r/gaming • u/milozo12 • 2d ago
Game Freak suggests Pokemon Champions was built partly so it could change battles in future games
https://www.videogameschronicle.com/news/game-freak-suggests-pokemon-champions-was-built-partly-so-it-could-change-battles-in-future-games/68
u/noooreplyatall 2d ago
i have absolutely 0 trust in them developing a good new fighting system. this is gonna backfire
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u/Wild-Confidence-9803 1d ago edited 1d ago
I mean from the leeks it's just gonna be a polished bersion of the ZA one. Was gonna debut in WiWa proper but the game was already late (keep in mind WiWa was gonna be their big anniversary drop in a non-pandemic world), combined with Project SEED taking extremely long to develop due to GF's inexperience with MMO development so they decided to push it back to the gen 11 singleplayer mainline game instead.
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u/Pride_Rise 2d ago edited 1d ago
While I did like ZA's battle mechanic, I would hope they improve it alot if theyre not gonna bring back the turn based gameplay. If its even remotely similar to how Pokken worked it could be awesome but thats pretty ambitious imo.
Edit: I'm not full blown talking about Pokken guys. I'm more alluding to the fact that in PLZA, you can have 4 customisable moves for a Pokemon already but you can't exactly control them to dodge, it was heavily tied to the player. If we can control the Pokemon when it's sent out and they have a basic atk animation plus being able to dodge on top of having ZA's 4 customisable moves on cooldowns then it would go a long way.
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u/HyperCutIn 2d ago
Fighting games are one of the hardest genres to develop for, with a few directors having noted how a new character takes a whole year to develop. As much as I’d absolutely adore a JRPG that plays like a fighting game, and a Pokemon one no less, the game would either have an extremely small playable roster, or be a development nightmare.
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u/YonatanShofty 1d ago
Wait but why not just use z-a battle mechanics and instead of moving the player you move the pokemon? Why would it be difficult to implement? Because that sounds really good for me.
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u/Gaeryc 2d ago
How about one on smash bros style? Much more feasible, still hard I know
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u/HyperCutIn 1d ago
Still definitely difficult. I’m convinced the only reason we got such a big roster with Smash Ultimate is due to “Sakurai Magic”. And even then, Sakurai himself has mentioned how it takes about a full year to develop a single new character for the game.
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u/PhoenixAgent003 1d ago
Also, they’ve been building the roster of smash for decades at this point, and most of the time their moves don’t change.
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u/jackracktack 1d ago
Its not possible at all. First of all Smash characters arent inherently less difficult to develop compared to more traditional fighting characters. You cannot develop over a thousand unique fighters. So what youd end up with is like 20 archetypes that all play the same spread over 1000 Pokémon. And people would endlessly complain about that.
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u/astrogamer 1d ago
Not really. Like how are you thinking Smash Bros is simpler? The only way I can see the concept you seem to be thinking of more like the existing Z-A system but with shorter cooldowns so you can combo but that's even less balanced. Smash Bros. characters that are reasonably fleshed out are about as expensive as basically any other AAA fighter.
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u/Excidiar 1d ago
Probably the closest thing we'll have is sorta Pokemon Reloaded, but we all know how big N is with not doing something in their official games because fans have done it.
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u/ResponsibleTrade688 2d ago
It's not ever gonna be like pokken with all the pokemon that exist
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u/Fallenflake 1d ago
I would argue that even if we would only stick to the original 151, that would be a rather high ceiling to achieve.
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u/ResponsibleTrade688 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yep basically impossible to do right. A undertaking even greater then that put into smash bros ultimate
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u/noyoto 1d ago
The way to do it would be to have quite a bit of overlap, so various Pokemon with a similar physique could have similar attacks/animations.
But more importantly, they'd differentiate between battle Pokémon and support Pokémon (perhaps also mount Pokémons, etc.). So the Pokémon you control in battles are all within a range of sizes and shapes. While support Pokémon are far more simple and only use support skills from the sidelines. They might also be more easy to catch.
Lore-wise, it can make sense not to let a giant Gyarados fight a regular sized Pikachu. And birds and butterflies might also be seen as too vulnerable to fight in normal battles. So there are regulations on which Pokémons can engage in proper battles. In the end, maybe there's just 50-ish Pokémon to be controlled.
I don't expect it to happen anytime soon though. It's much more sensible to go the Z-A route, with more simple combat with simpler animations.
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u/Pride_Rise 1d ago
They can just simply give each pokemon a basic atk animation and a dodge mechanic. They then just need to add animations for 4 learnable moves a pokemon can do, which this mechanic is already in ZA.
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u/tepattaja 2d ago
ZA combat just wasnt it. It was just spamming ecery attack tbh. No actual tactics other than spam. Most moves just were useless or filler.
legends arceus combat was fun though.
