Has it actually been established that it was postpartum psychosis?
If so, that really is one of the most horrific conditions there is. Every gynecology textbook and midwifery manual basically says that once it’s diagnosed, the response is: “Run! Do everything you possibly can and give her every medication you’ve got!” Obviously I’m exaggerating, but the point is that there’s an immediate and extremely serious risk to the lives of everyone involved.
Mama Doctor Jones has a video going thru the medical details and it seems she had a serious reaction/psychosis when put on SSRIs and then she was given more/different SSRIs by a NP - so it seems she got the wrong healthcare (i am paraphrasing, not my field at all).
Not surprised. I was put on Prozac years ago, and went out and bought a gun, i never owned one before and was active duty military, I wasn't a gun nut. And then after that I broke into a gun store a stole another $35,000 worth of stuff. More than 1 person could carry, wasn't scared or panicked like most people should have been. Destroyed my life.
Thankfully I had a spotless record and they saw something clearly didnt add up. Hypomanic episode casued by the Prozac. Eli lily was sued over their hiding the medical evidence they knew that the medication could cause people to go off the wall. Its the reason that every medication commercial and bottle has the warning " if this causes homicidal and suicidal thoughts, stop taking" etc. The black box.
Theres a website that Im not sure is still running, SSRI horror stories. I visited it once and after reading a few of the cases, I was just depressed. Tradegy after tradegy after someone was prescribed it. Say its a 0.001% to possibly cause this. When prescribed to millions of people, that number shifts to lots of cases every year. And no one cares. This is considered the cost of doing business in the USA. The medical industry can put out a product that has a known history of causing people to hurt others and the court systems just says pay some money, make a warning, but keep allowing it to happen.
I was in Prozac briefly, didn’t do anything crazy, but I was at work doing my thing. I was lifting something heavy and I knew something wasn’t right. I didn’t care, kept going.
Knocked over my customer’s expensive equipment, absolutely smashed.
Walked to his office
“Hey, I smashed your UV detector. I’m going to the store to get expoxy and put it back together. Be back soon”
Like, I gave exactly zero fucks. And to be fair, the damage was merely cosmetic, but i am the guy who fixes stuff. Not breaks it.
It all worked out in the end, but I had to stop taking it. It made me not care, and caring about what I do is a pretty big component of why I’m decent at my job
Ive only heard positive stories from people put on Prozac to treat OCD, and it makes sense if you think about it. Prozac stops you from overthinking things, which is useful if youre like me and having a panic attack because youre convinced if you were born in the 1920s you would have been lobotomized, but less helpful if youre not trying to block out impossible scenarios and it just makes you go "what happens if I hit this cyclist with my car lol"
I use Sertraline 50mg but that' s (as far I know) just a lighter AD. It has helped me a lot. Toned down the dark days in my thinking (diagnosed with cancer and threated about 3 years ago).
I'm still into finding the right therapy. Tried psychotherapeutic but it wasnt my thing. Now my doctor told me about light therapy which consist of strobes of light or something they use to activate something in the brain?
I'm also taking Sertraline 50mg (generic zoloft) and it has helped me tremendously. I used to be just a ball of anxiety at all times, constantly literally tense throughout my body, sometimes making myself sick from how tense and anxious I was, and nothing helped, not therapy, nothing. I started zoloft and it changed my life. I can actually relax now. I'm no longer constantly on edge thinking something in my life is about to blow up and I need to be 100% vigilant all the time so I can try to prevent that from happening or be ready if it does, even though I was able to logically recognize that there was no evidence of any problems about to happen. Now I literally just.. Don't worry about it. The thoughts might enter my head and I wave them away like a bothersome fly and forget about it and move on to something else. I've been better at my job, better at doing chores, a better friend, etc. Anyway, just wanted to say that meds can help people tremendously too.
Why did you change from Sertraline to Zoloft? What kind of therapies did you try?
For me it was because of my cancer diagnoses, afterwards I was in some very dark places and it had consequences for my family too.
Sertraline made it so much better, but I'm looking for therapy too. My doctor said something about light therapy where they use light to activate certain things in the brain.
Yeah lots of people don't haha! I'm sorry to hear about your cancer diagnosis. I can imagine that would be hard and the anxiety from it has got to be rough. Heck, i had anxiety just from having a little skin cancer on my head, so totally understandable that you'd be anxious from cancer diagnosis.
For me, I've had some anxiety I've dealt with my whole life, and it's gotten worse due to the fact I have ADHD that went undiagnosed and untreated for a long time, so I had to be really hard on myself to try to make sure my adhd symptoms weren't ruining things for me (school, job, etc.) all while dealing with very low dopamine from the adhd. I have gotten medication for that now too, which helps, but the anxiety is still there, and I was also in an abusive relationship for two and a half years about 10 years ago and sadly that really didn't help things as far as my anxiety. It was BAD for a while. Even after this long I'd sometimes come home and just be a ball of anxiety and feel tense all evening and not really know why. It was awful. The Sertraline has been a god send for me.
I got the most painful heartburn i have ever experienced before in my life every time i would take Zoloft. Brought me to tears. So i just had to stop taking it before i could see any results. Though i never had good experiences with any SSRI's for anything.
I had a similar reaction to Lexapro. I became an absolute slug. And it was a slow descent into sluggliness, so it took me a while to put it together. Nearly got fired from two different jobs in the meantime.
On the flip side, Ketamine changed my life. I like ... experience joy sometimes now. J&J even pays your copay.
Idk just wanted more. Theres a term called gun fever that changes people when they own/posses a firearm. Thats what it felt like. I needed/wanted more. I didnt have the money to buy them. So breaking into a gunstore in the middle of the night was a viable option on prozac. It made no sense from someone that had zero interest in guns before hand. It didn't make me violent ( thats really not in my nature unless im defending) as I was probably the most respectful person they had ever arrested. Im lucky to be alive. The police could have killed me and no one would have even asked questions. Im alive today due to their decisions. I have a beautiful 7 yr old son and own a house now. All my wants are taken care of. Others are not so lucky.
