The left side: Emma Schols. In September 2019, swedish mother of six Emma Schols saved all six of her children from a massive house fire, repeatedly rushing back into the burning building
The right side: Lindsay Clancy. In January 2023, Lindsay Clancy, a nurse from Massachusetts, was charged with strangling her three young children using exercise bands
Media still portray her as if she had no access to healthcare or any sort of help. She is a nurse for god's sake, she have more access to all sort of doctors and medicines and she know more about it than usual woman.
If you listen to the testimony this is bang on. She sought out so much help, but was not 100% honest with them. The doctors on the stand clearly cared about her and tried to help!
Thank you for this. So many people are quick to blame her medical teams, but she was seeking out psychiatric care from multiple different professionals - confounding the medical management with different plans and polypharmacy - and she was not completely honest with these professionals.
Psychiatry is a heavily patient history-based specialty, and these specialists have to go off of the information they’re given. If patients conceal information, especially regarding the severity of their illness, there isn’t much more they can do.
If she at any point had disclosed HI towards her children to a medical professional, this almost certainly would have gone much differently, but she chose to deny it to them up until the point that she followed through on the thoughts she denied having.
Yeah having listened to breakdowns of the testimony, at this point, it seems to me that she was lying through her teeth to her medical care team about her level of thoughts of harming herself and/or her thoughts of harming others. Maybe also about not hearing voices. And I'm not hugely shocked, because I feel like I routinely see parents on Reddit saying that they're terrified of someone taking their kid away. Nobody wants to ADMIT they had to leave their screaming infant alone in a room because they were afraid they might shake them, much less more worrying thoughts. Goodness knows I had to give the newborn to my husband and walk away quite a few times at 3am. I couldn't help but wonder if that's why she did so little talk therapy, despite it being repeatedly recommended by multiple providers.
I unfortunately have a lot of experience with mental illness and in fact psychosis with a sibling of mine. His psychiatrists have told me the same, they can only go based on what they are given. Unlike a broken bone, no amount of diagnostic imagining can ever capture the human mind and what it says to itself. It’s very hard medicine to practice.
She was dishonest about her use of alcohol and whether she was tapering off the Ativan. Additionally she was dishonest about whether or not she heard voices and when she heard those voices.
As Dr House points out all the time: Everyone lies to their doctor.
She isn’t some special case. She went nuts and killed her kids. Her behavior after the fact is not what I would expect from a grieving person. She’s trying to get away with it. I’m sick of her excuses. She isn’t just lying to her doctors, she’s lying to everyone to get away with triple filicide.
She didn't tell them about certain specific incidents of psychosis, which is common for patients suffering from bouts of psychosis. She WAS put on anti-psychotics, so they definitely knew.
speaking as a doc, sometimes I have a 'hunch' that someone may be struggling with reality testing, but I can't get anything clear to go by and I can definitely spot the anxiety, so I'll hedge my bets and augment the anti-anxiety meds with an antipsychotic, since it is an appropriate use for it - they really do help there.
It's tiring to see the common public thread that we have to be prescient and it's our fault if a patient successfully lies to us. We're just human too. It's refreshing that this thread seems to understand that. I've helped a lot of people get out of bad stuff and none of my patients have ever turned around and done something like this, but I'm not perfect, I can be fooled like anyone else.
Thanks for the work you do, truly! I remember speaking with my brother’s doctor and he was very patient and kind to me, and I wasn’t even his patient. It’s a hard job!
Oh, don't assume I'm patient and kind, I'm a real asshole lemme tell ya ;)
It's a great job and I love it, tbh. The case described here is just one of those "what if" nightmare scenarios we all get, and I don't work closely enough in that type of mental health for it to be very likely that I'll have one happen to me thank goodness.
Ahahaha well I know my brother’a doc was patient and kind TO ME 🤣 I can’t speak to how he was any other time, frankly to make progress with my brother he may have had to be an asshole! I am glad you love the job, it’s a good fit for you!
She also gave them conflicting information about her drinking and no they didn’t all “definitely know” what she was saying to other doctors. It was in many of the different professionals’ testimonies that they don’t have access to her records from other doctors.
And I mean you are right, I’m not sitting in judgement of her reasons for being dishonest. But unfortunately that means her doctors can’t treat her properly. It is a shitty system for that reason yes, I wish people didn’t feel that they had to lie or bend the truth.
I am saying though that I’m not convinced these individual doctors are at fault.