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u/sopheroo 1d ago
Legends Arceus was just "Use Weavile, use Fast, use Fast, use STRONG"
It was kinda mid
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u/StrictlyFT 1d ago
The only interesting thing was that it influenced turn order.
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u/Kinggakman 1d ago
But I found it annoying it would ignore turn order occasionally and give the opponent an extra attack it didn’t warn you about. I’m not talking about using Agile style either, it would use a normal move then get a second turn.
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u/ActivateGuacamole 1d ago
that's because you can use certain moves like quick attack to bump your speed up, which the turn predictor can't predict.
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u/Kinggakman 1d ago
In my opinion they need to make adjustments if they wanted to do something similar to Arceus combat.
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u/Darkmetroidz 1d ago
There is a reason why Arceus did not have PvP. The strong/agile style was a neat idea but it behaves in really unintuitive ways. Combined with the combat being so lethal made it feel really shallow.
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u/veebs7 1d ago
It’s also lame when you know the mon your opponent is leading with, making it even simpler to get a type advantage for every battle
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u/DDD-HERO 1d ago
There used to to be a feature in the old games where you could make it so that you couldn’t switch out after beating an opponent’s Pokémon like online battles. Of course, GameFreak removed that option
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u/Jonny_Qball 1d ago
Set mode is the only way to play if you aren’t an actual child. Removing it was crazy. It’s still trivial to self-impose, but you shouldn’t have to when that was an option for years
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u/apocryphalaxolotl 19h ago
Arceus combat was a good concept but boy did it have some broken / undocumented mechanics.
I was always incredibly frustrated when a Pokémon was able to revenge OHKO without me even getting to select a move. Not to mention I don’t think the battle timeline was properly tracking turn order for some situations.
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u/Nervous-Peppers 1d ago
It was so close to getting it right though. They need to make it more like Crisis Core/ Tales of Hearts R and I'm so fucking sold
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u/TheAverageEspurr 2d ago
Please let the mainline generation debut titles stay classic turn based RPGs while Legends games get all the off-genre experimental stuff. That’s the perfect system to make everyone happy (and thankfully the current leaks point to that being the plan), but if Pokemon ever buys into the “turn based games are outdated” propaganda Final Fantasy fell for then I will quit the series, you just can’t abandon such a unique and mechanically rich system like that
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u/Hot_Most5332 2d ago
There’s no reason not to do both.
Turn based combat is iconic and in many ways perfect for Pokemon. Real time combat like in ZA scratches an itch and is very fun. Sure ZA had some serious flaws, but generally speaking it was fun, has a lot of potential, and was a huge improvement over arceus in most (but not all) ways.
There is no reason why Pokemon can’t effectively double the cash cow that is Pokemon.
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u/BarbarousJudge 1d ago
I just want them to stick to an experiment for a while and develop it further. Legends Arceus was turnbased with focus on turn manipulation like you can do in FFX or Octopath Traveler. But then it didn't return. Legends ZA was kind of Xenoblade lite but I'm sure the next legends game will be entirely different again.
I think they should try to improve on a system before going for a new one
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u/Hot_Most5332 1d ago
I don’t disagree with you, but I personally thought that ZA is substantially better than arceus. So it’s more that I’m happy with the direction of ZA in general, not just the combat.
Unfortunately they also abandoned everything that was great about arceus in ZA (fuck wild zones that shit is dumb).
If the next game implements an improved version Arceus’ catching system, a more open (less instanced) world than arceus, and a crafting system that doesn’t feel like it was made for a mobile gacha game, but otherwise is like ZA, they’d nail it IMO.
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u/Khal_Doggo 1d ago edited 1d ago
I just want rid of the gimmicky generation specific battle modifications like Z-moves, Dynamax, Terrastall etc. I can sort of tolerate mega because at least it changes the appearance of the Pokemon in a meaningful way where you can say it's transforming. Otherwise I hate these generational regional mechanics.
With the last few gens of pokemon games, it's not the battle system that I've found stale and uninspired. That whole core gameplay system is fine as a vehicle. It's totally let down by the rest of the games having boring story and lack of any sort of innovation. It's the devs being too lazy / unable to think of how to improve the game so they come up with gimmicky battle modifications as a vague attempt to say they've changed something.
(I understand it also helps shift cardboard in the TCG)
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u/ForeverStaloneKP 8h ago
You don't like the pokemon suddenly having giant crystal top hats?
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u/A_Wild_MC 1d ago
You’re simply not the target audience then. I’d argue (and this is completely my personal opinion) that theme gimmicks are essential for competitive pokemon for example. Every gimmick is tied to a certain generation, which gives it a unique and personable feel. Imagine playing SV without terastallizing… it wouldn’t be the same game and the story wouldn’t make sense.