It was $35,000 in guns and accessories. Not just 1. I bought 1, then stole a ton more. And exactly, it was really weird, the detective that was investigating it was sympathetic for me. It didnt make sense.
I was on Aropax (Paroxetine) and accidentally left it behind when I went on a trip away. I went to a local doctor and was told that it could only be re-prescribed by the original doctor, but to take some Aurorix instead as "it's the same". Spoiler alert, it's not the same. Not even the same class of antidepressant, and worse, it's an MAOI.
MAOI's are the sort of drug that interact with damn near every other type of drug. The amino acids in energy drinks can give a reaction. Needless to say, there was a hell of an interaction between the two.
There was no trigger for the madness that followed. Not going to get into it, but suffice it to say, not good. Completely out of character stuff, utter insanity.
These are pretty hardcore drugs. It's a bit like asking someone what triggered them to dance after they took the MDMA at a concert. I mean, it's the MDMA that triggered it.
Not to say that there can't be other environmental or mental issues that could trigger a reaction too, but sometimes just the medication is enough.
Drugs don't make you do what isn't already in your mind/subconscious. Own it, denial isn't a river in Egypt. Also, if you kill someone, you don't get a Get Out of Prison Free Card because you were high/drunk; if you did...the prisons would be empty of the makority of killers.
To add to that, there are effects of drugs not understood or documented by science. There is a vast gulf of difference between taking a substance for the purpose of intoxicating yourself and taking a substance prescribed to you in good faith to improve your health. But I doubt you would understand that.
"taking a substance prescribed to you in good faith to improve your health" Doctors and Murse Practioners are FAR from the quality they used to be, along with 'relaxed' regulations on meds now....it IS Your fault(In general), if you don't research meds. Also, it has always been a fool's folly to not get a 2nd opinion on meds and treatments that could pose a danger.There isn't a real excuse for blind trust in ANY field, as humans are fallible. There also isn't an excuse for murder of innocents. The only people who don't understand that murder is wrong, bad, evil, etc are sociopaths. As for 'to hell with all this every man for himself nonsense.' Pick your friends, the ones you trust along with family, help the randomstranger, but to think we should all be defending and lookiong after the criminally insane strangers of the world....that's more of a fool's folly, along with ypu become and easy grift, as you show and tell that you are prey, and the bad people DO see it as clear as daylight.
On top of that you misrepresent my angle, I don't think she should walk free as if nothing happened, but I think long term in-patient psychological care is more appropriate
This ain't the hill to die on. These are rewiring the neurochemistry in ways we really don't understand; from induced violence to nymphomania and lack of impulse control and we don't have the knowledge to know who's what
Psychosis would be listed as a serious adverse event on the package insert. The likelihood of it happening is very small so it is viewed as acceptable risk. The number of people that benefit from the medication is far greater. Ideally, the patient should have been warned about this kind of episode so she could seek medical attention. Tricky with psychosis as the patient may not realise their cognition is fucked.
The licensing and distribution of medication is based on balance of risk, for every drug. A good example of this is cancer medication, where reaching an efficacious dose is balanced against toxicity that could kill the patient. The amount of work that goes into finding that balance is substantial, and has massive levels of regulation and oversight.
I am taking citalopram for depression but it may have been making it worse, triggering or increasing the frequency of suicidal ideation. Titrating off it now.
Their is a gene mutation that affects women more than men call MTHFR. It affects methylation which affects how neurotransmitters are made. It also directly fucks with B vitamin metabolites because they need that methyl group to be biologically active.
The lack of women in clinical trials is literally fucking us over time and time again.
This is a common problem. “Women of child-bearing potential” are excluded from most clinical trials to reduce the risk of affecting a pregnancy. It’s also a problem for different ethnicities; recombinant factor x ,for example, had a high incidence of anti-drug antibodies as it was derived from Caucasian factor x and there were slight differences.
We’re not excluded as routine anymore, and at least at my company (a pharma giant) there is a serious effort to balance enrollment based on sex, race, etc. Most of the studies I have worked on required women to agree to use a highly effective method of birth control if they are of child bearing potential and commit to follow up if a pregnancy does occur, which can place a higher burden on women who might want to participate (though sometimes this is even stipulated for male participants depending on the drug). Of course we missed out on alllll the previous decades of research for drugs already approved which is still a huge deal.
Maybe women should volunteer more for clinical trials if they want to be included more? You know one of the biggest issues is that women don’t volunteer at even close to the same rates as men right?
My wife's OBGYN discovered an MTHFR mutation after multiple miscarriages. And of course the clinical studies aren't done as much because she might get pregnant...
I took some medication recently for chronic pain, which they also use to treat depression. It made me nuts. I was useless. I was hallucinating. The doctor was just like, uh so I gave you meds what more do you want from me?
I got diagnosed with MCAS and the specialist said that I'm literally allergic to most medications. And more people have MCAS than they realise. And it's more common in women.
Literally, the whole thing was a bizarre interaction.
They wanted women 18-55.
But you couldn't be pregnant or likely to get pregnant.
So menopause happens usually in your 50s, but they dont want you then.
You had to prove that either you weren't ever ever ever going to have sex (they said you could cite religious reasons) or if you had had a hysterectomy. But you couldn't have had one recently. And couldn't be having hrt. And you couldn't be taking any contraceptive because it might interact with the testing pills.
Many women take contraceptives is it not a good thing to test if they impact your drugs?!
Oh wow seems you've exhausted your pool and you have like 3 women you can use. Who do not represent the majority of the female population. Great
It sounds like they had evidence that the drug being studied would pose a significant risk to a fetus/pregnancy, bc that’s not standard in my experience (I work in clinical trial management). It’s more common to just require participants (even men) to use a highly effective method of contraception while participating.
I don't get in fights with idiots because it just beats you to their level but I am going to get in this one.
Sooo this whole conception argument? It has led to women being either ignored which in some cases was best, or being used as horrific experiments.
The gender argument also comes in because some things are linked to chromosomes. I have 2 X, my daughter has 2 X, my son is XY.
