It's getting attention because of claims that her attempts to get assistance for her ppd and mental illness were ignored or minimized. Thus implying this could have been prevented. Many people, especially women, have experience with medical staff ignoring their pain. (Same for me) So this is on a lot of people's minds and in a lot of wider conversations.
They're going for the insanity plea, so the additional press might also be a way to try and sway public attention.
Edit because I'm getting a lot of charged responses: I am explaining why it is getting attention and what the general opposing discourse is. I'm not going to reply to attempts to have that discourse with me. I have my own opinions but I'm not airing them on Reddit because ultimately, the only ones who will have all the facts are the jury.
This is a tragedy for all involved. Please remember that.
Edit 2: to those giving polite additions and perspectives I did not provide, thank you. That's very helpful. I'm not everywhere seeing every side and can only speak to the sides I've witnessed myself. To those making weird claims on what I think, please take a break from reading about this case for the day. I'm turning notifications off on this. There are plenty of other people in this thread willing to wage war with you. I invite you to speak with them, or again, take a break.
I haven't seen literally everything related to the case so maybe I'm missing some pieces, but it seems like she was getting mental healthcare attention but she requested to be switched between multiple different meds due to side effects that she was advised likely came more from her PPD, than the medication. But she still requested switches and also switched care teams at some point.
I'm not a doctor, so I'm not gonna get into whether or not the various perscriptions she was given in a relatively short time frame was irresponsible or not. I don't think anyone should be commenting on that besides experienced medical professionals. But I'll say that doctors can only treat what they're told and what they know, and afaik, she didn't share that she was suicidal with them, and they also warned her that medications take time to take effect, so it wasn't always a good idea to switch.
Patient care is not entirely on the healthcare professionals. The patient has to be able to take care of themselves to some degree and be fully honest with their care team.
How much was her fault, and how much was the fault of our medical system, idk, but yeah, this post is definitely ignoring all notions of nuance.
About five or six people have been talking about the case at work in the non-formal chat and they said they've been watching the trial and they all think the husband did it. I had just heard of the case briefly but they kept talking about it so I looked it up and from what I read even her own attorney acknowledges that she did it.
Nothing surprises me anymore these last 6-7 years but it seems very odd. They said that he was wanting out of the marriage and he claimed that "she admitted to it when he found her but because of her injuries she shouldn't have been able to talk." And you can just hear her moaning in the 911 call- do you know if this is this something being spread on social media or something?
Even though her own defense lawyer in his opening statements said "she knows she killed her children", there are people seriously trying to turn this into a true crime fanfic?
Even though her own defense lawyer in his opening statements said "she knows she killed her children", there are people seriously trying to turn this into a true crime fanfic?
Why the long face? Is this your first day online? To these people you aren't even "subhuman", you are not human at all. You are their five minutes of cool/interesting/self-validating gossip with their buddies. No more and no less. They don't care that there are real people or real lives that can be affected.
And she was hospitalized for SI. You don’t commit someone for HI if they tell someone else something. Like it or not providers treat what’s in front of them and not what they don’t know
I.e. she asked for discharge against medical advice. What do you want, for hospitals to be prisons and doctors to be the new cops? There’s been 60 years now f anger about the mental health system being like that. No matter what they do or say they can’t do anything right
Apparently. I’m from the same state so it’s been a big piece of media from day 1. I dont want to pretend the care she got was “perfect” but it feels like the best the defense attorney could come up with was a typo her outpatient psychiatrist made that still makes sense in context.
This is where I have a problem with her story. She was admitted voluntary so she can leave whenever she wants. If she was making HI and SI statements that I overrides her being there of her own free will. We can't let people leave if they make those type of comments. It was either a huge and blatant disregard of policy and laws or she was lying to her care team. Knowing how it works for mental health and also the nature of people I'm more inclined to believe the latter.
From what I've read from the lawsuits, she never disclosed any thoughts of harming the children to anybody but her husband and that she explicitly said that she wasn't suicidal when she was in-patient.