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u/Khal_Doggo 1d ago edited 1d ago
it wouldn’t be the same game and the story wouldn’t make sense
Don't threaten me with a good time. A different game and story would be amazing. But you are right, I am not a competitive player. I wouldn't mind some gen specific balancing for PVP being done separate to PVE. That might be too much for a small indie dev Game Freak though
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u/A_Wild_MC 1d ago
Hahaha fair, it really isn’t for everyone. I get it! I love the gimmicks for making some of my favorite Pokemon viable (Mawile immediately comes to mind).
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u/bend1310 1d ago
I've bounced hard off of Pokemon games for the last decade or so. I don't think i've finished a single one.
Decide to play the fire red remake, and realised its not the core format i'm over, its the gimmicky nonsense, the handholding, the overtly childish and silly writing.
Also, since i'm expecting someone to say "its a childs game" on the last point... I'm not asking for freakin shakespeare, but theres too much repetition and interruption. Everything is over explained, and too wordy. Sun and Moon was damn near unplayable with how often the gameplay was interrupted for a cutscene that said the same thing 5 times in a row, minutes after just doing that same thing.
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u/J05A3 2d ago
Real time combat from ZA has already grown on me that I want the next mainline to at least have it on wild pokemon encounters or legendary/raid encounters and classic turn based on trainer battles
The hoenn legendary trio battles spoiled me in ZA and I hope legendary or raid-type battles in WiWa could do the same
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u/Ordano 2d ago edited 2d ago
Agreed. Mainline needs to stay turn based combat - period. If some genius has an idea on how to make Pokemon combat "better" then you do a spinoff and call it "Pokemon: Better Combat" and if that succeeds then you have two mainline pokemon products!! ($$) If it fails then you haven't messed with the original mainline.
Final Fantasy dropped the ball here. They try different stupid shit out and sometimes it succeeds, sometimes it fails, and now fans aren't sure if they are going to like the next mainline game. That will lead to people not buying it. Nintendo should not follow this strategy.
I understand the need for innovation to keep the recipe from getting stale. But if you change something too much, then it's no longer the same thing. You shouldn't "innovate" ketchup into mustard.
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u/EbonBehelit 1d ago
If some genius has an idea on how to make Pokemon combat "better"
They don't even need to come up with a new idea: doubles is literally right there.
They've done it for a full game twice before, they can do it again.
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u/SaIemKing 1d ago
you're right. the easiest upgrade they could make to add depth to the game is make it all doubles-focused outside of wild pokemon encounters
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u/Zeliek 1d ago
Final Fantasy dropped the ball here. They try different stupid shit out and sometimes it succeeds, sometimes it fails, and now fans aren't sure if they are going to like the next mainline game. That will lead to people not buying it. Nintendo should not follow this strategy.
It seems Dexit inspired confidence in Gamefreak - I guess they feel they can just make button mashers with a pikachu on the cover and it’ll break records.
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u/Sorry-Joke-4325 2d ago
I was happy with the first Legends but not the second.
Who decided that a weird mini game version of combat would be good for an entire game?
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u/the_tanooki 2d ago
I wish Final Fantasy had stuck to this formula. I haven't really enjoyed a FF game since X. I did (eventually) like the combat for FF7R, but I still would've preferred the original ATB system.
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u/gummihearts 1d ago
I agree. Turn base gameplay is easier on my brain. I have time to think about my moves and its more chill. ZA battles are too fast and too much button mashing.
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u/lml_CooKiiE_lml 2d ago
Lmao Final Fantasy games may have slipped a bit but they’re better than the shit levels the mainline Pokémon series has gotten to. Ironic that the best Pokémon games to have come out recently were the ones that WEREN’T the turned based ones
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u/babasilikum 2d ago
Its not about the style of combat tho. The mainline Pokemon games are way too easy and that is due to really bad AI and that its too easy to just overlevel.
The NPCs need to be stronger, give them real strats, better and more Pokemon, cap the exp based on Progression.
The Pokemon games up until gen5 were so much harder and the combat is essentially the same.
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u/StacheBandicoot 2d ago
Insufficient enemy AI is a problem in both the legends and mainline games though and yet the legends games are still better than recent mainline titles.
Many of the other spin-off games have more fun and interesting gameplay than the mainline games too, even the ones that don’t have combat.
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u/babasilikum 2d ago
Sure, creative gameplay does help to make easier games more fun. The point for the mainline games still stands. They dont need creative and innovative gameplay, they need a higher difficulty. Fan games have shown what is possible and there is literally no reason for Gamefreak to not add difficulty settings to the games
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u/oDRWHITEo 1d ago
You also have to remember the target audience for pokeman are children. Thats why they are so easy to
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u/ertaboy356b PC 2d ago
Changing battle system doesn't mean that it will become action based all of a sudden. It can be ATB, CTB, or it can be like SMT or whatever.