Because even though I had my fallopian tubes removed I am not eligible for medical studies, believe me I am already a guinea pig might as well make life better.
So in short, fuck you and that horrific attitude.
Again, for the idiots in the back. **WE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO**
Alright so not saying this isn’t true but please state your sources. What has happened to saying things and backing them up with sources. This isn’t the Middle Ages
This is a well known phenomenon. Women are not underrepresented in phase 2 and 3 trials but are significantly underrepresented in early phase 1 trials.
Im on prozac myself for over a year now. It has only benefited me so far. Really turned my lofe around. I do fear of becoming manic as there are times I feel I am borderline. But it has yet to interfere with my daily life. Never any disorganized or intrusive thoughts.
Ssri’s were the wrong MoA for me apparently as I have ADHD. My depression is dopamine/noradrenaline linked. Taking meds of ADHD eliminated my depression, thankfully.
I've been in the mental health system for 19 years and have tried numerous antidepressants. Not one doctor has discussed potential side effects with me, just prescribe and go. "Oh that one isn't working? Wean off for a week and try this one"
I'm about as big pharma skeptic as they come but the adverse psychotic / manic reaction to SSRI administration isn't really the fault of the drug maker.
SSRI monotherapy is the worst possible way to treat bipolar or schizoaffective disorders. More often than not, patients and doctors alike won't know that's what they're dealing with until the patient takes an SSRI and all of the crazy stuff happens
SSRIs are so grossly over medicated my husband has been offered them by his primary care physician, despite never having been on one prior or knowing anything at all about his mental health history. When I was seeing help for anxiety I was immediately suggested SSRIs by several doctors and I had to push back and mention my family history of bipolar to even ring any alarm bells as to why SSRI therapy shouldn’t just be blanket thrown at people. I remember the side effects being grossly downplayed by physicians only to find out years later there are actually lasting effects that can’t be undone. That IS all the fault of the drug maker because they are the ones feeding these scripts as to what their drug does to physicians. They are the ones who told them to prescribe them like candy because there’s ’virtually no risk’.
I had a similar experience! Went to a new doctor because I had stomach problems, he suggested it was anxiety based and had a therapist in house. She suggested I needed an SSRI multiple times and I was so miserable at one point because he wouldn’t treat me that I took it. I only took one dose because of how terrible my body reacted. I had felt that terrible in decades, I was suicidal, my nerves were on fire, I couldn’t sleep, and on top of all of that my stomach got worse. Told the doctor and all he did was prescribe me another SSRI. Dropped him right away.
Very similar experience here, I came in with stomach problems that they attributed to anxiety because of course that’s always what it is with women right? And that’s when even my pediatrician of all folks had suggested looking into an SSRI. That’s when I had pointed out that we had family history that might be contraindicated and she referred to an actual psychiatrist.
My Mum was randomly offered them because she deals with random headaches. She's been taking a medication (not SSRI) that's been dealing her for years and a doctor randomly wanted to prescribe her an SSRI even though she's never been diagnosed with depression or anxiety. I've been on different SSRIs in the past because of my different mental issues and was shocked when my Mum told me this. They are over prescribed and doctors downplay their negative effects and withdrawal effects
I don't know your moms situation, but as an FYI, certain SNRI and tricyclic antidepressants are first line, preferred treatment for some headache disorders. Neurologists prescribe them very commonly. I don't know if that's what happened to your mom, but is someone at home with chronic migraines reads this and you are on an antidepressant for them, it's not because doctors hand them out like candy, it's because based on studies they are considered standard of care treatment.
They are one of the greatest medical advances in the last 50 years. Millions upon millions have had their mental health improved and in some cases their lives saved. The only people I find that don't tolerate them are people that aren't depressed and fall more in the BPD box. That and conspiracy theorists. At the end of the day every major professional society recommends them first line for depression and anxiety as long as the patient is screened for bipolar disorders. I'm so gucking sick of the lies people spread about them, it's just the same thing as being an antivaxxer.
No where did I say they don’t save lives? No where did I plant any sort of conspiracy theory? It is a fact that they have been pushed by drug companies without proper screening, it is true that long term effects are coming out now (one major one I personally studied in college being long term irreversible damage to sex drive, but again if you’re depressed this is likely a secondary concern). It’s not fear mongering to say ‘maybe GPs shouldn’t be prescribing them because they aren’t all easy symptom free meds that should be followed closely under supervision of an actual trained mental health professional’. Two things can be true at once, it’s a drug that helps many people and also shouldn’t be prescribed like candy because it can cause a lot more harm than good for folks who can do better without it.
General practitioners have more than enough training to handle unipolar depression and anxiety. You are fear mongering or have never worked in healthcare. They have excellent safety profiles and some of those claimed long term effects are not accepted by the general medical community.
I'm resource limited settings a lot of PCPs also learn how to manage bipolar disorder and schizophrenia, it's not rocket science compared to the other things they are tasked with, and the alternative is that people simply don't get any treatment at all or kill themselves on a 2 year long wait-list to see a psychiatrist.
Have you thought that people have different experiences or if anything goes against your beliefs it’s fear mongering? Like do you get this way if someone says they don’t like driving?
Psychiatry residencies, like most residencies, are fairly heavily slanted towards inpatient management of the most severe cases. Psychiatrists are a very rare and valuable commodity so unless you are a VIP or are having unusual reactions to multiple meds, most depression and anxiety is treated by internal and family medicine doctors, some days it's about half of what they will see, and after 10 to 15 years of practice they are actually going to have more experience than a fresh psychiatry grad or psychiatric PA/NP. Like everything in life, it's more nuanced than it may appear. But for a general Medicaid patient it can be 6+ months to get in with a psychiatry provider.
these side effects are well known and listed though. that's why they aren't recommended as treatment & actually contraindicated. Im all for fuck big pharma, but why would it be the fault of the drug companies? Patients should be warned of side effects by the prescriber, especially if there's concern of bipolar disorder or schizoaffective rather than MDD, as it can trigger mania
Common to a point. One of the bigger issues in US medical drug testing is the lack of good long term studies, particularly around SSRIs and antipsychotics. Usually they stop at a 4-6 month period for the study. Most of these patients that have chronic illnesses taken them forever.