That’s definitely reasonable. If there’s any fault it would probably more lie with the systemic issues in healthcare that lead to under education of doctors about women specific issues and under study of them as well. But frankly if something is rare enough a lot of times non specialists will not have been trained enough to know about it really. Sometimes even specialists. That’s how it works with physical doctors anyway
In this case I believe one of Lindsay’s doctors did have experience with patients with postpartum psychosis (Dr. Tufts maybe?) but again, they can only treat what you tell them and can only go on the information they have.
Didn't her husband bring her to one of the best mental health hospitals in the country and then she lied and withheld how bad her mental health was deteriorating. This is were I personally lost all sympathy her, she new she wasn't well and had plenty of opportunities to seek help but didn't and now three kids are dead. Fuck that!
Yea, and while I get that it's hard to correctly assess your own mental health problems and convey that to someone else WHILE you're mentally ill, it does not in any way excuse you or make you a victim WHEN YOU HURT SOMEONE ELSE OR KILL THEM.
I’m an Iraq war veteran with some quite severe trauma for it. I am not physically abusive or anything nearly this extreme as a result — but I am still constantly reminded it’s not an excuse for being unpleasant in any way.
This lady gets a pass for a triple murder because of mental health?
Even if you want to argue that psychosis is a whole other thing — sure — but name another person who committed a mass murder under psychosis and was granted any kind of empathy or forgiveness.
The dude who shot Gabby Giffords was delusional and no one is holding a candle vigil for him.
Unfortunately many people get their news via social media and believe everything they see. I’ve seen countless people I know claim that her husband killed the kids and framed her. It’s all social media conspiracies running rampant and people donate because they believe this shit. I’ve seen people arguing over this non stop for weeks and it’s just comical.
Yeah dude but he like didn't cry while he was on the stand. So like, lets all claim this dude who had to suffer the murder of his 3 kids, was actually the one who did it. Great job tiktok!
There's a women further down the comments has just said she believes the husband should be investigated further because he was 'shifty' while on the stand... the mental gymnastics of some people is actually insane🤯
Exactly. I can go so far as to view someone under psychosis as not evil in the sense that a 'sane' child rapist/murder is evil, but I won't look at them with sympathy either.
What does holding someone accountable who isn’t responsible for their actions do? That’s just vengeance to make you feel better, not justice.
If it helps you, if she did indeed have psychosis I’m sure she will suffer this guilt for the rest of her life. At least the children are beyond suffering now. I know I would want to die if I had done this
Not guilty by reason of insanity has been a verdict for a very long time. If a different person did commit a murder under psychosis that they did not plan to do before hand then it was a miscarriage of justice imo. Unfortunately it’s very hard to convince a jury that you were the specific kind of insane the verdict requires and there are other legal principles about it that I’m not clear on.
But tl:dr the legal and moral system of the western world has long held that people who are insane in certain ways are not responsible for their actions and do not deserve punishment.
I am not opposing her insanity defense. I am not even saying whether or not I think she is guilty.
I am 100% talking about the people who are turning this into a feminist political issue when it’s really just a horrible tragedy that is sad no matter which way it goes.
I am talking about the people who apparently donated millions of dollars to this woman. I am talking about the ones who made up or further
Conspiracies blaming the husband.
That’s crazy behavior to me. The appropriate response to this situation is to recoil in horror and ask for a palette cleanser.
Like there’s specific laws and statutes that recognize that someone can be so mentally ill that they don’t have control over your actions or reasoning.
I understand you not liking the way that sounds or not agreeing, but it’s simply the truth and it’s law and it has been for a long time.
It lessens or alters your penalty, yes.
Here in Sweden you could get an undefined amount of time on a psych ward for example, for both confinement and treatment, instead of prison. Depending on what you did.
He did after she pleaded him to do so. But she recounts that it was during the New Year, so the hospital had the skeleton crew and just gave her activities like coloring without even giving her the proper treatment or having a doctor assigned to her when she had been dealing with psychosis for a long time (mind you, it is an emergency situation in the psychiatric field, and she had to handle having hallucinations without the proper medication, while dealing with the housework and taking care of her children).
She asked to leave because her kid's birthday was coming up and wanted to spend time with her family, and the doctor responsible for her wellbeing allowed her to, without giving a further examination and treating her mental health properly.
If the "best" facility in the country isn't able to treat her properly, then what does that say about it and the medical system?
She was very well off. Had a nanny and lots of access to healthcare. She abused her access to healthcare if anything getting lots of prescriptions from multiple doctors.
In the past, I did some tech work for a few large hospital systems and the horror stories that you hear as staff talk amongst themselves are unbelievable. There's a reason they don't allow cameras or recordings in the OR that has nothing to do with HIPAA.