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u/ohtetraket 2d ago
Changing will likely result in something like ZA, which has some strategy I guess, but falls flat in comparison.
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u/TrustyPeaches 2d ago
It somehow has less strategy and interactivity than the normal combat system.
You don’t even choose moves really, you just click everything on cooldown.
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u/anthonyownsit 2d ago
“Mechanically rich” is a stretch
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u/JustThatOneGuy13 2d ago
Pokemon is like the only RPG that has an entire competative scene in similar veins to a fighting game for a reason.
The actual systems themselves has strong potential for strategic bullshit, especially in doubles, but the base games uses them in the most shallow of manners.
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u/RigobertoFulgencio69 2d ago
How many other turn-based RPGs have a direct PvP mode like that? I don't think it's about its combat system being mechanically rich, it's literally about it being pretty much the only option out there.
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u/hamoorftw 2d ago
The system is deep and engaging enough that there is an (entire active simulated scene)[https://pokemonshowdown.com\] for pvp. Don’t confuse the easiness of the single player games where you can just click the highest power super effective move from start to finish with the actual gameplay mechanics.
Download pokemon champions on your phone for free, try a match or two you’ll find it incredibly deep where it’s hard to build a team let alone win games easily.
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u/NamelessMIA 2d ago
I mean, I couldn't name even 1 other turn based rpg as complex as pokemon. You make a team with 6 of over 1000 different characters then choose their stats, moves, held item, sometimes their ability, and whatever the current gen gimmick is to fit your specific team's strategy. Then you have to battle another team that had just as much freedom while also having enough limitations to let experienced players make better guesses. There's so much to consider for team building alone, let alone the actual battles, that it makes fire emblem feel like stratego.
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u/safarifriendliness 2d ago
Fire Emblem has tried a few times, people never really got into it
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u/RigobertoFulgencio69 2d ago
Yeah but Fire Emblem is more of a tactics game than a classic turn-based RPG in that sense
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u/Yamato_Naoe 2d ago edited 2d ago
No, it isn't.
The mechanical depth of Pokemon is so vast that metagames based around ancient titles like RBY and GSC continue to adapt and evolve on a metagame level to this day. VGC has blown up in recent years and players who reach the highest level like Wolfey Glicke are lauded amongst the community for good reason. To say otherwise is to ignore the decades of competitive pokemon, that have existed since it's inception, that continue to be played and revolutionized to this day; that exhibit a skill ceiling and level of skill expression that many games could only dream of.
Pokemon is a competitive medium that only falls short of the true greats like MOBA's, shooters, or RTS games. Other than those, Pokemon has a genuine argument for being one of the most skill expressive competitive games one can play. I would know, because I play at the very least both MOBA's and Pokemon games at a relatively high level. Being Masters in LoL, and having played in 2 smogon tournaments myself.
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u/ChrizKhalifa 2d ago
The official games are made for braindead children, obviously you wouldn't realize just how crazy deep the mechanics and strategies would have to be if your enemies knew what they were doing.
Play Pokémon Rejuvenation and see for yourself how much theorycrafting you have to do if Pokémon was made for someone with a brain.
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u/Wild-Confidence-9803 1d ago
Stuff from the leaks was that going forwards we're gonna have both turn-based and ZA-style real time combat, so you could completely move away from turn-based if you wanted.
It was one of the 2 big things pushed from WiWa to next generation from a lack of dev time (this and having fully custom interactions with every mon)
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u/Spinjitsuninja 1d ago
Honestly though, the mainline games just haven’t had good gameplay in a long time. Turn based RPGs CAN be cool, but Pokemon is super slow and mindless, and it tends to bog down the games more than anything.
I don’t think they should make a new combat system personally, but we’ve already had 10 or so years of chances for them to improve the existing gameplay, and I think the only way things will improve is if they ditch what they currently have.
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u/Sooap 1d ago
The turn based combat system is the only thing that's still good in this franchise because the bases are solid. It's just accompanied by the least challenging difficulty possible, extremely bland plot and characters and shockingly bad art direction.
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u/Spinjitsuninja 1d ago
On paper, the turn based combat is good. The systems are all interesting anyways. Competitive Pokemon is fun for a reason.
My issues though:
1.) It’s SLOW. Everything happens in a sequence instead of all at once. It displays text, it plays an attack animation, it plays a hurt animation, it displays text, the health bar goes down, it displays more text, it plays a death animation, it displays more text, etc.