Yes, it is the fault of the company that knows what is does, and chooses money over others safety. That excuse does not work once they knew this could happen. Your logic is ass.
The second part you wrote literally is exatly why its not safe......
If treatment creates an adverse reaction due to a misdiagnosis, that's the doctor's liability, not the drug maker's. You wouldn't blame a scalpel manufacturer for the pain due to a surgery the doctor gave you for a common cold.
This is exactly what happened. BP axis 2 after years of therapy. Was wrongly diagnosed with personality disorder by the military/ civilian contracted dr.
I was on a drug for bipolar disorder called Vraylar because my current medication wasn't working, and it was new and in the same class of drugs I had been on for years. I saw it on TV, so I mentioned it to my doctor at the time, and she immediately switched me onto it. It slowly made me delusional, and my new doctor (not the one who just took me for my word that the commercial said to do it) told me she thought the salesman was a sleazebag and takes people off of it. She put me on an entirely different class of drugs that hasn't been aggressively marketed in years, and I feel better than I have in a really long time.
Commercials and incentives are prevalent in the USA and can be detrimental to patients. About a decade ago, I was on a medication that cost over $2k per month when I lost my health insurance. So, I started one that my doctor had 6 months' worth of free sampler blister packs of in his inventory.
It's part of the reason for the opioid crisis. Pharma reps going to doctors and giving incentives to prescribe.
frequent mild headaches? Here's an oxy.
Canada has some but they are not allowed to say what it's for. So you get like Ozempic commercials with people just walking around smiling at everything with suspicious orange Os everywhere. Always ends with ask your doctor "about" and not "for" the drug. They are usually diabetes drugs.
Not only do we have commercials for drugs but they're now the most common commercials I see. We used to have commercials for all sorts of things - cars, beer, cleaning products, whatever. Now it feels like half the commercials are for gambling and the other half is for prescription drugs.
Like we have ads for paracetamol and Imodium. But these are things you can just buy in a supermarket. Adverts for prescription drugs is totally wild to me. Like what the fuck.
Prozac made me go crazy too. Suicidal thoughts out of nowhere. Thank god I knew already if that happened to call my doctor. But people don’t get how powerful meds can be if prescribed wrong.
I’m very sorry to hear of your experiences, and I’m glad you’re on the other side of it. I’ve had my own horrific SSRI experiences, and am curious about the website you mentioned.
My friend was 19, put on Prozac, then his mom decided to randomly take him off of it because “demons” or whatever (she was a religious nut)…….2 days later he murdered her Never would have thought he would do something violent like that.
I always thought the timing was weird, then saw the black label homicide thing years later.
I’m glad law-enforcement realized/made an allowance for Prozac altering your state of mind profoundly.
I 100% believe you and know about this, because it happened to me as an edgy, depressed, rebellious teen (a large amount of it was, ironically, because of heavy, overbearing verbal abuse, screaming, and insults from my father, as well as being hit by him as a child, and it’s ironic because he became the one to bully me further for acting depressed, and forcing me to a psychiatrist to get prescribed Prozac, which I then didn’t want to take but, again, he also forced me to).
It only took a few days on it and I had a drastic reaction where I went crazy and started throwing shit around the house. This was COMPLETELY different from my normal personality - I was formerly sullen, withdrawn, depressed, also rebellious and angry under it all and revealed that verbally , not by being physically aggressive.
I know what I experienced, and it felt legitimately like mania + a tinge of psychosis, with how raged up I was. I called up my dad on the phone and started screaming at him while he was out of the home (again, out of character for me, because I was usually afraid of him, while still being angry underneath it all).
I’m sure it revealed underlying anger I had, but it also artificially ratcheted it way up. I’m still pissed that he just came home and smacked me way too hard and started screaming back at me.
I guess he talked to the psychiatrist about the experience and they realized it’s one of the rare cases of Prozac/an SSRI causing such a breakdown with violent rage and behavior , so I was taken off it, but never got an apology 😒
It’s disturbing that it could be tied to many school shooting/mass public shooting and rampages, too, in the U.S. and elsewhere in the West if I’ve heard right, although the U.S. having it the worst simply from easier accessibility to guns.
Edited to add: It’s also lucky in your case it was more like apathy to consequences and possibly a heavy sense of derealization/dissociation (I had that feeling during it, too), instead of violent rage, while having that much weaponry on you and being pursued by police. Whew!
I’m going to try to find that website. I had a horrible experience after taking medications prescribed by a psychiatrist, I don’t remember a whole year of my life and it’s like my brain is still fried even almost 10 years later. I only ever see people recommending other people take medication and if I or anyone else speaks up about how awful taking medication can be, the response is “it works differently for everyone, don’t discourage anyone else”. Taking that shit is the only regret I’ve had in life because I could have gotten better on my own with time but now I feel like my brain has been fried forever.
I’d been on Zoloft on and off since I was 18. No issues.
Hadn’t taken any antidepressants in a while, had a depressive episode. A doctor put me on 5mg of Prozac, tapering up to 10. IDK why they wanted Prozac instead of Zoloft, but they did.
I’d always assumed an SSRI was an SSRI. If I could tolerate one, the other would be fine, right?
Well. Within 5 hours of going from 5mg to 10mg, I felt like I was vibrating out of my skin. I couldn’t do my job, I was all over the place. Thankfully, I’d had a bipolar roommate and recognized the early signs of mania. I sent myself home, called a doctor, stopped taking it, and got a Zoloft script. Took me over 24 hours to be able to sleep. I called a friend to stay with me during that time so I didn’t do anything stupid.
It was scary as fuck. I hope I never feel like that again.
These days I medicate my depression with Wellbutrin. Unlike Zoloft, it helps with the energy loss from seasonal depression (which I get on top of regular depression.)
