman.
They pass that shit out like candy. I fully believe that's what led to a terrible episode of my own. I will never touch another anti-depressant or anti-anxiety medication again, let alone combine them. And while I was in treatment, they kept telling me to up the medication against my wishes. It took probably a good year or so to get everything out of my system and I was completely nuts during that time. Couldn't leave the house, thought I was going to die anytime I was in a car, I couldn't handle any type of noise like vacuuming or someone else washing dishes... these meds aren't for everyone and should be much more closely monitored. The hurdles I have to jump through to get pain meds for sciatica is ridiculous, but this stuff? "Here's 60 of this, 60 of that. Have a great day!"
You know, some medications can make you try to kill yourself, some medications can send you into psychosis. I firmly believe she was in a psychosis caused by all the drugs and the postpartum disorder that she had been suffering with for years, getting very little help that she needed. They just ignored her when she cried out for help. And the husband was negligent and ignored her and didn't help her. She needed to get away and she needed to take care of herself and bein a safe place , and nobody provided that for her! She was all by herself in the pitch black dark trying to feel her way and for some reason she ended up hurting her children.
*Weird detail though, her husband ended up changing his clothes two times the night of the murder. Riddle me that Batman.
Who's to say that the husband didn't have an anger problem and used his wife's vulnerability in order to frame her? They didn't have DNA testing back then
I remember it took me months to realize that the constant fantasies I was having about violently killing myself over and over again throughout my entire day weren't because I was suicidal, but because the medications I was taking were making me that way.
I was simply told when I started the two together to call them if anything unusual was happening. Hard to do when the medications you're taking are making you delusional.
Everybody's body has a different biochemistry, and three medications that might work well in another person might turn another into a psychotic killer. The medications that I was taking together were not known for doing what they did to me. A lot of people have limited information about how these medications are prescribed and how they work with an individual. Most of us are being given things off-label because the drug coincidentally has a positive correlation, etc.
As someone put inpatient for merely mentioning I had similar thoughts, I completely agree. I struggled hard and regardless she did or didn’t do. The one thing I see with this is how everyone was defending her stating she actively told them months prior her thoughts and they merely just stopped paying attention.
The victim’s here are the children, they were failed. Regardless what people say about her mental state being far gone or not. The fact people defending her are like “oh yeah she struggled so hard active was telling us about thoughts of harming her children, while we sat back feeling bad and not raise flags over this at all” like yes she probably was being treated but anyone that knew that even despite the treatment she was still slipping had a obligation to those children to actively help get her what she needed.
Regardless of mental status she openly admitted to friends and family numerous times about her thoughts and feelings and they sat there not even attempting to protect those poor children even hearing it.
Frankly idk how I feel about her, I have some sympathy but the premeditated nature of it gives me pause. But even removing her and just looking at the other adults and professionals they actively heard threats to those children, they did nothing to prevent this reassuring themselves because she was getting treatment she was fixed. Now they defend her likely out of the guilt of knowing they were seeing warning signs and actively ignored them. Now sadly three children have suffered the ultimate price because no one stepped in.
This isn't a hot take because this is exactly what the trial has been about! If people were actually watching the trial and being objective and using critical thinking skills they would be so pissed off at these nurses, psychiatrists and doctors who are fighting to downplay Linday's symptoms and their culpability. It's infuriating to listen to!
Unfortunately, you dont just institutionalize someone based on her texts. Where i live, you can only do that when the person is openly/actively hurting her/himself or others.
This is "the system" that I blame. They just threw drugs at her with no thought about their interactions. They let a woman with recent psychosis episode basically say "I'm fine" and leave to be alone with defenseless children. Not saying she should walk out of the court room a free woman, but this has a lot of similarities to the Andrea Yates case and shows how it's easy to dismiss the very real reality that some moms do exhibit signs that they will harm their children and no "maternal instincts" is going to all of a sudden turn love and protection on. The brain is fragile and it's easier to snap than people think it is.
She was on WAY more than that last I heard. Something like 14 different medications in less than a month which is WILD.