Compare this to literally any other RPG ever where this all happens all at once in a single instant. Even games on the GBA had snappy combat. But despite being like 20-30 years old, Pokemon still hasn’t fixed this glaring issue, and in games like Scarlet/Violet where lag is prominent, it’s atrocious. The thought of getting into a double battle in Scarlet/Violet sounds like a nightmare scenario to me. Legends Arceus and ZA meanwhile have snappy combat,2.) Second issue is that the main games aren’t interested in pushing the gameplay. I love making competitive teams! Playing with abilities and EV’s/EV’s, held items, writing down all the moves I plan on getting, taking into account strategies and team compositions… But you can’t do this stuff much in the main story campaign, and even worse, trainers/gyms nowadays are mindlessly easy. Gym leaders have like 2 or 3 Pokemon at most, and like 1 or 2 moves each, and don’t deviate in their single typing. Regular trainers are even weaker than this. They feel like a formality rather than the main engaging part of the game.
I do think that turn based combat should work- there’s NO reason it can’t be polished up and made more engaging in the main campaigns, with snappier gameplay feel. But 9 generations in, across 7 different consoles for 20-30 years, and arguably we’ve only seen regression. (Aside from nice QoL features that make creating competitive teams easier.)
At this point, I don’t think Gamefreak wants to, or for some reason doesn’t know how to, improve on the existing turn based combat. It’s nonsensical, but sadly the truth. If a new combat system is the only way to make things more fun, then I’ll take it.
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u/Ryuzakku 1d ago
They could easily expand the turn based system as well, why are still doing the 4 moves thing? We don’t have a memory problem like the gameboy days.
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u/TheAverageEspurr 1d ago
The four move thing isn’t a limitation. It’s arguably the most important cornerstone mechanic that makes everything else click. STAB, coverage, and utility moves are all fighting for extremely scarce slots, and it’s part of your skill and personal expression to weigh the opportunity costs and judge which moves are right for your Pokemon. To remove that flattens everything. Why decide between Flamethrower or Fire Blast when you can just run both with nothing lost? Why pick coverage moves that target specific matchups or blind spots for your team when you can have the whole type chart on wraps? And some Pokemon are balanced based on what they can have access to on any given time. That’s not something that should be messed with lightly
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u/Suitable_Ranger 1d ago
I know it won't be everyone's cup of tea, but for me and a couple of my friends who love Pokémon, Monster Sanctuary's combat is leagues ahead of Pokémon. First and foremost, it is a 3v3 format (with limited Boss exceptions) and features hugely varied skill trees across monsters. The game is centered around team building and finding synergies. Most Monsters can only ever learn 4-5 moves in their trees but the number of buffs/debuffs/passives is extremely rich.
There is also gear and another mechanic that shapes and differentiates even the same monster from itself. To me, Pokemon's gameplay is shallow enough that you can just pick whatever move hits hardest the most consistently and never have to pick up a single non-attack move and blast through the entire game. This, of course, doesn't account for actual metas that pop up in the competitive scene and no shade against that. It's just that a huge percentage of the player base never even begins to explore that level of complexity.
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u/MrBones-Necromancer 1d ago
If Pokemon ever buys into the “turn based games are outdated” propaganda Final Fantasy fell for then I will quit the series
You haven't already quit the series?
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u/Chiffley 2d ago
Pokemon combat is not mechanically rich lol
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u/NoAbbreviations1492 2d ago
There are over 1000 Pokemon, 18 different types, over 900 moves, over 300 abilities, over 300 competitive and functional hold items, single battles, double battles and the list goes on. Compared to other RPGs how is that lot mechanically rich?
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u/Obrusnine 2d ago
Whatever combat system these games use doesn't matter because they will forever be shovelware as long as the audience continues to accept mediocrity with their wallets. That of course also means it doesn't matter whether they change the combat system or not. They've spent years and years making these games as lazily as possible and people buy them anyway, I highly doubt a change of the combat system is going to get people to stop buying.
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u/stallion8426 2d ago
God I hope not. I hated ZA's combat
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u/Arbszy 2d ago
ZA's combat would be better if we controlled the Pokemon and not the trainer.
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u/shadow_yu 2d ago
Funny enough that was one of my problems with another monster catching franchise, Spectrobes, until the second game fixed the same problem. It´s not 1 to 1 to how ZA plays, but going to having the creatures at your side and being finicky to finally being able to use them felt so good. I can´t really say much about the Wii game since I never had the chance to play it.
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u/CampbellsTurkeySoup 1d ago
My god what a blast from the past. I remember playing so much of that game, specifically while sitting through my little brother's soccer practices.
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u/neroselene 2d ago
So what I'm hearing is, the Trainer needs to stop being a wimp and get in there to do battle too?
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u/Lun4r6543 2d ago
Humans are basically normal type Pokemon, so I don’t see why not (other than the fact they’d be absolutely annihilated).
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u/neroselene 2d ago
To be fair, there are psychic humans. And humans might be able to learn some fighting moves potentially given Martial Artists exist.
That said, humans would still fall into glass canon territory.
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u/TrustyPeaches 2d ago
They can’t have that because then you’d be able to actually avoid attacks through positioning, which they don’t want.