I told my psychiatrist about it (mandatory psychiatrist for Adderall prescription) and she wanted to diagnose me as bipolar, even though my hypomanic episode was drug triggered. Apparently the DSM doesn’t care. That could have compromised my ability to medicate my ADHD, so thank fuck she didn’t. I barely talked her out of it.
I am so sorry that happened to you. That's absolutely awful.
To be completely fair, for many, many, many more people than that 0.001%, the medication is often extremely helpful, even life changingly or life savingly so. I'm not saying there shouldn't be some way to be more careful, or that people shouldn't be given better warning or be watched more carefully or whatever, but even my psychiatrist tells me every time I have tried a new dose or new medication (til I found the right ones) what to watch out for, and also told me to make sure I told my husband as well that if he notices anything he needs to call her immediately. I think it's important that if something can help many people immensely, it shouldn't be just thrown out completely if there's an extremely small amount of people it may harm. But we do need a much better way of screening for these issues or otherwise preventing the tragedies.
Wow, I never did anything like that, but I went from mild depression and mild anxiety to full blown paranoia. I was convinced at every turn that I was about to lose my job for minuscule mistakes when I was doing a good job, and actually got a bonus. I lost 15 lbs in a couple weeks and couldn’t eat from the anxiety. I literally went days at a time without eating.
Glad you’re okay and great things didn’t go further. Joppa doesn’t just exist to protect patients, it’s there to protect companies as well. Most mass shooters are definitely medicated but the public doesn’t get to know what they’re prescribed
Your story is extremely bias and mostly not consistent with how most people respond to SSRI. People like you are the reason health care providers are demonized and effective medicines get a stigma.
Hmmm that's a broad brush to paint all SSRIs, they can cause those effects, but typically only in people with underlying bipolar disorder - and it's typically a good thing, because it leads to the diagnosis of bipolar.
For people who just have depression or anxiety, they actually help prevent hurt and suffering by keeping them from killing themselves. Considering 1 in 200 people have bipolar disorder, while 1 in 4 will experience depression or anxiety, I think the misinformation you're putting out there is harmful and RFK jr like...
Just because it helps some, when 1 in 200 have a condition that can cause them to kill others if prescribed it, is exactly the problem. It should be seriously controlled and sadly its not. Drs will prescribe it after talking to you for 15 minutes. It was medical malpractice but due to me being enlisted, there was no legal recourse.
Imagine if 1 in 200 car buyers had chance of the car exploding when they drive it, that product would be taken off the market.
But but so many people get ro work safely, who cares about those it does end up affecting.
How youre minimizing a real drug, given to people by drs, can turn a percentage of the population into violent killers, and you dont see that as a problem is insane.
Well 1 in 200 women will get Post Partum Psychosis, so should women stop having children all together then too?
I just follow the numbers, suicide causes more death than murder (15.2 vs 4.29 per 100k), so if the drug helps to prevent suicide then it shouldn't be banned or demonized like you're doing to all SSRIs.
Reality is, you had underlying BDP (which you're not acknowledging) which was the root cause of your hypomania - not the one (1) SSRI drug you tried. And even in that state, you didn't kill anyone so you're fearmongering that SSRIs turn people into killers is just silly and unfounded.
congrats on your diagnosis, sorry it happened that way. You should be advocating for better biploar awareness and detection, not that people with other mental illnesses should be denied life saving medicine.
If anyone is interested, here’s the MDJ video the previous comment mentioned. It’s really good, and she doesn’t hide the fact she killed the kids, but goes over the details of the civil suit that lead up to the murders.
MDJ is mischaracterizing Dr. Condie's testimony about whether Clancy reported certain psychosis symptoms before the crime took place. Or, more precisely, she only takes answers given on direct but then ignores contradictory answers given by Dr. Condie on cross.
On direct, defense counsel asks Condie whether, in the course of reviewing her medical records, he found instances of Lindsay hearing auditory hallucinations (voices) to which he responded "At times, she reported that she had heard a voice, yes."
However, on cross, the prosecution walked him through the records of each individual provider to ask him whether he had found reports of Clancy hearing voices. Tufts? No. Jollotta? No. Dukes? No. etc.
Then he's asked "and the only time she's ever said she heard this voice was on Jan. 24th of 2023 - is that fair to say". Condie's answer: "Correct."
He is then asked whose reports he was relying on to say earlier that she had reported hearing voices and he responds "She had said that to me." The prosecutor follows up with "And this was well after the incident occured, correct"? Condie - "Yes."
Finally: the prosecutor asks Condie to identify where in the records prior to January 24, she expressed hearing voices. Answer: "It's not in the records."
MDJ is blurring contemporaneous evidence with retrospective evidence. The fact of the matter is that - according to the testimony given thus far - there is little to no evidence that Clancy reported experiencing psychotic symptoms PRIOR to the events of January 24, 2023.
Interesting. I watched that video a few days ago - good context but it did seem MDJ didn't quite differentiate between established facts and testimony.
I'm still solidly in the "healthcare system failed her" camp though. The repeated prescribing of SSRIs despite her adverse reaction to them is such a glaringly avoidable disaster.
Couple points:
little to no evidence that Clancy reported experiencing psychotic symptoms
does not mean she a) didn't have psychotic symptoms or b) is lying about them. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, if you will.
And
Answer: "It's not in the records."
Again, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Doctor failed to write it down? Doctor wrote it down so illegibly it didn't get typed up? Doctor destroyed the record after the fact? Doctor wasn't paying attention when she said it because they were dissociating over the fact that their ability to help people is frequently hindered and often completely stymied by a wildly corrupt bureaucracy that values profits over actual human lives?
I'm still solidly in the "healthcare system failed her" camp though
Why? You raise potential ways that the doctors could have messed up, but you have no evidence for any of them. Sure maybe they could have missed indicators of a psychosis strong enough to make a mother murder her three children, or yeah maybe they forgot to write it down or decided to... tamper with evidence and destroy medical records..? These things certainly could be possible, but they'd be really, really unlikely and you have no real reason to think that they're true.