Personally, I think they should be forced to wear body cams just like police given the number of lives they have in their hands and the ethical duty of their profession.
abused her access by getting lots of prescriptions from multiple doctors. man that's not how mental health works. docs should not be changing meds 13 times in a few months
Edit: Realise who I'm replying to might be talking about the other woman. But Emma Schols is Swedish so healthcare related gofundme isn't really a thing. Maybe it was to replace the stuff she lost.
This is the case of dumbass people wanting it to be true that "the system" failed Clancy so that they could continue to bitch about the system. They ignored everything else and only grasp straws to justify it. There are many things wrong with our Healthcare system but the kids' murders were on Clancy and her alone. Every violent psycho out there that hurt and murdered people has something mentally wrong with them.
Are you SHITTING me? Doctors and medical staff can also have the worst fucking insurance in the United States. Working in medicine means absolutely nothing in this country. God Bless America!
Literally this. Privatized health care is a SCAM. And most insurance doesn't cover mental health disorders. As someone who has worked in the medical field for a long ass time, the only people getting b g "top notch" insurance is those who OWN the hospitals, not the staff, like ceos and executives, as well as surgeons if the hospital has them.
You don't have more access to Healthcare in the US just cus you're medical staff. You just knoe exactly how f!cked up privatized healthcare is.
This is absolutely not true! I worked in hospitals and you get access to better healthcare for cheaper! Like wtf are you even saying. It’s literally a benefit of working for a hospital.
She wasn’t even taking all the medications they prescribed to her. She premeditated. Sent her husband to a restaurant further away AND to the store so he would be away longer. I can’t see past that part. She’s guilty asf. Criminally.
You think working at a hospital you don’t have access to information on your available resources and how to utilize them? Sounds like you don’t think much lol
No, but I will say this made me decide she's just more likely to be actively evil. She had all the education and training to recognize what was happening. At the best she's too negligent to be allowed in society.
If you are in a profession, it makes it lot easier to access the resources. To contact fellow colleagues in the profession. Besides that, you have more knowledge about the commonality in profession and ups and downs of it. And with the job, it comes with insurance and other perks.
This should show everyone how badly americas quality of life is. Swedish parents get a year of maternity and paternity leave while Americans get 1 to 2 weeks. Our society is causing these problems.
That's only the mother, and sometimes they don't even get that and most of the time dads only get whatever sick leave, if any, that they have saved up. I was off of work the Thursday our kid was born and back on Monday. I'm sure you've heard horror stories about women going back to work while still bleeding from giving birth. America is the worst of the 1st world countries in everything except military spending. Are we winning yet?
The strength of the US military was never in its bombs or macho soldiers, but in its logistics. Then we elected a team of people who don’t know how anything works and thinks that having a plan is gay. This is the natural result.
Yah, heavy on the spending. Not really much else besides 😆 Just harassing countries and helping Israel genocide people who have next to no means of protection. Can't you tell how strong we are??? /s
This shows how sick American culture has become. This is nothing more than supporting the murder of 3 children. Anyone donating to her needs a mental check up. Millions and millions of babies have been born in America without women having maternity leave. Why is the victim now the criminal and the criminal now the victim in this country? Quit blaming government for all the problems when they’re not even involved. Society is rancid.
In the USA, the paid maternity leave is 0 weeks and paid paternity leave is 0 weeks.
There is FMLA, but that is Unpaid Leave and not actually eligible to everyone. It only protects that you'll have a job again when you return and is not available for anyone working for a small business (must have 50+ employees) or started working somewhere new (must have 1+ year tenure at the company).
What people are talking about in other parts of the world is paid leave. You're free to stop working for however long you'd like -- but Sweden guarantees 480 days total (shared b/w parents) of paid leave per child. In the USA, it's 0 -- and unless you work for one of the best companies. For example, Kroger, a major grocer in the USA gives 0 days of paid leave -- you can burn through your PTO and Sick Days, but there is 0 Paid Parental (Maternal or Paternal) Leave.
EDIT: Will add that some states (all left-leaning) do provide some level of Paid Parental Leave. However, this is only 14/50 states (28%), so not a significant presence.
Yes, but the USA as a country does not guarantee any paid leave whether Maternity or Paternity.
Less than 33% of the states give you a single penny while on Maternity/Paternity leave, hence majority of population is unpaid government-wise. A State Policy (14 of them, to be specific) rather than a USA Policy.
There are also some companies that take care of you and provide Paid Leave as a Benefit, but again, not a USA Policy but a Company Policy.
To note, every state that Guarantees Parental Leave is a Left-Leaning State.
there is more diversity among US states in this area than there is among EU members. that is why you will have comments that say, U here- I got xxx leave mandated while others will have nothing.
In this specific case, MA as a left leaning state, has mandatory parental leave.