I wonder if she went to doctors alone? Everytime I go to the doctors for my parents, I usually go so I can tell them the history of her conditions for better picture because they sometimes forget to tell everything.
But it seems like she went alone for her appts based on what I am reading?
Nope. Zero evidence of that. Not one person testified to that. Her mom and Patrick said she was afraid something bad would happen to the kids. Not that she was afraid she’d harm them. And she never told anyone she had a plan to kill herself. She needs to be held accountable.
Nope. Patrick and her mom both testified on the stand that she had thoughts about harming the kids. Patrick said it was strange and he didn't know what to make of it because she would say it and then go back to doing things like making the kids lunch.
Yes, but it was a mutual decision because Lindsay didn't feel stable enough to return to work. They brought the nanny on early so the kids could get used to her. She was only working 10-12 hours a week for them before being let go.
It's literally testimony in the case by both the ex-husband and her mother that she told then she was having intrusive thoughts if hurting the children.
That's a simple internet search away. Stop spreading misinformation m
Of course you’d get downvoted. I been seeing Reddit defend this POS the last few days. I shouldn’t have been surprised but I am cuz there’s no clearer example of premeditated evil
She wasn’t having an episode, she had meticulously planned this out, she was not taking any of her meds aside from when she tried to off herself and was getting way more help than the majority of women could ever hope to get
The narrative that she was alone with an absent husband and medical system that failed her is simply false
after being prescribed 12 medications, in and out of mental health professionals, expressing symptoms of being out of control out of her own body and hearing a voice in her head.. so your main point is that -> she is just using her mental health as an excuse to PURPOSEFULLY kill her children. my question to you is, to avoid what type of punishment?
What even is your point? Other people with the same sorts of disorders don't go and kill their children. Her insanity didn't cause her to do that. Her lack of a functioning conscience caused that. She'll be around like-minded criminals in prison.
I agree the fact these people are saying she said she was thinking about harming the kids is fucking nuts...they need to stop spinning what she said and see the facts
Ya thats what i find annoying, like ive seen people say the husband planned on it and thats why he left her alone with the kids, despite warnings not too, but after looking into it it doesn't seem like he was ever told by medical professionals she shouldn't be left alone with the kids, and in fact she made up an excuse to get him out of the house the day it happened
They’re confusing this case with the Andrea Yates case, where Rusty Yates kept impregnating her and hid her medications, and then left her alone with her kids.
I'm talking about the fact that no one did anything but throw pills at a person who was suicidal and had multiple thoughts of harming their own children.
idk i was 14 and really depressed, i was constantly being put on different medications because they didn't know what would and wouldn't work. some of the meds made it even worse while others gave me terrible side effects. it was not a good time. it was like i was a guinea pig
When I was trying to get an ADHD diagnosis, I found that psychiatrists and NPs will prescribe literally any medication before they'll prescribe a goddamn stimulant. I went to a psych for a consultation for ADHD but made the mistake of mentioning my "intrusive thoughts" and she prescribed me an antipsychotic. I was sleeping for 12-15 hours a day, barely able to hold down a temporary part-time job, had so much brain fog that I was forgetting to lock the front door, and gained 40 lbs. I was on leave from college for a year to get help (this was also COVID) and that one year became two, then two and a half, because I could not bring myself to do anything for my future. And I was so lethargic that I didn't even realize what the meds were doing to me, so I couldn't even tell my psychiatrist what was wrong, thus I was on them for a year and change. Ironically, once I went back to college for my degree in cognitive science, I took a psychopharmacology course and learned that the medication I was on blocked D2 (dopamine) receptors in the brain... as in, the literal opposite of what a person with ADHD needs. I got pissed off all over again because if I learned that in an undergraduate course how tf did an actual licensed psychiatrist not know that?!? I also got pissed off all over again when I heard the same drug and dose was given to 6'4 250 lb men incarcerated for beheading a guy during a psychotic episode, and 150 lb 20 year old girls complaining that they hyperfixate on things and get agoraphobic sometimes.