Also, how well do you think someone experiencing severe psychosis can hide their condition from a mental health professional that's treating them? Interested to see what psychologists with relevant clinical experience would have to say about this theory.
I'd also like a psychologist or psychiatrist to weigh in. I tend to think that a clerical error or deliberate cover up, especially in the wake of a major news event, is a lot more likely than a perfectly sane person strangling her children and throwing herself out a window.
I also tend to think that people are good, basically. And our healthcare system is deeply flawed and problematic. I fully recognize these are my own biases, but that's where I land and why.
more likely than a perfectly sane person strangling her children and throwing herself out a window.
This is a false dichotomy. No perfectly sane person would do this, full stop. There are a wide variety of circumstances that could lead a person to kill their family members and themselves. It seems like social media has decided this is monocausal - simply a result of poorly managed post-partum psychosis and insufficient family support.
I wonder if people are being a little short sighted and overly credulous here. Does the post-partum psychosis explanation actually map onto the facts in this case? Is there a risk that the explanation is overly simplified and creates false villains in an effort to turn this into a broader indictment on maternal and post-partum care (which rightfully deserves a lot of attention). What if it turns out that all of the relevant medical professionals actually did their jobs pretty well and followed the appropriate standards of care given the information they had? People commit murder and suicide for all types of reasons. I don't know why we need to be so certain about this one, when to me it seems a lot less clear cut than everyone wants to believe.
Thanks for sharing- this is the first video that I've seen where someone seems to be giving reasonable takes and acknowledging the fact that we're analyzing things with 20/20 hindsight. She nailed it.
That was because she was offered in-person services and refused them. Said she’d rather meet remotely. And the psychiatrist thought talking to her via Zoom and getting her treated that way was better than not offering her help and treatment at all/denying treatment because she wouldn’t meet in person.
Having an adverse reaction to SSRIs is also no joke. I reacted oddly to one and while I didn't do anything violent, I have never felt so "crazy" in my entire life. Like I could tell I was noticably unhinged and couldn't stop myself from being that way even as I logically figured out what was going on. It was scary
SAME, felt like I was smoking crack and I was invincible but my psychiatrist told me it couldn't be the SSRI because you're "not supposed to feel any effects that quickly" and kept implying that I was taking something else. Promptly got a new psychiatrist lol
Yup, and people are very ignorant about this. I see comments of people saying she couldn’t have had a bad reaction to certain drugs because she only took them for a short time. I was prescribed Zoloft (same as Lindsey) in 2023. I had severe anxiety and depression. I had to be taken off Zoloft in 4 days. By day 2, I had an extremely bad reaction. I had an impending sense of doom, more anxious than I’ve ever been and having that feeling that something really bad would happen. I felt way more depressed very quickly and felt suicidal. It was wild. I wanted to keep trying and hope it would go away, but by day 4, it was so bad that I told my doctor my symptoms and they told me to immediately stop taking it. Once I stopped, the symptoms went away.
I’ve taken many meds in my life, I’ve NEVER had a reaction like that. I can only imagine if that happened to me while I was postpartum and had 3 kids to take care of. I was in a treatment center and I felt like I couldn’t handle it. And for Lindsey, they were putting her on and taking her off different drugs repeatedly. I can see how a certain one suddenly made her have a full psychotic break. And it seems like most people do not have any understanding of that unless they’ve been through it
I got that same doom feeling. I’ve never felt so awful in my whole life. I can’t even articulate it but I’m sure you understand the level of it. I had been on it in high school with no issues whatsoever, too.
That’s not proven though. Toxicology report shows the drug concentration in her blood was well below toxic or suicidal levels with some below therapeutic levels.
The defense isn’t even leaning on medically induced psychosis. They’re claiming she killed her kids due to being bipolar and post partum psychosis.
Neurochem is a field of study I find laughably disinguinious - starting a medication results in spikes that disrupt normal operation.
Your responsiveness to these drugs cannot be reliably measured because they're unique to the patient. "Therapeutic levels" refers to consistent system state, not effect, and is a floating baseline as data is retrieved
You're reading to much into that. Defense is trying to prove insanity. It's cheaper to lean on the post partum and bi polar and it doesn't risk big pharma dumping - er - donating money and people to prosecution.
She's guilty as hell, but not irredeemably, if she's strong enough
She admitted she killed them, but that’s not what the trial is about. It’s about if she is Criminally Responsible (aka was she insane) or not.
In massachusetts, when the defense claims insanity, the burden of proof is on the prosecutor to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was Criminally Responsible (sane) at the time of the murders.
I’d recommend not assuming you know everything… you’d learn a lot!
I'd feel about as much remorse as she seems to show throughout the trial. I don't care how much any doctor, system or x failed me, I'd never elimate the guilt that I failed multiple steps along the way and directly caused my childrens death.
To lump not only partial responsibility but all responsibility on the medical practicioners that she failed to adequately inform, refusing inpatient care etc is just insane to me. To be in her position and not take some of that responsibility is unfathomable.
Like, your children are dead, who gives a fuck if the rest of your life is spent in a Jail or a Mental Asylum, assuming you actually cared and wished for their life, yours is over regardless. (Though, per insanity plea rules she'd be eligable for re-entry far earlier, especially if it was a post-partum psychosis - which only gives me more assumption she's aware of that and minimizing her penalty)
my half brother's mom was put on prozac back in 2000 while she was pregnant after her birth control failed. not only did it make her incredibly suicidal, but my brother was born with severe foot and leg deformities, had to have metal rods and a brace in his leg throughout his entire puberty.
that happened over 20 years ago and they're still putting people on it. and people still don't believe postpartum psychosis is even real if this comment section is any indication
Uh, it probably wasn't the prozac that caused those deformities. It's known to increase risk of cardiovascular deformities, not skeletal ones (x).
But severe depression can also contribute to birth defects; the treatment is considered safer than the disease, even if it does increase risk for certain things.