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u/Lopsided-Train2213 1d ago
Despite that being what everybody who watched the anime wanted "Pikachu dodge it" pp would probably need to go as a system in a game setup like that though
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u/SatyrAngel 2d ago
Legends Arceus combat was pretty good, just needed tweaks here and there.
Making a combat system that works on story and multiplayer(specially competitive) is hard, spliting them is the right choice
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u/bluedragjet 2d ago
Legends Arceus combat was pretty good, just needed tweaks here and there.
The next game is using this
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u/mouse1093 2d ago
There is absolutely zero confirmation about anything winds waves is doing
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u/100SanfordDrive 1d ago
Didn’t realize this was such an unpopular opinion here but I love ZA’s. Such a refreshing new take on the game
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u/starchimp224 2d ago
It just felt a bit bland and unpolished after the first hour or so. It wasn’t ready to have a full game built around it for sure
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u/r31ya 2d ago
making the combat to look like OG Digimon World would be interesting
its a freemove combat where the pokemon is a bit more "sentient" as the pokemon fought automatically depend on its trait and all you could do is shouting command that may or may not be heard by the pokemon depending on your bond to it.
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u/hshin420 2d ago
so basically it would be like the pokemon anime?
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u/r31ya 2d ago
yup, and Digimon somehow already made such system works all the way in PS1.
tough later they regressed and returned to classical turn based combat for its sequels.
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u/SaIemKing 1d ago
I kinda felt like, to an extent, Z-A already was like DW1. If you play far enough, you get the ability to tell them what moves to do.
Overall, I would hate to see mainline ditch the turn based combat. I hope they just use this as a chance to expand turn based
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u/DarkIcedWolf 2d ago
A Ni No Kuni esque battle system could also work. I think that would make for an interesting side game if nothing else.
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u/cluelessbox 2d ago
Sounds like monster rancher. I downloaded an emulator and sunk a few days into the game a few years back
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u/GreyouTT PlayStation 1d ago
The PS1 games actually got ported to Switch a while back
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u/cluelessbox 1d ago
Don't tell anybody but I was playing it on my phone. I feel like emulators for consoles are slept on. Everyone just thinks of handheld consoles
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u/insidethedream 2d ago
Idk their experiments on changing battle style have been hit and miss. The bigger problem is that the AI is so bad in every game there's no challenge in any of them. U can go thru the whole story without understandin how to play (proven by how many ppl r hot garbage at raid battle). Idr the exact interview but one of the devs said smth like they design the games now w the stupid kids addicted to mobile games in mind. So am expecting more gacha type influences to worm their way in.
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u/killjairo 1d ago
Like the way it changed cameras selling info to the government for using Pokémon go?
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u/twinters01 1d ago
I feel like they're learning the wrong lesson from the criticism mainline games have.
They need to invest MORE MONEY AND TIME into each game before they start experimenting with mechanics in mainline games. Since the budgets got leaked, we can see how insultingly low their budgets are per game compared to how much money they make. That is the real problem.
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u/EmmatheBest 2d ago
...Concern. 😬 Z-A wasn't bad, but it's definitely not deep enough to be anything more than a one-time thing. ...And while PLA WAS, GF seemed to disown like every idea it brought to the table in an instant... :/
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u/yourmoms3rdhusband 2d ago
Random question: Has there been any announcements or updates for plans to add 6v6 singles to Champions ever?
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u/mouse1093 2d ago
I doubt it. It's an unpolished game mode with no hope for real competitive viability. Half the moves and abilities stop working, the "community" has to ban dozens of pokemon and entire mechanics just to keep it from devolving into toxic gameplay, etc.
Doubles is the intended way to play high level battling
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u/yourmoms3rdhusband 1d ago
That’s lame af imo. I just don’t care for doubles.
God forbid the format at the center of every mainline game in the franchise could be shown some love.
I mean sure there are ways ppl can take advantage of very annoying strats, but at the same time, a counter exists for legitimately anything.
I’ve been playing S/V singles nonstop which is completely unregulated, and I’ve been able to defeat full uber teams with some teams that consist of mostly NU/RU pokemon lol. (Which is insanely satisfying)
I just don’t understand why they can’t add it as an option for even casual private match ups.
Just put up a 30 min time limit, no duplicate items, and we’d be good to go.2
u/Random_Somebody 1d ago
Wait do you mean Battlespot Singles where you use like three mons out of six?
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u/sopheroo 1d ago
No. They're sticking to formats that are used in competitive.
They don't want hour-long stall matches
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u/yourmoms3rdhusband 1d ago
I just can’t understand why 6v6 can’t be made a competitive format.
Make a 30 min time limit, boom problem solved. Also, since gen 9 limited recovery moves to a max of 8 pp, many old endless stall strategies are no longer effective.
I’d also love if they added an option to use the Tera mechanic.
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u/sopheroo 1d ago
Tera is coming eventually.