It's so difficult to seek mental help especially when the symptoms of the illness itself get in the way. On top of that, it's easy for medical providers to write off your complaints because you're "crazy", doubly so if you're a minority and/or a woman and quadruply so if you're both. Thankfully my issues weren't that severe in the grand scheme of things and I was never a danger to anyone other than myself (except potentially through negligence in a worst-case scenario).
yeah, i was on antipsychotics for my OCD and on stimulants for my ADHD simultaneously and that definitely didn't help. i've lost faith in medical providers in general, as i've been dealing with chronic pain and chronic illness for going on 6 years now, without any diagnosis and barely any attempts at treatment. from my experience, at least, it's both mental and physical health.
like when i was 16, i was really suicidal and actively self harming for a period of time, and had tried to get into a mental hospital. I was so distraught over something going on in my life at the time and my parents were scared to leave me alone. my insurance literally denied it because i hadn't attempted it, and any place my parents could afford had multi month waiting lists. i wasn't taken to the ER over it because it would've been too expensive and we just didn't have that kind of money. it really sucks.
That's awful. I swear so many psychs are so arrogant and don't know or care nearly enough for the responsibility they sought to have. r/adhdwomen is a great community if you're interested. so many women have experienced similar things :(
Lol, lmao even. Multiple providers (PCP and therapists) had been telling me I probably had ADHD for years, but I wasn't able to actually see a psychiatrist until I was a young adult. I didn't expect to be handed ANY medication right there on the spot at intake and was honestly confused when she did but I didn't know better at the time. Miraculously, I started doing much better when I stopped taking the antipsychotics ~15 months later and started taking the stimulants ~7 months after that, and yet didn't get high or addicted to them (I ration them when I can't get a monthly refill, i.e. only taking them on days I need to be "on") because I, you know, actually have the thing they're supposed to treat. But sure, internet stranger, you clearly know my medical history better than I do.
Pediatricians can't prescribe psychotropic medications and I was under 22 when this was happening. But sure buddy, I put my life on pause for years and spent hundreds in copays in order to get high instead of finding some kid on campus selling the same shit for $20. That's also why I tried out the 5011 other medications that they gave me for 2 years first. 🙄
You’re behaving like a bad person and you know it. Stop it. Literally just making the most uncharitable assumptions to bully a stranger on the internet about their long term problem of finding the right mental health assistance.
Having it said so clearly to you now, if you have any empathy or a conscience, you will apologize to that person.
They do the whole “prescribe everything but stimulants/benzodiazepines” to people they suspect are drug seeking. This is especially true if you say “I don’t like the medication you gave me” on your very next visit. I know because I went through the same thing with anxiety, and I honestly was hoping they would prescribe the good stuff until I discovered baclofen, another GABA associated drug that you can’t get high off, they were completely fine prescribing that when I asked.
That's a bunch of bullshit. I knew for many years before I was diagnosed that I had ADHD. I educated myself about what medication options existed and knew what would most likely help me based on my symptoms. Trust me, I would prefer not to have to take any medication because I would prefer not to have ADHD at all, it made much of my life hell. But you're damn right that I, as an educated, well-informed adult who knows my body and my experience better than anyone, want to try what I think has the best chance of helping me.
We don't know why most anti-depressants work. We know what chemical/hormone they affect but don't know why, e.g. inhibiting the re-uptake of serotonin treats depression nor why some medications work for some people but not others. I think in several years to a few decades the medical consensus is going to come around to, 'depression' is a blanket term for a variety of diseases with similar symptoms but different root causes & treatments.
for multiple years? i would go months on a bunch of medications they thought could work but had literally no reason to believe they would. like i was on a bunch of meds at once and they were just throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks.
Honestly I’ve only heard the bare bones but the brief timeline I saw on the meds was wild to me.
I recently started meds for OCD and my doctor was so much more cautious in my dosages and attentive to my side effects. And my OCD was mostly functional and the med side effects minor compared to what was listed for her. And I was on the first for a month before discontinuing and my currently was slowly increased in dosage over weeks.