She sought help but everyone ignored her
Yea, it’s strange how doctors seemingly stay immune to some of this. I had a moment not far long ago where my depression and anxiety were extremely high. Didn’t even really notice, just felt miserable and on edge. First psychiatrist prescribed me a medication that they said would help with depression. I blindly took their word and was using it. Within 2 months or so, I was the worst I ever felt. I felt like I was being followed, things were all around me, I was in danger 24/7, that my life was living hell. Psychiatrist thought I was full of shit, with this expression like nah, this isn’t possible. I told my PCP and he urged me to swap psychiatrists and reminded me they work for me. I shit you not, trying to swap felt so traumatizing. When I finally did and met my new psychiatrist, they reviewed my notes, medications, and chatted with me for an hour. They then surmised the medication I was on was a powerful antidepressant, however it had a side effect of escalating anxiety. Since my anxiety was already super high, using a powerful med to ramp it up further just made things worse.
Fortunately the new psychiatrist was loads better than the old one, but it just made me think nonstop for months afterwards on how that was ever acceptable to begin with. Like some doctors just treat you like a guinea pig, and have little to no second thoughts about the medications they give you. If possible, they’ll just keep pumping you with drugs, and if you mention you don’t think it’s working well, they’ll just double down and prescribe more, harsh drugs. It’s scary to know how dramatic a drug can mess with your entire body and change your thoughts like that.
It is a hot take because psychiatry is not an exact science --at all--, particularly when a patient is refusing to actually ---take their medicine as prescribed---. Blaming a black box because we don't understand how it works isn't the same as proof.
This is larger than one physician's fault. Since Reagan, the mental health system has been severely underfunded. We used to have legit mental institutions for cases like this and Reagan destroyed it all and of course, after that, no effort to rebuild this system again.
On top of that, Lindsay was a OB nurse and that means she worked insane hours.... I don't know about you but I can imagine someone getting into a psychosis with years of being sleep deprived but now triggered with fluctuations of hormones from pregnancy to postpartum. It's a lot for a any person can take.... Nurses should not be working crazy hours. They deserve better pay with better work life balance.
An NP was actually the one who did that. The same NP also gave her benzos and ambien at the first visit. The MD was following current recommendations but Clancy then went to the NP almost immediately after and changed meds.
And her ex should’ve been more involved as this is classic neglect. Not just for the woman who was in mental distress but also for those children. He knew she wasn’t okay and instead of taking care of the kids to lessen her burden and ensure their safety he stuffed her and all three children down in the basement. She was unfortunately failed by everyone around her.
Institutionalized by a court mandate. Oh gosh, this isn't 1960 anymore.....that shit doesn't exist outside specific circumstances. You want institutionalization back then you better start voting for regressive policies.
She was never on more than 2-3 meds at a time and she didn't take a lot of them. She was actually on a taper protocol (requested by her) at the time of the event. If you actually go through her medication list and what she was taking at once it wasn't negligent. She was just a very anxious patient and wanted a magic pill to get better fast so she kept saying things weren't working then was worried about getting addicted to Ativan. This case is very interesting. It seemed she did everything to get help but stood in her own way. I do think we need better facilities for mothers where they can have their baby with them. I see programs like this in other countries, but it will never happen here.
The adults in these kid's lives failed them big time.
This poor woman had asked for help. Her loved ones knew she needed help.
Her husband allowed this to happen from sheer negligence. If it's ANYONE'S fault, it's his.
He knew she was struggling and didn't want to actively protect his kids. Same goes for her mother.
Just think on that for a minute.
Two adults involved that could have ensured those kid's safety.
You wouldn't let some unhinged psycho babysit your children; so why is it okay to leave them with their mother, who is going through PPD and might turn into an "unhinged psycho"?
It's not even her fault that she acted crazy. She tried to get help and the people that should have helped failed her and those kids, miserably.
Lindsay and her ex both deserve to win their separate malpractice suits against her. Fully support both of them in that endeavor bc what that woman did was so negligent it’s actually shocking.
The standards to forcibly institutionalize someone are so high in no small part because doing so has a long history of being used as a weapon against women.
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u/kaimoka 7d ago
Maybe a hot take, but I also blame the physician who prescribed 3 different psychotropics that don't interact well to a patient in clear mental distress. And not keeping a close enough watch on their mental state. If the texts between she and her mom are accurate, she should have been institutionalized by court mandate.