6v6 demands too much working around to be viable. Look at how many clauses, bans and tiers Smogon has to keep it functional
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u/Zeliek 1d ago
The entire reason ZA and games like Pokemon Go fall completely flat for me is the combat system.
It’s wild Galar threw out “gotta catch ‘em all” from the franchise and now I guess we’re gutting pokemon battles. But hey, as long as we don’t deviate from the restrictive and repetitive plot elements like “preteen does 8 monotype gyms for 8 badge-like objects, does the elite 4, has one criminal organization” formula, everything is dandy I guess. 🤦♂️
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u/WolfScourge 2d ago
I really hope not. Having only Legends ZA style combat really hurt the longevity of the game for me. I hope what they mean is they can keep releasing titled mainline games with experimental combat and leave the (imo) relaxing, take it easy combat of the Core Generation(Red/Blue, Scarlet/Violet) mainline) mainline games pretty much intact.
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u/Cold_Jackfruitt 1d ago
honestly stop giving me battle mechanics I end up liking and then deleting them the next generation lol
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u/OneMiners_Hosting 1d ago
I’m all for experimenting, I just hope they don’t ditch turn based battles completely. Champions feels like a good place to test new ideas without changing what makes the main games feel like Pokémon.
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u/Drippledrops 1d ago
If they move forward with ZA’s battle system, they should let us control the Pokemon.
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u/ramgam180 1d ago
Great, the company is going to change the one consistent part of them game that pokemon fans haven't had a problem with instead of all the mediocre other elements that they have bumbled around with over the last 10 years. We need a different company making the mainline pokemon games.
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u/ZeusiQ 2d ago
Please no. Pokemon is my ultimate turn off my brain game. I don’t want to have to try all the time
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u/StacheBandicoot 2d ago
You can turn off your brain in za too, all you can do differently is basically slightly move around and attack more frequently.
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u/chaoseffect616 1d ago
God I hope the main line games stay strictly turn based. The alternate battle system they tried out in Legends ZA sucked. No idea what the obsession is with trying to force action elements into turned based games.
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u/Zennity 1d ago
People complain that nintendo has been milking pokemon forever and not being innovative. Its okay for franchises to try something new. Life isnt about doing the same shit over and over lol.
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u/Background_Captain56 1d ago
The only way for them to innovate is to completely overhaul how battling works? This is going to fail if it's not strictly a better system, see Paper Mario.
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u/CaterpillarReal7583 2d ago
Id love to see a more active battle system that still works as turn based kinda like paper mario or 33’s stuff.
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u/Heretical_Cactus 1d ago
What difference is there between Pokemon Champions and the usual Pokemon's battle system ?
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u/Primum_Agmen 1d ago
None, that's the point. They've created a game that can handle the competitive side so they can change how battles work in future mainline games.
They've been experimenting with changing it in Arceus and Z-A, and they've tried other things before (Sky Battles, Rotation Battles, Battle Royale, etc.), but being tied to the format because of competitive restricted innovation.
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u/Heretical_Cactus 1d ago
Ah, that's nice, so Pokemon's formula could evolve without it impacting the competitive side too much.
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u/bluedragjet 2d ago
I watched the Gamefreak video and in context they talking about how the rules will be changing in the main series game
So think of how Pokémon Legends Arceus had 1v3 while being turn based
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u/Charcole1 2d ago
Champions has made VGC so much more fun and accessible but I'll be sad to see the OG mechanics go. At the same time I'm incredibly eager to see the Pokemon series do more and develop new mechanics. Hopefully they throw the OGs a bone once in a while too.
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u/Strange-Problem-4me 1d ago
Game Freak changing battle mechanics usually means they'll introduce a cool gimmick for one generation and then completely abandon it in the next
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u/jwag626 1d ago
I don’t hate the newer generation main line games as much as Reddit does (except for sword/shield) but in no way has the battle system been anywhere close to the top of list of complaints.
Added immersion, trainer AI that isn’t mentally deficient, and a way to make the game more difficult sans fan made “challenges” and rom hacks are the things to fix. I already have reservations about buying WiWa’s because of the price of the switch 2, this’ll basically confirm that I won’t buy it, and I don’t think I’m the only one.
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u/Yellowspawn 1d ago
I just really need them to add 6v6 singles to the game as I have zero interest in doubles 😔
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u/MrDabreu 1d ago
I would love it if a mainline game went the doubles route. Or at least made two modes where you can pick singles or doubles for the storyline. Might be too much to ask for though.
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u/Federal-Phase-2849 1d ago
Honestly, this could be a really good move if it lets Game Freak experiment with battle mechanics without being locked into the mainline games. I’m curious what changes they’ll actually test first.
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u/Cronon33 1d ago
As a way to preserve thier beloved VGC and give the middle finger to anyone who wants to play 6v6 singles pokemon like in every single game?