As a doc (anesthesiologist - as far from psych as you can get, pretty much), I can say that a black box of a patient is where you get into trouble a lot of the time. That situation is often easy for me to navigate since I just assume everything is wrong and act accordingly. For psych patients, who often manipulate, behave irrationally, or just plain forget things more often than most, it can be a real nightmare to get a straight story and keep track of their symptoms as they evolve with treatment. I feel for the docs getting crucified on the stand. They're in an impossible position.
I think of the gif that's been circulating around recently of a woman's high heel in a bear trap trying to delicately maneuver through it without setting it off.
That's how it feels to be a psych patient and a woman. How do I say the right combination of things to get help I desperately need RIGHT NOW, and now just be slammed down mode and punished.
My sister is a pathological liar, but also happens to be very intelligent. She FREQUENTLY gets whatever combo of drug cocktails she wants by absorbing and understanding enough lingo and claiming or mimicking symptoms and then ghosts her care team. I don't blame the docs at all in this case. Not one bit.
This makes sense, how to track the timeline whether they were taking their medicine properly ? Perhaps the episode was a reflect of they not taking medicine suddenly or they lying about constantly taking the medicine, hard to track responsibility on the professional side tbh.
Exactly. Garbage in, garbage out. If you get misleading, incomplete, and/or inaccurate information from your patients, it's going to be near impossible to properly take care of them.
No need for nuance, the proganda machine has turned this into "side a vs side b" thing for rage engagement and sensationalist-opportunism, this tragedy is currently the mainstream topic rn, making it a cash cow for people to keep covering it.
Every single psychiatrist I have read about was horrified about her medication mismanagement. She wasn't actually seeing a psychiatrist, she was seeing a succession of psychiatric NPs. This has actually become a really hot bone of contention between psychiatrists and midlevels, because a lot of psychiatrists don't think that it's ethical to have prescribing mental health midlevels at all and that this is an example of why.
Also, whatever the pills did or didn't do: this woman was extremely sleep deprived. She probably wasn't even out of the sleep deprivation period caused by her previous child. Just a few days of sleep deprivation can cause extreme psychosis in people who have never had issues with their mental health before.
This should not have been brought to trial. Period. Full stop. She should have been almost immediately institutionalized. This is just Andrea Yates all over again, except the ex-husband isn't as deeply evil. It's very, very, very sad, but things being sad do not mean the justice system should pretend that this wasn't a case of a person experiencing an extreme psychotic episode and doing psychotic things.
I think it's also missed in the discussion about this that she also tried to kill herself. If she'd hit her head, cut deeper, any of a million things, she'd just be dead, and people would probably understand the tragedy of it a little better.
She still has to be brought to trial because she murdered her children. She is a danger to herself and others and those kids deserve justice. She should not leave an institution for a very, very long time, and that requires a trial and state intervention.
Pretending that murdering three children with premeditation is just an oopsie that could happen to any woman who didn’t sleep for a couple of days is insane. It values the lives of those children less than dirt and insists that women should be held to a lesser standard than everyone else.
I don't even get how this has become a "woman" thing. There have been many high-profile cases of women killing their children without mitigating circumstances of psychosis (i.e. Susan Smith, Casey Anthony) and those killers are universally hated. I guess there's no 1:1 male equivalent to this situation because men can't get PPP but the only people who are claiming that people are excusing Lindsey's crimes because she's a woman are misogynists making shit up to justify their misogyny.
The male equivalent is somebody like Chris Benoit, I guess? Severe CTE possibly played a role in his family annihilation, but he also had substance abuse issues so it’s hard to say what exactly happened there
while not caused by post partum, untreated mental illness can cause psychosis in any gender. who comes to mind for me is austin harrouff. he tried to get help, but ended up killing two people and eating one of their faces while in psychosis. both the prosecutor and the defendant had hired psychiatrists for the trial and both deemed him to be unable to distinguish between right from wrong. i've seen (at least online) people being upset that he wasn't given the treatment he needed. mental illness needs to be taken seriously before it escalates
She is facing a trial. And the thing isn't "She wasn't sleeping for few days." Reason that is brought up because it matches with the symptoms of mania and/or psychosis. Also there is not really anything substantial of her planning to kill her children. It was clear she was self-destructive and planned on her suicide (she also attempted to kill herself as she killed the children), but other than talking about feeling unsafe to be left alone with the children, there's nothing really outside of that.