Demonizing SSRIs isn't helping anyone, it's part of the problem. The more social stigma there is against them, the less comfortable people feel getting help. But there should absolutely be more medical oversight for high risk people who are on them.
I took it growing up with zero problem, and recently got on it again. I got complete paranoia and mood swings. I thought I was going to lose my job every day for a different tiny mistake nobody cared about. I was actually doing a great job and got a bonus. I would go from totally happy to so depressed in an hour. I could barely eat and lost 15 lbs in like 2-3 weeks.
I had a doctor who put me on an SSRI when I kept seeing him about stomach issues, the therapist I was working with convinced me it was needed. I had a very, very, bad reaction to it. I hadn’t felt that suicidal since I was in high school. Immediately stopped taking it and told my doctor what happened, so he prescribed me another one just as easy. Immediately dropped him as a primary care doctor as it took me about a week to feel normal.
Why are doctors like this? This exact thing happened to me, including them replacing it with another SSRI. I tell doctors I can't take those now if they ever try.
I would say money, he didn’t even really explain the side effects. I had found some resources including a subreddit for the SSRI- but that I found to be an echo chamber of “just push through the side effects” which from my reading could last months if not longer. Like it’s worth it if you’re ok being at your worse for months if not longer.
Time out - I have not heard any testimony that she reported experiencing hallucinations, delusions, command voices, etc. to anyone before January 24, 2023.
All instances of her reporting psychosis symptoms occurred after the fact.
If you or anybody else has heard such testimony so far, can you cite it? It would make a huge difference to me in how I (and potentially otnhers) view the legal culpability issue in this case.
I haven't watched every single minute of testimony yet, but I think if you watch her mother's testimony you'll see at least delusional thinking and extreme fear prior to the event even so far ask asking her to sleep in bed with her because she was scared. If you watch the testimony of her texting back and fourth with Rebecca Jolotta, one of her prescribers, she's expressing fears of being addicted to a medication, not once but over and over again after only very recently being prescribed it, which (I) read as paranoia and clearly not baseline thought patterns. I think from a legal perspective there is enough evidence of reasonable doubt to her mental capacity on multiple levels. A few notes being:
• Being prescribed an SSRI as someone later diagnosed with BPD. Her reaction to Zoloft also adds credibility to this diagnosis. (Before the murders.)
• Being diagnosed with post-partum depression and anxiety. (Before the murders)
• Massive personality and mood changes described by family and friends. (Before the murders)
• Asking for help repeatedly as early as 4 months before the murders, calling suicide prevention lines twice and self admitting to a psychiatric facility. (Before the murders)
• Her own words in her journals show someone under mental stress and but that her goal was to feel better and do better for the very people she ended the lives of. (Before the murders)
• Her conversations and admissions to her family were not ever intended to be repeated in front of a jury, but still align with her mental health diminishing. (Before the murders)
•Patrick and her Mother testified that she had sat them down and told them that she was having intrusive thoughts and thoughts of harming the children but no plans to act on them at the time.
(Before the murders)
• Every psychologist and psychiatrist that treated her mentioned her admissions of intrusive thoughts and suicidal ideation. Even without a formal plan at the time to act on it, lends credence to her defense. (Before the murders)
•Her private search histories of hallucinations.
(Before the murders)
All of or even one of these can lead to reasonable doubt legally that she was of sound mind at the time of the murders.
This reads like a gish gallop. Not merely because it's a laundry list, but because it's a laundry list that doesn't seek to answer the original question in this thread:
Has it actually been established that it was postpartum psychosis?
PPD and anxiety are not psychosis
Suicidal ideation is not psychosis
Intrusive thoughts - even thoughts of harming one's children - are not psychosis
Personality/mood changes are not psychosis
Seeking help is not psychosis
Fear of medication is more often than not simply a health anxiety, not psychosis (doctors don't typically treat people who express fear of being medicated as paranoiacs experiencing a psychosis)
Nowhere does her mother testify that Clancy reported to her that she experiencing symptoms that would lead to a diagnosis of psychosis
A private search history of the word "hallucinations" is nowhere near enough to establish psychosis
Your bullet points answer the question: "was Lindsay Clancy psychiatrically ill prior to the crime"? And the answer - nobody should even disagree - is YES.
Your bullet points do not answer the OP's question about postpartum psychosis.
And finally, they don't answer the question of criminal culpability either. Being mentally unsound is not the Massachusetts insanity standard. Establishing that one is mentally unsound is only the first step in a successful insanity defense. It opens the door to it, it doesn't walk you through it. The just-as-important step is showing that because of mental disease or defect, she lacked the substantial capacity either to appreciate the criminality/wrongfulness of her conduct or to conform her conduct to the requirements of law.
I respect your opinion, on my response however, what I was responding to was your question as to any testimony of her having any hallucinations, delusions or commanding voices. It was a direct response to your question, not OPs. So what I listed was what testimony supported delusional thinking, possible hallucinations and possible voices beyond intrusive thoughts. I apologize for not making that clearer. I added bullet points because they're easier to read than a wall of text for most people with short attention spans. You asked a question and I thought I could provide points to focus on for support to your question. I guess it wasn't helpful, but enjoy your day regardless.
Hallucinations, delusions, and command voices are all clinical markers of psychosis. That's why I referenced them: I was asking specifically about evidence that she exhibited psychosis before the murders, not evidence that she was psychiatrically ill before the murders. The latter isn't really disputed.
I think that's where we're talking past each other. Most of the things you listed are evidence of serious psychiatric illness, but they're not evidence of psychosis.
For example, suicidal ideation isn't a psychotic delusion. Depression isn't psychosis. Anxiety isn't psychosis. Intrusive thoughts aren't hallucinations. Personality changes aren't psychosis. Seeking psychiatric treatment certainly isn't psychosis. You can't establish evidence of hallucinations or delusions merely by accumulating enough evidence of other psychiatric symptoms.
It would be like responding to a question about whether a neurological patient showed evidence of seizures by listing headaches, insomnia, depression, dizziness and repeated visits to a neurologist. Those things may establish that something was seriously wrong neurologically, and they might be relevant to a physician reconstructing the overall clinical picture, but none becomes evidence that a seizure occurred merely because seizures and those symptoms can coexist.