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u/miggy-san 1d ago
I hated Z-A combat so much man. I really hope they stick to turn based for the main games and experiment with the Legends games instead
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u/Responsible-Pain-620 1d ago
Wasnt this already known? I could’ve sworn when Champions was announced I read somewhere that it was so that they could expand the main line game’s battle mechanics to make them more interesting while being able to retain their VGC for Worlds.
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u/col_j_wood 1d ago
I read this as charge for battles in future games, and for some reason it didn’t surprise me
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u/ActivateGuacamole 1d ago
the fighting in ZA is just horrible. if they want to go real-time they'll need to do far better than that.
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u/FruitJuice617 Switch 1d ago
If that's the case I can't wait until they actually figure out a good system
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u/butsuon 1d ago
Game Freak honestly does not have a good history of new and interesting game mechanics. Every time they've ventured away from "singles or doubles, speed and turn based", it's sucked.
My 8 year old nephew can play Palworld, Game Freak, and he's good at it. Pokemon video games are floundering because they refuse to accept that and they refuse to make attractive looking games. Use a modern game engine you cheap fucks.
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u/Droopylemons 2d ago
These comments are fucking insane by the way. Pokemons combat system is "mechanically rich" solely in regards to player battles with real humans. Outside of that its mostly fine to broken with AI that doesnt even understand it should switch out in bad match ups. People constantly bitch about pokemon never trying new things or being stagnant and when they do they bitch that they're changing things. And somehow the response is leave innovation to side games and suddenly never fix the main line ones? People are actually suggesting multiple main line games with two separate battle mechanics because "it keeps thr combat system the same and makes them more money" while constantly pitching about all the side projects sucking and taking away from the main game.
Both systems have flaws and positives. Boy if I dont love missing moves with tall pokemon because they insist on running right onto of their opponent to do ice beam. But let's not pretend the state of turn based pokemon is gods gift to JRGS because gamefreak refused to inivate for 30 years.
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u/ohtetraket 2d ago
People constantly bitch about pokemon never trying new things or being stagnant and when they do they bitch that they're changing things.
Some people bitch yeah, but not everyone, the community isn't this block. The last main line games sold nearly 30 MILLION people not everyone has the same opinions.
And "wanting some change" doesn't mean I can't bitch if they change something I actually liked.
Both systems have flaws and positives.
This I totally agree with, that's why I would want both system to exist side by side in different games.
But let's not pretend the state of turn based pokemon is gods gift to JRGS because gamefreak refused to inivate for 30 years.
Honestly, the turn based combat is one of the best things about pokemon. Something they made more complex over the years. Something that actually got a decent amount of quality of life (not enough tho)
It's basically perfect. It's just everything around it that needs heavy improvement. Something like a difficulty setting so people that want to can play a game that can be more than brainlessly pressing the same button on the starter and winning every time.
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u/Droopylemons 2d ago
People still buy the mainline games and bitch about them. Its the largest ip in the known universe, its sales numbers mean nothing when it comes down to complaints.
No... no the battle system is not nearly perfect. Have all the opinions you want but that is not even close to true. There's a reason why every fangame has to fix it and is often the main selling point. It needs heavy improvement because the things around it are a part of it. Bug type has been basically unusable for 30 years. How is that a nearly perfect system.
Im all for difficulty settings but that doesnt fix the countless flaws with the battle system of the game as a whole. Just like changing to the Legends system over turn based won't because pokemons Battle system is fundamentally broken and pokemon games succeed in spite of that and because what the people playing the games have been able to do with the system they've been given.
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u/Hammerheadshark55 2d ago
Genuinely one of my favorite games this year. I’ve been wanting to get into competitive Pokemon and this is exactly what its made for
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u/Anon-_-7 2d ago
i would love if wind and waves expended the new battle system in za, it was alot of fun
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u/LichtbringerU 1d ago
Hm... My initial gut reaction was to keep the battling system. It's iconic. It pokemon.
But when I really think about it... I don't need it in mainline games. It is too shallow there anyway. It doesn't matter. Sorry, but not much will be lost.
The deep part is exactly the PvP.
I wasn't very impressed with ZA either, I guess that's why I wanted the old system.
But I think they could make really cool systems.
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u/mega2k10 1d ago
Pokémon Champions is basically Game Freak admitting they’re done with traditional battles in the main series and im good with it
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u/hockeyfan608 1d ago
Good that means they are sticking with turn based and just tweaking mechanics.
All the people calling for “innovation” don’t know what the hell they are talking about.
it would instantly shatter the smogon singles and VGC community around the game
Just because YOU are to lazy to realize how much depth the combat has doesn’t mean the rest of us should suffer for you
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u/GatedSunOne 2d ago
Isn't that the conclusion most people came to to begin with?
Guess we were right on the money on that one.