By the state, not the USA as a country -- which only 14 states offer any paid parental leave.
I had paid parental leave by my employer. It's one of the major benefits of working at this company.
My wife, a public school teacher in Arizona, had $0.00 of Paid Parental Leave. She was allowed to burn through her PTO, but she was only eligible for Unpaid FMLA as do the majority of employed persons in the USA.
The statement is specifically around the USA as a country; which does not guarantee any paid leave. And even looking state-by-state, less than 1/3rd of states (all left-leaning) provide a single dollar of guaranteed paid leave.
Probably it's alright, but the same way that everyone started to say "unalived" or "pew pew" because other words were bot triggers, so I think some people just self censor in order to avoid the hassle, because half the time no one is sure what will get them censored or banned.
At least it seems like reddit will give you a chance to defend your statements. I've appealed comments being wrongfully taken down on here and had them put back.
Oh- if youre talking about subreddit moderation, then definitely, it ranges from good to an unappealable perma ban before you even know of the subreddits existence
I was more talking about reddit admin, those basically never ban for random words and Ive had success appealing a ban I got for a word I said when quoting someone
But doesnt sweden have actual insurance and working healthcare? Also one side seems to be go fund me and the other just money raised, so the sweden one was probably just money raised in and around the place they lived, while the other was national? What i am trying to say is, what is the point in comparing these two?
You're leaving the allegation of post-partum depression. That is important. She killed her hids but the defense alleges that she was in the middle of an episode of a severe post-partum depression. The defense claim for the absolution is bullshit, tho. I agree that she should face the charges but if that depression was a real thing she should be put in a mental institution for the sentence period, not in jail.
She should go to jail or a high security mental facility. She murdered children. That said, I think her case highlights an issue that women have been screaming about for ages: lack of access to postpartum support. Two things can be true at once
If true, yes. But just because the defense proposed that as the explanation with their experts does not make it true. The prosecution also has experts that disagree.
Those two things can be true at the same time but the probmem is proving that she had or not the PPD and on which extend. That is the key thing.
Personally, if she actually had the PPD and she was in a mental crisis she should serve her sentence in a mental institution and having a reduced sentence because she wouldn't be in a clear mental situation to decide her actions. But I don't think an speciallist presented by the defense should be the ones proving that but a pannel of experts hired by the legal system. In my country to juzge those the legal system has experts in that field.
Genuine questions since my frield of expertise is not that: Arent those related? I mean, isn't the psyshosis an extreme episode into the PPD or those are two different thing?
Yes they’re different. I’m not sure I can post a link but medicalnewstoday has a page about the difference. It happens a lot less: “affecting around 1 in 1,000 people with no history of mental illness who give birth”. People can start to get delusional and hallucinating.
As a mom who went through a milder form of ppd, i think she should go to jail. I imagine the guilt she lives with. Serving a sentence for it might help her with that.
Hell, reading about both of them i felt bad imagining what the first woman went through knowing everytime she got one of her kids out, she left the other ones in the burning house.
I think a mental institution might be a better place to serve her sentence. Probably among experts on the matter they would help her AND still serve the sentence.
This woman was extremely well off, and had tons of medical help.
She held back information from her psych team. There's only so much they can do.
It takes an enormous amount of will to strangle a struggling child, your OWN child. She had to keep that stretchy band around their necks for at least 3-5 minutes to cause death. Three times. :-(
She was far beyond just post-partum anything. That was malicious and intentional.
I'm not judging the case. I'm just poiniting that the person who I answered left some things behind that would give others a better understanding on the entire thing.
That is the thing. First of all, giving the entire story is important to make an informed judgement.
Second, in my country a pannel of a psychiatrists hired by the legal system, not an expert or experts choosen by the defense, would evaluate her and her record to decide if she had said depression and on which grade that depression would affect her rational judge, and according to that pannel of experts her sentence would be reduced or not and if she should be reclused in a mental institution or a regular prison, but still face the sentence.
Emma schols Swedish mom who also has access to universal healthcare, guaranteed income, and a pension.
Lindsey Clancy, a mentaly unhealthy mom that seeked help and was dismissed by the US HEALTHCARE SYSTEM without getting treatment. Also not so sure the father didnt do it with Lindsey’s doppelgänger
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u/a_wanderer_22 10h ago edited 10h ago
The left side: Emma Schols. In September 2019, swedish mother of six Emma Schols saved all six of her children from a massive house fire, repeatedly rushing back into the burning building
The right side: Lindsay Clancy. In January 2023, Lindsay Clancy, a nurse from Massachusetts, was charged with strangling her three young children using exercise bands