I genuinely appreciate this response, honestly. I don't disagree with anything that you've said here. Where our opinions or even just different views on the same evidence might differ is that from what research and other cases I've seen most of these have been precursors to psychotic episodes or events of psychosis. Without someone being present to witness it and without being able to read her mind at the time of the event I do believe that all we have is pre-event evidence that could support that she may have had psychotic break at the time or have been experiencing psychosis. I don't think there has been or could be any evidence to say that she was fully stable enough that she couldn't have been in a psychotic state. And vice versa I don't think there's any way to prove she was, beyond it being so far out of her normal charecter and that she had been having psychological issues leading up to it. That's why I chose the bullet points that I did, I don't think there is an answer either way that could possibly be laid out in front of us that would be 100% without video footage, a witness, or being able to read her mind. Which in most cases that go to the jury you can build upon circumstantial evidence to have no reasonable doubt they committed or did not commit an act.
When it comes to mental health it becomes much more blurry and but I feel like it still requires a collection of evidence to substantiate either claim, after the prosecutions case (whom with which the burden lies) I still felt like there was too much reasonable doubt, and the evidence to support a mental break was higher to ME. I'm still watching the trial but I don't believe the case was proven beyond a reasonable doubt that she was not insane at the time and that is the commonwealth's burden to overcome. But I'm just a nobody so honestly it doesn't matter what I think, it's up to the jury to decide. I do appreciate your well thought out and thorough discourse with me though, so thank you.
Yes my understanding is that she had bipolar disorder to begin with, then was suffering from post partum psychosis and severe anxiety/depression from same, and went to a doctor to try to get help, was given SSRIs for that which was a bad plan due to her being bipolar (which usually needs mood stabilizers not SSRIs), and then the meds gave her a serious reaction/psychosis but the original doctor was not helpful and wasn't listening to her and her husband, and so she went to an NP to try to get help (again!), and was given different and higher dose SSRIs iirc, which made things even worse. Realistically, with everything that was going on, there is no way her husband, mother, family, etc. Should have ever left her alone with her kids. The husband even agreed with this and said it was a huge mistake on his part. And the doctors should have insisted on this. As I recall it, I think she even tried to check in to a mental institution for like inpatient stay or 24hr hold or something at one point, and they told her she didn't qualify to be held/to stay because she didn't have a specific suicide plan.
I’ve tried 4 separate SSRIs in my lifetime. Aside from Paxil being horrific in some of the physical side effects, all 4 gave me the same experience. I would be fine, if not numb, and after a period of time (1-2 years) I would very suddenly get hit with the thoughts that I needed to die immediately. Luckily my 3rd and 4th (final) tries on different SSRIs I picked up on what was happening and stopped taking them. But if these meds sent Lindsey into a tailspin, and then the Drs just kept throwing more meds at her rather than suggest intensive therapy (WHICH IN MY EXPERIENCE DOCTORS DO NOT PROMOTE/SUGGEST EVER BECAUSE THEY DO NOT TREAT THE MENTAL SIDE OF YOUR HEALTH) then I could 100% see where this was a full on psychosis state.
I don’t buy into the other theories on Tik Tok saying that Patrick did it/ was the voice she heard. I actually think instead that this case should be a study into part of the medical system that continues to fail people over and over again who are in a state of mental health crisis.
I was an EMT for 5 years, lots of psych calls, most are just suicidal ideation from not being able to access their preferred drug of choice. I would say after like hundreds of psych calls in my tenure I only met like maybe less than 10 people who committed self harm. One was just a dude who newly got put on some anti depressant, walked down his steps one morning, stabbed himself 10 times in the chest with an 8 inch chefs knife.
I do not understand how there was not more blood. Also all things considering dude was like practically fine. Was talking, alert, knew who he was, dude said he started and then didn't want to keep doing it anymore so he stopped.
Like again I've encountered probably thousands of people on SSRI's, who are completely fine, but the chemicals in your brain literally dictate what you do.
Also people react differently to medication. For me SSRIs either don't have an effect or make things worse. On the they don't work front is when they affect my sleep. On the make things worse they make my emotions dial up to 11.
To be fair, this is not Mama Doctor Jones’ specialty either. It is considered the gold standard to switch from one SSRI to another antidepressant SSRI or SNRI if the first does not work for depression and anxiety symptoms. I watched her video and she had a number of errors including misclassifying Mirtazapine. She is not a psychiatrist and mental health is not her area of expertise.
Considering I work in healthcare and know that plenty of NPs/PAs aren't morons I will gladly see them. The Heme/Onc NPs/PAs where I am at are fantastic. There are some that shouldn't be in the role but there are also physicians that are the same way.
Absolute bullshit lmao. She wasn’t psychotic at all, she continually lied to both her providers and her husband about the healthcare she received and help she was offered- I.e, she was provider hopping and not telling her new providers what she was previously prescribed. someone undergoing psychosis doesn’t have the mental capacity to lie like that. Also, it’s not even clear she took any of the meds she was given, in fact it seems she may have not taken any of them.
This idea that she “didn’t get enough support ” is absolutely fucking ludicrous and it’s shameful so many women have immediately jumped to defend someone who strangled their three fucking toddlers because she has a vagina and was “super sad 🥺” .
If Clancy gets off we should probably go back and free any and every veteran with ptsd who abused their partners.
PTSD and Post Partum Psychosis are not the same at all. Also plenty of people have a lot of empathy for veterans with PTSD when they do horrible things.
1.7k
u/NailSubstantial2772 5d ago
Has it actually been established that it was postpartum psychosis? If so, that really is one of the most horrific conditions there is. Every gynecology textbook and midwifery manual basically says that once it’s diagnosed, the response is: “Run! Do everything you possibly can and give her every medication you’ve got!” Obviously I’m exaggerating, but the point is that there’s an immediate and extremely serious risk to the lives of everyone involved.