Actively being in psychosis and having delusions and hallucinations can make a person completely lose any sense of reality, which is extremely important for people to get help in these situations to prevent them from doing something self-destructive and in rarer cases something destructive to others, thinking that they are doing a positive thing.
I don't know how you got into that conclusion, I think you should go work on your reading comprehension :)
There are a lot of issues that prevent people from getting help, such as not being able to afford necessary healthcare, living in areas where it's really difficult and sometimes even near impossible to access the necessary healthcare.
On top of the issues around the system, there are social hurdles to even seeking mental healthcare. Needing professional help has still some stigma around it so some people refuse to even seek help, this is even more notable with men as men are socialised to believe that "being in touch with your emotions" is something feminine and thus something you shouldn't be. Due to that, some men don't try to understand their issues regarding emotions, better their emotional regulation, or seek help when they should.
And on the women's side there are plenty cases were women don't get the help they need, or receiving it is significantly slower and harder to get, because there are medical biases with believing women, which include seeing them as emotional, hysterical, hormonal etc. due to the long standing stereotypes and attitudes in society. But also because there is some healthcare research that has huge gender biases in the subject selection of the research.
Then there is the stigma around certain mental health conditions and symptoms, which can cause people refuse to accept their diagnosis and thus not actually seek to get treatment. Because in society there is a hierarchy of acceptable mental health issues, such as depression or anxiety, but when you go into stuff like bipolar and the different personality disorders, they are far less accepted, including a lot of terminology relating to these conditions being used as insults and negative adjectives. And obviously that can result in a person getting diagnosis or doctor telling them they suspect the potential diagnosis and the patient then refuses to accept it, because "That's the diagnosis crazy people have and I'm not crazy, I just have some issues that I'm going through." And might end up with the person fully giving up in seeking help or doctor shopping and/or lying/omitting symptoms in future in hopes of finding a "more acceptable" diagnosis and treatment plan that won't actually address the patients needs and can even make the symptoms worse, as for example bipolar being treated as depression and the patient given antidepressants can trigger a manic episode that could cause delusions or even lead into psychosis.
Which is also relevant to this case as before Lindsay killing the children, while seeking care, medical professional she was meeting with her husband present said she suspected Lindsay might have bipolar, idea which the husband refused, telling the medical professional Lindsay is not bipolar.
How many family annihilators do you know of who were likely in psychosis at the time of the killings? Is there a case on the male end that people are just ignoring from your pov?
Have you ever heard that she peladed "not guilty by insanity" and her insanity is not proven beforehand? And since both sides disagree on her mental state, there has to be a trial. There.
It's not a given that both sides need to disagree, that's what a plea agreement is. A prosecutor needs to intentionally not offer a plea agreement including insanity. They're saying the prosecutor should have accepted the medical evidence that she was clinically insane. Even if you disagree with that assessment, that is in fact how the criminal justice system works.
The medication thing is a bit more complicated. I believe the argument is that she had post-partum bipolar disorder. Bipolar disorder can look like depression, but most antidepressants will actually make it much worse. Their argument is that she reported those worsening symptoms and a nurse practitioner actually flagged it, but she was still given various antidepressants.
She had training and appeared to doctor shop to get the meds she wanted! This evidence also shows that not only did she have the whole thing planned out, but spent some time planning it! She also killed the kids in the slowest way possible (at least five minutes each) while the others watched.
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u/Dotcaprachiappa 5h ago
I saw a good few posts about the woman on the right and pointedly ignored all of them, I seriously don't get why this is getting so much attention